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(02-15-2022, 01:08 AM)SpinoRex Wrote: So according to you as the heaviest lion for kenyan lions was 204 kg from Smuts data the 237 kg one and 272 kg (both scientific) are also not reliable.
Can you show me the lion of 237 kg, please? What is the source and the location?
I think he is referring to Puyol. Dr. Ingela said that the scale went up to 250 kg of which 13 kg was the weighing base.
(02-15-2022, 07:39 AM)Khan85 Wrote: I think he is referring to Puyol. Dr. Ingela said that the scale went up to 250 kg of which 13 kg was the weighing base.
As far I remember Puyol weighed 235 kg including stomach content. I am not aware of any new report or weight about it. Can you please share the source?
(02-15-2022, 07:39 AM)Khan85 Wrote: I think he is referring to Puyol. Dr. Ingela said that the scale went up to 250 kg of which 13 kg was the weighing base.
As far I remember Puyol weighed 235 kg including stomach content. I am not aware of any new report or weight about it. Can you please share the source?
Quote:Beside the explanation there is no doubt a solitary cat will eat significantly more than a pride male when they have a dead carcass. The problem is most solitary lions wont survive in africa.
This is incorrect, a Pride male will eats his fill just like a solitary cat. On top of that, they have far more access to food that they don't have to hunt themselves.
Generally a kill that isn't tree stashed is going to be scavenged as soon as the big cat leaves.
Quote:But what after that? Then the pride will eat and therefore there will be less meat available overall for the male lion(s). I think you could guess how much adult females, subadults will eat from the carcass.
If it's a large enough to where the cat can come back to feed on it for multiple days then that is an advantage for the solitary cat but it's only good for a couple of days and the solitary cat once gorged is generally uninterested after that. Not to mention, like solitary cats, Coalition males will also guard large kills and keep others away if they desire.
Quote:Nonterretorial males killed more frequently adult bufallos, which also contributed to the available meat. I dont have to tell you that there is a significant difference when a whole pride have a bufallo and a lone lion or a small coalition have a bufallo. Also when you look at it some solitary lions are really massive(its rare) but those 2-3 lion coalitions are really heavy. At least heavier than most pride males but that isnt a problem.
Probably because they're forced to prey on them since pride males territory encompasses a wider variety of animals which is why they chose the territory to defend in the first place. Not to mention they have the help of the entire pride which will also contribute to a wider variety of prey items. And since the table posted by you doesn't mention how this data was obtained, I'm guessing scat with occasional carcass viewing which wouldn't have anything to do with what the Pride males were actually hunting as opposed to what they are eating. Since it's already been discussed how they usurp pride kills, this makes total sense for them to have a larger variety.
And no, non territorial males aren't heavier than pride males. If you have to mention it being "rare" that means you already know that isn't the case outside of an occasional outlier which would have more to do with it being a large, young male who's size will only increase once he takes over a pride. It's pretty simple, pride holding males do better than nomadic ones.
Quote:You believe a (imaginable) solitary lion will not eat more than a lion with a pride? Also it means a solitary lion will not eat more than a pride male when he has a whole carcass for himself right? Note these are nonterretorial males and not solitary lions with a terretory. Such nonterretorial males as i said wont be sucessfull (with some exceptions). Many scavengers and deadly enemies with the likes of hyenas and of course lion prides. They have not a own place. The reason why most of them dont make it alone (in Madikwe for example)
I believe a solitary Lion will not eat more than a pride Lion throughout it's life. It's not really debatable since it's already specified how they lose body condition. And Hyenas aren't "deadly enemies," they are little threat to a pride and no threat to a coalition. Yes they can usurp from a small number of females but this is rare. Other Lions on the other hand are definitely a threat which is why having a back up is so important. Something non territorial males don't have unless they form coalition and if that becomes the case they don't stay non territorial for long, they generally overtake a pride once capable.
Quote:So you see some nomadic lions like Kalamas, Ximpoko/Mabande, Mabande/Old Birmingham Male. Also i find it hard to believe that its a coincidence that nearly all record sized males were not pride males but nomadic ones (with some having a alliance).
Exactly which "record" sized males are you talking about?
The problem is that these recent claims from private reserves aren't reliable and of course have led to quite a bit of misinformation. The real data we have certainly don't back that claim, comparing Timbavati Lion weight claims to Smuts actual Kruger weights for instance is a huge stretch. You must take into account the validity of the source as well as the details presented.
And even the males you mentioned still had coalition partners and prides. You seem to think that these males are permanent fixtures in prides but that's not how it works. In fact a lot of them may even have multiple prides. Pride males come and go as they please with the pride, they still patrol, they generally aren't going to be with the pride unless mating or scavenging their kill.
It comes down to survival of the fittest.
Males #1 concern is breeding, it's their primal drive and they can only do that with females. Females live in prides and thus the males must rule them, the strongest males rule these prides until stronger males come in and take over. These prides live in territories that produce the most prey which is why they chose to raise cubs there.
Quote:In terms of power the lion if serious doesnt even have to move from its place(2-3 lionesses in a serious mode are enough to overwhelm a male lion)
2/3 Lioness will not displace a pride male, in fact I've seen single pride males run off 10-12 Lioness from kills. There is no question, the male decides when he's done and if others can feed.
Quote:while a tiger is solitary and when having a terretory will be most of the time heavier than a pride male lion. Though im interested how tigers are doing it as nonterretorial cats.
Like any non territorial cat, they'll not do as well since the territories that possess the most prey and females are ruled by larger males. They'll need to live on the outskirts and buffer areas to put on mass and gain skill then possibly they'll come back to challenge but most of the time they are never seen again.
Quote:A NT male lion who lives like a T male will have without any doubt a higher food intake than a T male. The difference was around 45% in food intake.
A NT can't like like a T male, this is the whole point. And it's why their whole drive is to rule a pride of their own.
Ruling a pride doesn't mean living with them 24/7 it just means the breeding rights and territory is theirs.
I dont have the time really to discuss unnecessary things as well im pretty concerned about your behavior in denying datas. I got the infos/sources regarding the weights of those heavy lions now. The study includes all types of preys (the one they killed themselves and pride kills) and its so detailed with large samples that i do not have to add anything to it. And the fact we are talking about solitary cats with no terretory should ring a alarm basically.
As i said using the datas and a bit of logical understanding should clear it. What you are mentioning is that what i mentioned (on average) having a safe live with a pride with not having much more meat than the MDR but not more less. So a bit more consistent.
*Now regarding the weights*
The males Ximpoko and Mabande (both nomads) were collared and weighed by the Leopard research Project and Ximpoko later confirmed by the reserve headquarter and ecologist(scientist) who was the supervisor including the vets. Im especially more concerned when you are saying that its stretched. Because lions of 260 kg (5.5 years old, normal length) where weighed out of a sample of 15 and even one of 272 kg withoutbeing gorged as i know.
About the males from Madikwe. Well the job was done at the end by contacting the reserve management/HQ , which revealed that Kwande was estimated and actually the batia males was the heaviest lion weighed there. (Still waiting for robs email)
So according to you as the heaviest lion for kenyan lions was 204 kg from Smuts data the 237 kg one and 272 kg (both scientific) are also not reliable. You can have doubts, which i can clearly understand for any weight of that class (no matter scientific...) but claiming them as not reliabile isnt based on anything.
Ximpoko was part of a coalition and after he was poached, his partner, Mabande joined another Birmingham male and took over the Trilogy males pride and had cubs with the Ross pride. So again, I’m not sure where you’re getting the idea that these males didn’t have prides.
Also, don’t put words in my mouth. When I quote smuts it’s because he has the largest data set available with far more reliable information. I don’t blindly accept claims on record lions from private reserves that came from 2nd hand sources. Which generally serves me well or else we’d just add Caesar, Keandwe, Leingmara or the zimbabwe males.
Because it was stated: "The Leopard research project darted the two nomadic males to gather information on the cats and to check the collar of the younger male, to ensure that the collar is still fitted correctly and that it is not causing him any discomfit. The plan is to keep the collar on him until March next year so that they can gather as much information as possible (such as the size of their territory and the impact they have in that area)."
Regarding the lion ximpoko i would like to know how its a 2nd hand soruce. Also regarding the other lions nothing was confirmed and in fact even denied by the HQ, but the batia male lion was the heaviest they weighed (came as a 3year old sub adult from Ethosha).
The data base with the likes of HuBerry are as reliable. Im interested how a male lion from the southern areas with visibly larger dimensions and better age cant be 20 kg heavier. As i said your comparison has no difference i did regarding the kenya lion.
Doubts are always reasonable but if something i confirmed especially by a scientist supervisor and vets then there is no debate.
02-15-2022, 07:58 PM( This post was last modified: 02-15-2022, 08:13 PM by SpinoRex )
(02-15-2022, 02:18 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(02-15-2022, 12:40 AM)SpinoRex Wrote: I said before the calculated estimates alone such as MDR are useless. But why? Smuts is assuming that the Kruger lions are larger than the Kenya males, which i doubt in terms of skeleton size(at least not that much). But generally a minimum daily food intake should be in that range but cant give you any idea of the true food intake of a specific lion population.
The numbers labeled as MDR are estimates based on estimates and talking about the minimum(useless to determine the food intake accurately for collared lions as its giving the c. minimum food intake). I was talking about the real food intake of those lions and the clear cut statement from the study(T males did not consume more or less than the estimated MDR, but NT males did) when it comes to prey killed and food intake. One thing that should be noted is that Terretorial males also obtained significantly more meat from the carcass they killed themselves, showing similaritties to nonterretorial males when behaving like them.
But NT males wont be heavier overall with some exceptions or small alliances (which arent fully solitary but still its more or less close to it as killling preys is much easier)
The numbers from the nepal study ate between 14-19 kg on average but calculating the average its c.16 kg for females and c.19 kg for males.
Can you show the specific part in the study of Smuts where he says that? As far I know, Smuts did not calculated any food intake. I want to see the study please.
I am with Pckt on this, it do not make sense that a territorial dominant male, that can or not hunt when he wants, that can go and take any prey from the pride that he wants and that had a much regular prey base, is going to weight less than a male that need to hunt for himself, that do not have a regular prey base and that will have a successfull hunting rate lower than the one of the pride.
Again, in the Nepal study, no one says that females is 16 kg and males is 19 kg, that is not stated in ANY part of the study of Sunquist. In fact, Sunquist himself told be to use 14 kg for both sexes, with no discrimination. I personally estimated that 14 kg will be "ok" for females and 17 kg will be "ok" for males, for stomach content corrections, taking in cound that M-91 (the biggest male from Panna), one of the biggest males captured in India, did had only 19 kg in a full night of feedings, so regular males probably ate less.
I confused it. It isnt smuts study but that doenst matter.
Everytime when we talk about these nonterretorial onse. Remember that they arent even ->terretorial<- ones and at the same time are solitary big cats and that in africa. One must remember that nomadic lion alliances are also nonterretorial males and therefore are included in the study. Those factors for pride lions dont necessary mean being heavy but being more consistent in a healthy and good range, which is the reason they didnt eat more than the MDR. IDK the difference will be big especially talking about a male who is experienced in hunting.
Nonterretorial males did it clearly (13 kg vs 9 kg meat, c.45%). Now if those comparisons are made (comparing solitary big cats and pride big cats) then everyone should be aware of the differences in their food intake and general life style. I dont know how heavy nonterretorials males and small alliances are when they are doing it but they are clearly heavier than pride males. Its even more interesting when you include the fact that nonterretorial males had definetely more to do with hyenas and scavengers (Many of their kills were scavenged by prides as well)
Quote:Spotted hyaenas were rarely present in high numbers atkills made by the different lion group types. They were present least often at kills made by territorial males( X =0.9/kill, N =33 kills, and most often at kills made by nonterritorial males ( X =3.2/kill, N =37 kills).
So once you are comparing a solitary lion with his own area(like a terretory) or something close to it(without living in permanent serious danger).... it will be without any shadow bigger than a pride male. And there is also no doubt because of the sample size (food intake, meat available, prey killed)
Quote:I personally estimated that 14 kg will be "ok" for females and 17 kg will be "ok" for males, for stomach content corrections, taking in cound that M-91 (the biggest male from Panna), one of the biggest males captured in India, did had only 19 kg in a full night of feedings, so regular males probably ate less.
I looked at the average meat consumed on average / day and added it up with the other numbers by looking at the sample size. Also there were only 2 males (M105, 102) analyzed and both consumed 19 kg on average for 3 days looking at the other paper.
But let NT males on the side.... i was more aware of the fact that you assumed tigers eat as much as male lions(no matter what group, even NT males). When you are talking about a terretorial male tiger it wont only live better than most male lions (africa and india compared) but will have also advantages in terms of prey.
A male tiger having a own terretory is basically a NT males who did it(sucessfull). Of course there are other factors, which make it more obvious(the difference) but that alone should do it.
Once a data will be published with terretorial male tigers averaging daily on 9.4 kg i might agree on your point. But in fact that tigers in chitwan overall ate twice as much as a pride males. And before looking at it i checked their dimensions. The chitwan tigers werent special in their frame (length)
(02-15-2022, 07:58 PM)SpinoRex Wrote: I confused it. It isnt smuts study but that doenst matter.
Everytime when we talk about these nonterretorial onse. Remember that they arent even terretorial ones and at the same time are solitary big cats and that in africa. One must remember that nomadic lion alliances are also nonterretorial males and therefore are included in the study. Those factors dont necessary mean being heavy but being more consistent in a healthy and good range, which is the reason they didnt eat more than the MDR.
Nonterretorial males did it clearly (Low and high, 13 kg vs 9 kg meat). Now if those comparisons are made (comparing solitary big cats and pride big cats) then everyone should be aware of the differences in their food intake and general life style. I dont know how heavy nonterretorials males and small alliances are when they are doing it but they are clearly heavier than pride males. Its even more interesting when you include the fact that nonterretorial males had definetely more to do with hyenas and scavengers (Many of their kills were scavenged by prides as well)
Quote:Spotted hyaenas were rarely present in high numbers atkills made by the different lion group types. They were present least often at kills made by territorial males( X =0.9/kill, N =33 kills, and most often at kills made by nonterritorial males ( X =3.2/kill, N =37 kills).
So once you are comparing a solitary lion with his own area(like a terretory) or something close to it(wthout living in permanent serious danger).... it will be without any shadow bigger than a pride male. And there is also no doubt because of the sample size (food intake, meat available, prey killed)
Quote:I personally estimated that 14 kg will be "ok" for females and 17 kg will be "ok" for males, for stomach content corrections, taking in cound that M-91 (the biggest male from Panna), one of the biggest males captured in India, did had only 19 kg in a full night of feedings, so regular males probably ate less.
I looked at the average meat consumed on average / day and added it up with the other numbers by looking at the sample size. Also there were only 2 males (M105, 102) analyzed and both consumed 19 kg on average for 3 days looking at the other paper.
So you were confused with Smuts. Is possible that you are also confused with the entire document conclutions too?
I still can't believe that conclusion about the territorial vs non-territorial. It do not make sense at all, honestly. They are painting a completelly different history about what we know about lions, specially males. Territorial males need to be big and powerfull (and they are) while nomadic are normally smaller and attack in groups to take on the pride members and they grow bigger when they are territorial, with big fat bellies and luxury manes. I think that the paper that you are using need to be analize in deep because there are several factors that to not match.
About your second statement, I am confuse, now you say that a solitary lion will be like a territorial one is there is no serious danger? That IS a territorial lion in that case, and 100% sure that will have a few lionesses with him. Sorry, but that statement do not add anything new.
About the food intake in Nepalese tigers, yes, only two adults males were used in the study of Dr Sunquist, but I do not see in what part of the paper specifically says that those two events were the only ones. Can you show it? Because if you are talking about what he says in page 76 (frist paragraph in the right), those are just 2 examples with males, but are not the only events, and he is putting them as an example to show how much a male can eat in comparison with females (124 kg against 19 kg). Remember that he recorded 38 events, obviously they got more than 2 events from males. Also in Table 20 you can see 26 of those events (remember that when the tigers made a kill, then they weighed the consumption in both, baits and wild kills) and from them 7 are from adult males. So you can see, there are more thant just 2, and also those from Table 20 are just the kills actualy made, we still need to include when they shared kills between males-females-cubs as Sunquist describe, also, in page 76.
In that case is the same event, but we need to remember that in the original article she says that it was around 235 kg and than that amount INCLUDED stomach content, check it:
*This image is copyright of its original author
By the way, this lion is already included in my tables from East African lions since many years already, so no big deal.
Quote:Beside the explanation there is no doubt a solitary cat will eat significantly more than a pride male when they have a dead carcass. The problem is most solitary lions wont survive in africa.
This is incorrect, a Pride male will eats his fill just like a solitary cat. On top of that, they have far more access to food that they don't have to hunt themselves.
Generally a kill that isn't tree stashed is going to be scavenged as soon as the big cat leaves.
Quote:But what after that? Then the pride will eat and therefore there will be less meat available overall for the male lion(s). I think you could guess how much adult females, subadults will eat from the carcass.
If it's a large enough to where the cat can come back to feed on it for multiple days then that is an advantage for the solitary cat but it's only good for a couple of days and the solitary cat once gorged is generally uninterested after that. Not to mention, like solitary cats, Coalition males will also guard large kills and keep others away if they desire.
Quote:Nonterretorial males killed more frequently adult bufallos, which also contributed to the available meat. I dont have to tell you that there is a significant difference when a whole pride have a bufallo and a lone lion or a small coalition have a bufallo. Also when you look at it some solitary lions are really massive(its rare) but those 2-3 lion coalitions are really heavy. At least heavier than most pride males but that isnt a problem.
Probably because they're forced to prey on them since pride males territory encompasses a wider variety of animals which is why they chose the territory to defend in the first place. Not to mention they have the help of the entire pride which will also contribute to a wider variety of prey items. And since the table posted by you doesn't mention how this data was obtained, I'm guessing scat with occasional carcass viewing which wouldn't have anything to do with what the Pride males were actually hunting as opposed to what they are eating. Since it's already been discussed how they usurp pride kills, this makes total sense for them to have a larger variety.
And no, non territorial males aren't heavier than pride males. If you have to mention it being "rare" that means you already know that isn't the case outside of an occasional outlier which would have more to do with it being a large, young male who's size will only increase once he takes over a pride. It's pretty simple, pride holding males do better than nomadic ones.
Quote:You believe a (imaginable) solitary lion will not eat more than a lion with a pride? Also it means a solitary lion will not eat more than a pride male when he has a whole carcass for himself right? Note these are nonterretorial males and not solitary lions with a terretory. Such nonterretorial males as i said wont be sucessfull (with some exceptions). Many scavengers and deadly enemies with the likes of hyenas and of course lion prides. They have not a own place. The reason why most of them dont make it alone (in Madikwe for example)
I believe a solitary Lion will not eat more than a pride Lion throughout it's life. It's not really debatable since it's already specified how they lose body condition. And Hyenas aren't "deadly enemies," they are little threat to a pride and no threat to a coalition. Yes they can usurp from a small number of females but this is rare. Other Lions on the other hand are definitely a threat which is why having a back up is so important. Something non territorial males don't have unless they form coalition and if that becomes the case they don't stay non territorial for long, they generally overtake a pride once capable.
Quote:So you see some nomadic lions like Kalamas, Ximpoko/Mabande, Mabande/Old Birmingham Male. Also i find it hard to believe that its a coincidence that nearly all record sized males were not pride males but nomadic ones (with some having a alliance).
Exactly which "record" sized males are you talking about?
The problem is that these recent claims from private reserves aren't reliable and of course have led to quite a bit of misinformation. The real data we have certainly don't back that claim, comparing Timbavati Lion weight claims to Smuts actual Kruger weights for instance is a huge stretch. You must take into account the validity of the source as well as the details presented.
And even the males you mentioned still had coalition partners and prides. You seem to think that these males are permanent fixtures in prides but that's not how it works. In fact a lot of them may even have multiple prides. Pride males come and go as they please with the pride, they still patrol, they generally aren't going to be with the pride unless mating or scavenging their kill.
It comes down to survival of the fittest.
Males #1 concern is breeding, it's their primal drive and they can only do that with females. Females live in prides and thus the males must rule them, the strongest males rule these prides until stronger males come in and take over. These prides live in territories that produce the most prey which is why they chose to raise cubs there.
Quote:In terms of power the lion if serious doesnt even have to move from its place(2-3 lionesses in a serious mode are enough to overwhelm a male lion)
2/3 Lioness will not displace a pride male, in fact I've seen single pride males run off 10-12 Lioness from kills. There is no question, the male decides when he's done and if others can feed.
Quote:while a tiger is solitary and when having a terretory will be most of the time heavier than a pride male lion. Though im interested how tigers are doing it as nonterretorial cats.
Like any non territorial cat, they'll not do as well since the territories that possess the most prey and females are ruled by larger males. They'll need to live on the outskirts and buffer areas to put on mass and gain skill then possibly they'll come back to challenge but most of the time they are never seen again.
Quote:A NT male lion who lives like a T male will have without any doubt a higher food intake than a T male. The difference was around 45% in food intake.
A NT can't like like a T male, this is the whole point. And it's why their whole drive is to rule a pride of their own.
Ruling a pride doesn't mean living with them 24/7 it just means the breeding rights and territory is theirs.
I dont have the time really to discuss unnecessary things as well im pretty concerned about your behavior in denying datas. I got the infos/sources regarding the weights of those heavy lions now. The study includes all types of preys (the one they killed themselves and pride kills) and its so detailed with large samples that i do not have to add anything to it. And the fact we are talking about solitary cats with no terretory should ring a alarm basically.
As i said using the datas and a bit of logical understanding should clear it. What you are mentioning is that what i mentioned (on average) having a safe live with a pride with not having much more meat than the MDR but not more less. So a bit more consistent.
*Now regarding the weights*
The males Ximpoko and Mabande (both nomads) were collared and weighed by the Leopard research Project and Ximpoko later confirmed by the reserve headquarter and ecologist(scientist) who was the supervisor including the vets. Im especially more concerned when you are saying that its stretched. Because lions of 260 kg (5.5 years old, normal length) where weighed out of a sample of 15 and even one of 272 kg withoutbeing gorged as i know.
About the males from Madikwe. Well the job was done at the end by contacting the reserve management/HQ , which revealed that Kwande was estimated and actually the batia males was the heaviest lion weighed there. (Still waiting for robs email)
So according to you as the heaviest lion for kenyan lions was 204 kg from Smuts data the 237 kg one and 272 kg (both scientific) are also not reliable. You can have doubts, which i can clearly understand for any weight of that class (no matter scientific...) but claiming them as not reliabile isnt based on anything.
Ximpoko was part of a coalition and after he was poached, his partner, Mabande joined another Birmingham male and took over the Trilogy males pride and had cubs with the Ross pride. So again, I’m not sure where you’re getting the idea that these males didn’t have prides.
Also, don’t put words in my mouth. When I quote smuts it’s because he has the largest data set available with far more reliable information. I don’t blindly accept claims on record lions from private reserves that came from 2nd hand sources. Which generally serves me well or else we’d just add Caesar, Keandwe, Leingmara or the zimbabwe males.
Because it was stated: "The Leopard research project darted the two nomadic males to gather information on the cats and to check the collar of the younger male, to ensure that the collar is still fitted correctly and that it is not causing him any discomfit. The plan is to keep the collar on him until March next year so that they can gather as much information as possible (such as the size of their territory and the impact they have in that area)."
Regarding the lion ximpoko i would like to know how its a 2nd hand soruce. Also regarding the other lions nothing was confirmed and in fact even denied by the HQ, but the batia male lion was the heaviest they weighed (came as a 3year old sub adult from Ethosha).
The data base with the likes of HuBerry are as reliable. Im interested how a male lion from the southern areas with visibly larger dimensions and better age cant be 20 kg heavier. As i said your comparison has no difference i did regarding the kenya lion.
Doubts are always reasonable but if something i confirmed especially by a scientist supervisor and vets then there is no debate.
Those lions like leingmara were just chats
First off did I mention Ximpoko as a 2nd hand source?
But considering he was first mentioned as an estimate from an employee who was there then Almero claimed he was weighed under the supervision on him and the vet, I certainly don't put much stock in his weight. But regardless i specifically named 5 Lions that were 2nd sources, claimed to be weighed with weights attached and false references.
Next is your claim of "visibily larger dimensions" which means nothing. You have no idea the dimensions without measuring, especially if you're using photos as proof. If you see them in person, that's at least valid but cherry picking images means nothing.
In that case is the same event, but we need to remember that in the original article she says that it was around 235 kg and than that amount INCLUDED stomach content, check it:
*This image is copyright of its original author
By the way, this lion is already included in my tables from East African lions since many years already, so no big deal.
Also, the chest girth of 126cm is a little small for a 230+kg cat, but does tie in nicely for a 200kg cat so he's probably around that range empty which is still a large boy.
In that case is the same event, but we need to remember that in the original article she says that it was around 235 kg and than that amount INCLUDED stomach content, check it:
*This image is copyright of its original author
By the way, this lion is already included in my tables from East African lions since many years already, so no big deal.
Yes, 235 vs 237, those 2 kg dont make any difference.
Also, Dr. Ingela said that 25% of his weight was food. I think 25% is too high of an estimate for any big cat but that certainly means he was gorged as per observation.
(02-15-2022, 11:35 PM)Khan85 Wrote: Yes, 235 vs 237, those 2 kg dont make any difference.
Also, Dr. Ingela said that 25% of his weight was food. I think 25% is too high of an estimate for any big cat but that certainly means he was gorged as per observation.
This is what happen when estimations are taken as facts (like I said to SpinoRex). Schaller estimated that tigers can eat up to 1/5 (20%) of its own body weight (Schaller, 1967), and latter estimated that lions can eat up to 1/4 (25%) of its own body weight (Schaller, 1972). Of course these are estimations but some people chose to use it just like that, with no other back up.
For example, the biggest food intake for tigers actually recorded is of 35 kg (McDougal, 1977) and for lions is of 33 kg+ (Schaller, 1972; the lion already had some stomach content before start eatingt the bait). If we use the maximum averaged figures acepted for male tigers and lions which are 201 kg and 195 kg respectively, we can say that represent 17.4% and 16.9% respectively. This means that the maximum amount recorded is about the 17% of the body mass of the specimens, that is the difference between real values and estimated values.
This means that IF Puyol was fully gorged, probably weighed as low as c.200 kg, as Pckts says.
Quote:Beside the explanation there is no doubt a solitary cat will eat significantly more than a pride male when they have a dead carcass. The problem is most solitary lions wont survive in africa.
This is incorrect, a Pride male will eats his fill just like a solitary cat. On top of that, they have far more access to food that they don't have to hunt themselves.
Generally a kill that isn't tree stashed is going to be scavenged as soon as the big cat leaves.
Quote:But what after that? Then the pride will eat and therefore there will be less meat available overall for the male lion(s). I think you could guess how much adult females, subadults will eat from the carcass.
If it's a large enough to where the cat can come back to feed on it for multiple days then that is an advantage for the solitary cat but it's only good for a couple of days and the solitary cat once gorged is generally uninterested after that. Not to mention, like solitary cats, Coalition males will also guard large kills and keep others away if they desire.
Quote:Nonterretorial males killed more frequently adult bufallos, which also contributed to the available meat. I dont have to tell you that there is a significant difference when a whole pride have a bufallo and a lone lion or a small coalition have a bufallo. Also when you look at it some solitary lions are really massive(its rare) but those 2-3 lion coalitions are really heavy. At least heavier than most pride males but that isnt a problem.
Probably because they're forced to prey on them since pride males territory encompasses a wider variety of animals which is why they chose the territory to defend in the first place. Not to mention they have the help of the entire pride which will also contribute to a wider variety of prey items. And since the table posted by you doesn't mention how this data was obtained, I'm guessing scat with occasional carcass viewing which wouldn't have anything to do with what the Pride males were actually hunting as opposed to what they are eating. Since it's already been discussed how they usurp pride kills, this makes total sense for them to have a larger variety.
And no, non territorial males aren't heavier than pride males. If you have to mention it being "rare" that means you already know that isn't the case outside of an occasional outlier which would have more to do with it being a large, young male who's size will only increase once he takes over a pride. It's pretty simple, pride holding males do better than nomadic ones.
Quote:You believe a (imaginable) solitary lion will not eat more than a lion with a pride? Also it means a solitary lion will not eat more than a pride male when he has a whole carcass for himself right? Note these are nonterretorial males and not solitary lions with a terretory. Such nonterretorial males as i said wont be sucessfull (with some exceptions). Many scavengers and deadly enemies with the likes of hyenas and of course lion prides. They have not a own place. The reason why most of them dont make it alone (in Madikwe for example)
I believe a solitary Lion will not eat more than a pride Lion throughout it's life. It's not really debatable since it's already specified how they lose body condition. And Hyenas aren't "deadly enemies," they are little threat to a pride and no threat to a coalition. Yes they can usurp from a small number of females but this is rare. Other Lions on the other hand are definitely a threat which is why having a back up is so important. Something non territorial males don't have unless they form coalition and if that becomes the case they don't stay non territorial for long, they generally overtake a pride once capable.
Quote:So you see some nomadic lions like Kalamas, Ximpoko/Mabande, Mabande/Old Birmingham Male. Also i find it hard to believe that its a coincidence that nearly all record sized males were not pride males but nomadic ones (with some having a alliance).
Exactly which "record" sized males are you talking about?
The problem is that these recent claims from private reserves aren't reliable and of course have led to quite a bit of misinformation. The real data we have certainly don't back that claim, comparing Timbavati Lion weight claims to Smuts actual Kruger weights for instance is a huge stretch. You must take into account the validity of the source as well as the details presented.
And even the males you mentioned still had coalition partners and prides. You seem to think that these males are permanent fixtures in prides but that's not how it works. In fact a lot of them may even have multiple prides. Pride males come and go as they please with the pride, they still patrol, they generally aren't going to be with the pride unless mating or scavenging their kill.
It comes down to survival of the fittest.
Males #1 concern is breeding, it's their primal drive and they can only do that with females. Females live in prides and thus the males must rule them, the strongest males rule these prides until stronger males come in and take over. These prides live in territories that produce the most prey which is why they chose to raise cubs there.
Quote:In terms of power the lion if serious doesnt even have to move from its place(2-3 lionesses in a serious mode are enough to overwhelm a male lion)
2/3 Lioness will not displace a pride male, in fact I've seen single pride males run off 10-12 Lioness from kills. There is no question, the male decides when he's done and if others can feed.
Quote:while a tiger is solitary and when having a terretory will be most of the time heavier than a pride male lion. Though im interested how tigers are doing it as nonterretorial cats.
Like any non territorial cat, they'll not do as well since the territories that possess the most prey and females are ruled by larger males. They'll need to live on the outskirts and buffer areas to put on mass and gain skill then possibly they'll come back to challenge but most of the time they are never seen again.
Quote:A NT male lion who lives like a T male will have without any doubt a higher food intake than a T male. The difference was around 45% in food intake.
A NT can't like like a T male, this is the whole point. And it's why their whole drive is to rule a pride of their own.
Ruling a pride doesn't mean living with them 24/7 it just means the breeding rights and territory is theirs.
I dont have the time really to discuss unnecessary things as well im pretty concerned about your behavior in denying datas. I got the infos/sources regarding the weights of those heavy lions now. The study includes all types of preys (the one they killed themselves and pride kills) and its so detailed with large samples that i do not have to add anything to it. And the fact we are talking about solitary cats with no terretory should ring a alarm basically.
As i said using the datas and a bit of logical understanding should clear it. What you are mentioning is that what i mentioned (on average) having a safe live with a pride with not having much more meat than the MDR but not more less. So a bit more consistent.
*Now regarding the weights*
The males Ximpoko and Mabande (both nomads) were collared and weighed by the Leopard research Project and Ximpoko later confirmed by the reserve headquarter and ecologist(scientist) who was the supervisor including the vets. Im especially more concerned when you are saying that its stretched. Because lions of 260 kg (5.5 years old, normal length) where weighed out of a sample of 15 and even one of 272 kg withoutbeing gorged as i know.
About the males from Madikwe. Well the job was done at the end by contacting the reserve management/HQ , which revealed that Kwande was estimated and actually the batia males was the heaviest lion weighed there. (Still waiting for robs email)
So according to you as the heaviest lion for kenyan lions was 204 kg from Smuts data the 237 kg one and 272 kg (both scientific) are also not reliable. You can have doubts, which i can clearly understand for any weight of that class (no matter scientific...) but claiming them as not reliabile isnt based on anything.
Ximpoko was part of a coalition and after he was poached, his partner, Mabande joined another Birmingham male and took over the Trilogy males pride and had cubs with the Ross pride. So again, I’m not sure where you’re getting the idea that these males didn’t have prides.
Also, don’t put words in my mouth. When I quote smuts it’s because he has the largest data set available with far more reliable information. I don’t blindly accept claims on record lions from private reserves that came from 2nd hand sources. Which generally serves me well or else we’d just add Caesar, Keandwe, Leingmara or the zimbabwe males.
Because it was stated: "The Leopard research project darted the two nomadic males to gather information on the cats and to check the collar of the younger male, to ensure that the collar is still fitted correctly and that it is not causing him any discomfit. The plan is to keep the collar on him until March next year so that they can gather as much information as possible (such as the size of their territory and the impact they have in that area)."
Regarding the lion ximpoko i would like to know how its a 2nd hand soruce. Also regarding the other lions nothing was confirmed and in fact even denied by the HQ, but the batia male lion was the heaviest they weighed (came as a 3year old sub adult from Ethosha).
The data base with the likes of HuBerry are as reliable. Im interested how a male lion from the southern areas with visibly larger dimensions and better age cant be 20 kg heavier. As i said your comparison has no difference i did regarding the kenya lion.
Doubts are always reasonable but if something i confirmed especially by a scientist supervisor and vets then there is no debate.
Those lions like leingmara were just chats
First off did I mention Ximpoko as a 2nd hand source?
But considering he was first mentioned as an estimate from an employee who was there then Almero claimed he was weighed under the supervision on him and the vet, I certainly don't put much stock in his weight. But regardless i specifically named 5 Lions that were 2nd sources, claimed to be weighed with weights attached and false references.
Next is your claim of "visibily larger dimensions" which means nothing. You have no idea the dimensions without measuring, especially if you're using photos as proof. If you see them in person, that's at least valid but cherry picking images means nothing.
I think you saw his picture next to a adult female. Not gonna say much and Mabande was considered in his best times also one of the largest lions (he kept up in size with the old birmingham male). Regardless they were definetely over the average. Im not cherry picking. Also its not a proof..... but you get my point
One is from a another source (its from the reserve HQ) and explains it. I saw it from Pantherinae
02-16-2022, 01:32 AM( This post was last modified: 02-16-2022, 01:33 AM by SpinoRex )
(02-15-2022, 11:56 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(02-15-2022, 11:35 PM)Khan85 Wrote: Yes, 235 vs 237, those 2 kg dont make any difference.
Also, Dr. Ingela said that 25% of his weight was food. I think 25% is too high of an estimate for any big cat but that certainly means he was gorged as per observation.
This is what happen when estimations are taken as facts (like I said to SpinoRex). Schaller estimated that tigers can eat up to 1/5 (20%) of its own body weight (Schaller, 1967), and latter estimated that lions can eat up to 1/4 (25%) of its own body weight (Schaller, 1972). Of course these are estimations but some people chose to use it just like that, with no other back up.
For example, the biggest food intake for tigers actually recorded is of 35 kg (McDougal, 1977) and for lions is of 33 kg+ (Schaller, 1972; the lion already had some stomach content before start eatingt the bait). If we use the maximum averaged figures acepted for male tigers and lions which are 201 kg and 195 kg respectively, we can say that represent 17.4% and 16.9% respectively. This means that the maximum amount recorded is about the 17% of the body mass of the specimens, that is the difference between real values and estimated values.
This means that IF Puyol was fully gorged, probably weighed as low as c.200 kg, as Pckts says.
Hi,
But i said clearly before that the estimates alone are useless. With that i mentioned the MDR which was just a measurement "start" for the scientists of what a lion SHOULD eat. At the end they averaged a bit above it with c.11 kg including NT males but as NT males are pretty inconsistent it should be noted sperately as (9.4 kg, 13.2 kg)
I saw the pictures of Puyol. There is no doubt he had stomach content but i doubt he was really gorged. Puyol was c.4 years old. From the pictures i estimate him in the neighborhood of 220 kg.
(02-16-2022, 01:32 AM)SpinoRex Wrote: But i said clearly before that the estimates alone are useless. With that i mentioned the MDR which was just a measurement "start" for the scientists of what a lion SHOULD eat. At the end they averaged a bit above it with c.11 kg including NT males but as NT males are pretty inconsistent it should be noted sperately as (9.4 kg, 13.2 kg)
I saw the pictures of Puyol. There is no doubt he had stomach content but i doubt he was really gorged. Puyol was c.4 years old. From the pictures i estimate him in the neighborhood of 220 kg.
But that is the point, estimations are just about what they should eat, but not what they actually eat. NT may eat more but less frequently while TM may eat less but more frequently, that is what I see in the study, but actually TM eat more overall. That is fact, specially for the easy life of a male lion.
Now, about Puyol I clearly said "IF". No one is saying that was actually gorged, althoug the same author suggest that it was. The belly is not so big so for a 4 years old male lion 200 kg is not out of question. 220 is a bit high for a lion of that age, but may happen. At the end, the scale used was imperfect, as they say, so the real weight could be very good about 215 - 220 kg empty, taking in count a good meal between 15 - 20 kg, which is normal for an adult male lion.
I decided to use the figure of 235 kg and add a note about the stomach content. You can see it in my table from many years ago. Puyol is not a new male for anyone here and this topic is an old discussion, that at the end is unimportant, as most of the male lions in modern records DO include stomach contents. So, there is no point in trying to adjust weights, that is only an excuse to try to diminish the weights of some tigers (specially those from Nepal), but we should use the weights are they are as we can't know the real amount of food, unless we can actually weigh it. Even then, as you can see, I do adjusted the weights from tigers and I used the weights for lions as they are reported (not adjusted). Incredible, the tigers still dominate the scale.
02-17-2022, 04:20 AM( This post was last modified: 02-17-2022, 04:24 AM by SpinoRex )
(02-16-2022, 03:18 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(02-16-2022, 01:32 AM)SpinoRex Wrote: But i said clearly before that the estimates alone are useless. With that i mentioned the MDR which was just a measurement "start" for the scientists of what a lion SHOULD eat. At the end they averaged a bit above it with c.11 kg including NT males but as NT males are pretty inconsistent it should be noted sperately as (9.4 kg, 13.2 kg)
I saw the pictures of Puyol. There is no doubt he had stomach content but i doubt he was really gorged. Puyol was c.4 years old. From the pictures i estimate him in the neighborhood of 220 kg.
But that is the point, estimations are just about what they should eat, but not what they actually eat. NT may eat more but less frequently while TM may eat less but more frequently, that is what I see in the study, but actually TM eat more overall. That is fact, specially for the easy life of a male lion.
Now, about Puyol I clearly said "IF". No one is saying that was actually gorged, althoug the same author suggest that it was. The belly is not so big so for a 4 years old male lion 200 kg is not out of question. 220 is a bit high for a lion of that age, but may happen. At the end, the scale used was imperfect, as they say, so the real weight could be very good about 215 - 220 kg empty, taking in count a good meal between 15 - 20 kg, which is normal for an adult male lion.
I decided to use the figure of 235 kg and add a note about the stomach content. You can see it in my table from many years ago. Puyol is not a new male for anyone here and this topic is an old discussion, that at the end is unimportant, as most of the male lions in modern records DO include stomach contents. So, there is no point in trying to adjust weights, that is only an excuse to try to diminish the weights of some tigers (specially those from Nepal), but we should use the weights are they are as we can't know the real amount of food, unless we can actually weigh it. Even then, as you can see, I do adjusted the weights from tigers and I used the weights for lions as they are reported (not adjusted). Incredible, the tigers still dominate the scale.
I overall dont know the circumstances of a NT male (as some can have alliances). But given the conditions and stress they are living they wont survive well. The sucessrate of a NT male isnt measured but from what i have researched it isnt actually significantly lower as we are talking about males in this case, which are of course more experienced, which means its higher than the overall. Which is the reason for the average food intake with large samples. We have the food intake of Pride males and it was just 9.4 kg, which may indicate as i said a safe live (not easy by far of course). Lions are generally lean and fit but have a high potential of course.
The alliances of some male lions will definetely surpass most pride males in just individual size. Like as i said Mabande and Ximpoko who were nomads with a terretory (at least at the time when they were weighed). These arent the only ones i have seen. Lions who are doing well completely alone can be found. Those nomadic males are massive, with just some out of many pride males reaching that level. The nomadic males i am talking about is for example kalamas, the Kenya lion and various nomadic male lions alone or together.
Overall there are tons of factors. But the fact remained that NT males ate on average more than a T male by a great margin, although being more under pressure and so on. Over 3 hyenas per kill is a very high number actually
But a male tiger is completely different. Not only in their lifestyle (Solitary) but also compared to a male(esp NT) in africa they are better conditioned . So a terretorial male tiger is definetely above a pride male in terms of food intake just looking at the significant difference. I made that conclusion just after seeing the data and the other discussions were just assumptions from the past.
Regarding the Nepal males only 2 adult males were collared by Sunquist thats safe to say. The rest are adult females.
I mean 9.4 kg on average for a pride male from kruger (may be lower in other areas) is more a diet for a fit lion. Thats not impressive at all.
Thats just my opinion but its definetely reasonable.
Modern Weights and Measurements of Wild Lions
