There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
The lessons of a growing lion:
What a skull of about 18* months old lion could tell about evolution
A) skull of a subadult male lion from Kenya - (Measurements; GL 275 , KBL 262.5, P4 35.3, m1 28.3)
B) an adult male from Botswana (Measurements; 395.6, KBL 340, P4 34.6 , m1 26 )
1 Growth and development:
As it can be seen it is obvious that the young lion (skull) would have a long away to grow until it reaches its adults size. Unlike the skull though the completely erupted permanent dentition of the young specimen is in its full adult size. This discrepancy between the growth rate of the dentition and the cranium gives an opportunity to illustrate the elusive but important process of the locally-specific growth (LSG) - a process of different speed, rate and or direction of growth of neighboring areas of the skull (and other bones).In this particular case in the maxilla and the mandible. Although LSG is likely a wide spread process, it is hard to be observed and illustrated, and as a consequence to define the areas which differ in growth. (To make the things even more difficult the differences in the growth rate could only be temporal )On the picture - The areas underlined with blue needs to retain their size (by holding the growth or modifying its direction) in order not to increase the volume of the alveoli and to loose the teeth. But the neighboring areas in red will grow freely until reaching the adult size (approximately as in the adult lion skull) . What are the mechanisms that determine those spatial differences of the growth on the local level, what those mechanism are depended on, and what controls them is unknown. But all of the skull /bone characteristics used in taxonomy and used for functional interpretations are product of the process of the growth - the general growth process but also the locally specific ones.
*the age is estimated based on teeth eruption see: Smuts, G.L., Anderson, J.L., Austin, J., 1978. Age determination of the African lion. J. Zool.185, 115–146.
2 Paleo -diet
The permanent teeth in cats are erupting in their full adult size, although the animal itself is still far from reaching the adult size. Since the teeth are completely developed they arrest their growth, which includes also the development (forming) of the dentin - i.e. the exchange of substances between the dentin and the environment (including that of isotopes) stops there. So any isotope analysis in cats based on dentin would provide data about the food habits of the animal at the time when it is about 30% - 40% smaller of the regular adult size.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Very usefull information. That means that unless that we know if the animal was fully adult or not, we can't use dentition as surrogate of size and weight, as the dentition is already fully grown even when the animal itself is istill not an adult. Sad news for some of us that use dentition to get body size of prehistoric animals.
06-18-2020, 06:29 PM( This post was last modified: 06-18-2020, 07:10 PM by peter )
PC
Thanks for the scans. Could you elaborate a bit on the source? Year of publication?
Unfortunately, the author didn't quite succeed in transforming feet and inches into cm. Same for pounds and kg. The pages you scanned suggest it could be best to use the inches and pounds.
Here's a few remarks on the info you posted.
a - Size of lions in Somaliland and Kenia
In the days of the British Raj, quite a few hunters made the trip from India to Africa to hunt lions. Northeast Africa was not that far from India.
Most of those who published about their experiences didn't say a lot about the size of lions shot in that part of Africa. Based on what I found, they seemed to have been a bit smaller than lions shot in other regions in Africa. The largest lion skull I saw, however, belonged to a male captured in that part of Africa. He was shipped to Europe and his skull ended up in the former Zoological Museum of Amsterdam.
At the level of averages, lions shot in what's now Kenia seem to be a bit larger than lions shot in what used to be 'Somaliland'. Individual variation in both regions, however, was quite outspoken. Exceptional individuals have been shot in Kenia in particular. I'm not only referring to the 600-pound lion discussed by 'WaveRiders'. There are more reliable records of very large lions shot in Kenia.
In this respect, Kitchener could be right: variation within populations seems to be more pronounced than variation between populations. Exceptional lions can be found just about everywhere.
b - Cape and Barbary lions
Some years ago, I measured all big cat skulls in the Wiesbaden Museum and the Staatliches Museum für Naturkunde in Stuttgart. I saw the alleged Cape lions myself. I also saw the skeleton of an alleged Cape lion in the former Zoological Museum of Amsterdam (ZMA). Sizewise, they don't seem to be very different from lions shot in other regions in Africa.
I only saw a few skulls of lions shot in the southern tip of South Africa a long time ago. Compared to skulls of lions shot in other regions in South Africa, they seemed shorter and a bit more robust.
All skulls of alleged Barbary lions I saw belonged to lions born and raised in captivity. They did seem different from other lion skulls. I will post everything I have in the lion extinction thread in some time.
''We had sighted a snoozing male lion on the previous day and he was encumbered by a snare, which had got entangled around his neck. Although it did not restrict his movement he seemed bothered. On the morning in question, we came across him resting on a main road. Daudi radioed to contact Matt of the AWDC and the SLCS team, who had already set out with a view finding the lion and removing the snare.''
*This image is copyright of its original author
''We then had a close spectator view of the team and their strategy for darting the lion and removing the snare. Firstly, Matt in his Land Rover, after much manoeuvring fired the dart into the lion’s shoulder. The lion then slowly walked away and then slumped in a shaded area. By this time there were a number of RPS guides and guests eagerly taking a keen view.''
*This image is copyright of its original author
''Matt calmly explained the procedures and where we could safely view the proceedings. His team regularly took temperature and applied water to cool the animal, whilst he applied an injection of antibiotics, removed the snare and cleaned the wounds''
*This image is copyright of its original author
''The guides assisted in the task of measuring the lion, and then with the weighing. The scales read 164 kg (which we believe indicates that he is not yet fully grown). I do not know who was more excited – the guides or the guests! ''
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
''Finally, before the reversal injection, Matt advised us that we should leave. He had been brilliant in involving us as spectators, whilst undertaking what must have been a stressful task.
We will be interested to learn of how the lion fares after his “health check”. ''
Dr. Siefert manages to dart a male lion UCP unofficially refers to as “the Big Guy.” Photo by Michael Schwartz.
*This image is copyright of its original author
''Successfully darting a 400-pound (181.4 kg) male lion is about as easy as sweeping leaves on a blustery day. Already we’ve been sitting for more than an hour in the scorching heat, waiting to see if Big Guy will leave the thicket, but he’s much too comfortable. To make matters worse, Bridget ( the lioness ) is sitting directly in Lu’s line of site.''
Big Guy resting comfortably after the UCP team fits him with a radio collar and performs a health examination. Photo by Amber Frank.
*This image is copyright of its original author
''I’m reminded of all this as James continually scans the brush for Bridget or any of the other lions around us during the collaring process. Fortunately, Bridget stays put as Lu finishes fastening the collar around Big Guy, while I keep him cool by emptying my water bottle onto his coat.''
*This image is copyright of its original author
The team moves Big Guy to a more secure spot. Photo by Amber Frank.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Inspecting Big Guy’s claws. Photo by Michael Schwartz.
*This image is copyright of its original author
''With the collar securely fastened, Lu and James start collecting blood, saliva, and ectoparasite (tick) samples, all while performing a routine clinical exam to evaluate his health status. Part of this involves checking the teeth, paws, and other areas where lions are prone to injury or infection.''
*This image is copyright of its original author
Dr. Ludwig Siefert examines Big Guy’s massive canines. Photo by Michael Schwartz.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
''The entire procedure takes about one hour. Then Lu reverses the anesthesia with an intravenous, intramuscular injection. Finally, we get to work moving the lion into a safe position in the shade before he wakes up.
Leaving a lion alone while it recovers from a sedative can be dangerous if an elephant or buffalo happens to pass by. And so we wait not far off for Big Guy to recover, our day’s hard work proving to be a great success.''
''As we watchBig Guy from a safe distance, I can’t help but dwell on the fact that Lu is one of the only wildlife veterinarians out here. One man, a small handful of assistants, 70 lions in a park that’s almost the size of Rhode Island, many impoverished communities, and plenty of other wildlife that needs looking after.''
Big Guy wakes up after getting his new radio collar. Photo by Michael Schwartz.
*This image is copyright of its original author
''It may be difficult for some to share in his optimism, but as I watch Big Guy wake up, his gaze fixed carefully on us in the heat of midday, I realize that, so long as there are people like Lu out here in the thick of it, there will always be reason to hope.''
*This image is copyright of its original author
Unlike Big Guy male and the other male lion I posted, this male lion wasn't weighed I guess. But he was measured.
length 123 and half.
*This image is copyright of its original author
54.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Paw measurements ( Hind legs )
Pads: 6 (length), 8 (width), toe 5.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
check 9:38m of the video for the measurement moment.
Thanks for sharing valuable pictures! I guess body size of Barbary lions and Cape lions are actually the same as African lions. It is just ignorant fanboys are making lies about maximum body size of Barbary lions and Cape lions. It is easy to see them in youtube. I think Cape lions were probably bigger than Barbary lions since many large mammals are also lived in their habitats. Every huge size records of Barbary lions were probably exaggerated or domestic animal killers.
I have a data about a 158 kg serengeti male Lion who had a chest Grith of 122cm. Pound for pound this is even more than the 172 kg Tuger with a chest girth of 130cm from Brander.
Source comes from craig Packer. Its reliable though....
09-08-2020, 07:27 AM( This post was last modified: 09-08-2020, 07:43 AM by Balam )
Here are the body measurements of lions from Etosha national park, gathered by the Africat Hobatere Lion Reasearch Project in 2016. Judging by the high values in areas such as height (especially for Gaob), I'm almost certain that measurements were taken over curves, and for the height, they probably measured it from the paw tip up to the shoulder, rather than from the radius bone:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
The full study has been attached to this post.
EDIT: Looking at earlier pages in this thread it appears as though these measurements had already been discussed, however, the original table had not been posted, so hopefully this can bring more clarity and details.
09-08-2020, 09:26 AM( This post was last modified: 09-08-2020, 10:42 AM by GuateGojira )
(08-05-2020, 10:05 PM)lionjaguar Wrote: Thanks for sharing valuable pictures! I guess body size of Barbary lions and Cape lions are actually the same as African lions. It is just ignorant fanboys are making lies about maximum body size of Barbary lions and Cape lions. It is easy to see them in youtube. I think Cape lions were probably bigger than Barbary lions since many large mammals are also lived in their habitats. Every huge size records of Barbary lions were probably exaggerated or domestic animal killers.
Check this topic for more infromation about the size of the Barbary and Cape lion. I provided all the information available and the conclutions is that the Barbary lions were not larger than the East African lions.
(09-08-2020, 07:27 AM)Balam Wrote: Here are the body measurements of lions from Etosha national park, gathered by the Africat Hobatere Lion Reasearch Project in 2016. Judging by the high values in areas such as height (especially for Gaob), I'm almost certain that measurements were taken over curves, and for the height, they probably measured it from the paw tip up to the shoulder, rather than from the radius bone:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
The full study has been attached to this post.
EDIT: Looking at earlier pages in this thread it appears as though these measurements had already been discussed, however, the original table had not been posted, so hopefully this can bring more clarity and details.
Thank you for the information, I already elaborate an investigation about those measurements and the conclution is that while the weights are accurate (and include stomach content), the measurements are a real mess.
09-08-2020, 04:13 PM( This post was last modified: 09-08-2020, 04:14 PM by Pckts )
(08-21-2020, 08:26 PM)Yusuf Wrote: Hello guys. I'm new in this forum.
I have a data about a 158 kg serengeti male Lion who had a chest Grith of 122cm. Pound for pound this is even more than the 172 kg Tuger with a chest girth of 130cm from Brander.
Source comes from craig Packer. Its reliable though....
The weight is an estimate based off of Chest girth and im not sure how you came to a conclusion that it somehow has a larger girth "lb for lb" when they are 14kg apart in weight and 8cm apart in chest girth.
You'd have to first correlate chest girth to weight then figure out how much additional chest girth needs to be added to increase the weight and by what %.
Lastly is that you'd need to find a large enough sample size to compare.
Modern Weights and Measurements of Wild Lions
