Login

Pckts · 04-01-2020, 09:35 PM

(04-01-2020, 08:04 PM)Pantherinae Wrote:
(04-01-2020, 07:02 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-01-2020, 06:31 PM)Hello Wrote: Here is an another big and bulky Okavango lion.I put him in 500 lb+ league

He's full bellied, not necessarily massive.

@Pantherinae
Unfortunately with those same 3 images, they have the benefit of a flattering perspective.
Im sure you can find the same cat's with less impressive angles
As of now I have 2 reliable sources saying they are smaller than Lions elsewhere.
Do I think that is a representation of all Delta Lions, probably not but it's definitely interesting to note.
Here is a big male lion from the Delta, impressive lion.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Response I got from Looking for lions.
Yes, he was quite a big lion! We measure along the body curves, so for body length from the top of the nose pad and over the head, along the spine to the start of the tail. He measured 197.5 cm, with a tail length of 92cm (from the start of the tail to the tip of the last caudal vertebra). Chest girth was 130.5 cm and shoulder height (from the spine to the start of the paw pad) 131.5cm. Unfortunately, I didn't have a scale but the vet estimated him to be around 240kg.

Robynne

Yes I agree the angle is flattering, but still that is a big lion. people say Renoka (this lions name) is very big and dwarfs the females in his pride.

This quote was directly from Looking for Lions

"Some of the largest lions I've seen, and also talking to people around Botswana - the lions in the Kalahari are some of the biggest. I can't speak personally of East Africa because i havent been there. One of the males I collared south in the Delta was quite large, but the females higher up in the Delta, in the really swampy areas, are defintely of smaller stature, but they have impressive muscular builds which we assume is from wading in the water and the sand. I have heard other guides/travellers comment on this as well."

Pantherinae · 04-01-2020, 10:16 PM

(04-01-2020, 09:35 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-01-2020, 08:04 PM)Pantherinae Wrote:
(04-01-2020, 07:02 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-01-2020, 06:31 PM)Hello Wrote: Here is an another big and bulky Okavango lion.I put him in 500 lb+ league

He's full bellied, not necessarily massive.

@Pantherinae
Unfortunately with those same 3 images, they have the benefit of a flattering perspective.
Im sure you can find the same cat's with less impressive angles
As of now I have 2 reliable sources saying they are smaller than Lions elsewhere.
Do I think that is a representation of all Delta Lions, probably not but it's definitely interesting to note.
Here is a big male lion from the Delta, impressive lion.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Response I got from Looking for lions.
Yes, he was quite a big lion! We measure along the body curves, so for body length from the top of the nose pad and over the head, along the spine to the start of the tail. He measured 197.5 cm, with a tail length of 92cm (from the start of the tail to the tip of the last caudal vertebra). Chest girth was 130.5 cm and shoulder height (from the spine to the start of the paw pad) 131.5cm. Unfortunately, I didn't have a scale but the vet estimated him to be around 240kg.

Robynne

Yes I agree the angle is flattering, but still that is a big lion. people say Renoka (this lions name) is very big and dwarfs the females in his pride.

This quote was directly from Looking for Lions

"Some of the largest lions I've seen, and also talking to people around Botswana - the lions in the Kalahari are some of the biggest. I can't speak personally of East Africa because i havent been there. One of the males I collared south in the Delta was quite large, but the females higher up in the Delta, in the really swampy areas, are defintely of smaller stature, but they have impressive muscular builds which we assume is from wading in the water and the sand. I have heard other guides/travellers comment on this as well."

Yes, but still that lion was big so lions can be big there. Maybe in the swampiest areas lions are not as large, but in other parts they grow larger.
Joubert said the Tsaro male lions where the biggest he had ever seen and that females where as large as inland males. Although I don’t agree with the last part of his statement, this is a different opinion of a filmaker with much experience.

So I think lions grow large here. Lions in some parts might be small, while in other lions are big. Most likely it’s down to availability of prey. Letchwe is hard to hunt in floods. So if Buffalo is scarce it’s probably a very hard life for lions in the swamp. Whereas Buffalos are abundant in say Duba plains and in parts of Moremi so they grow larger.
We have different opinions from several people with much experience and that I see as reliable. And we have recorded small and big lions there. So I think we both are right. Lions can be both big and small in the delta.

GuateGojira · 04-02-2020, 02:13 AM

(04-01-2020, 10:16 PM)Pantherinae Wrote: Joubert said the Tsaro male lions where the biggest he had ever seen and that females where as large as inland males. Although I don’t agree with the last part of his statement, this is a different opinion of a filmaker with much experience.

As far I remember, in the documentary and in the news article he never said anything about the male lions, he only said that the females were as large a "inland males". However it depends of what "inland males" he was refering too. Did he saw other male lions of South Africa or Kenya/Tanzania? Is his average "inland male" of the same size as the figures reported by Dr Craig Packer (about 160 - 170 kg)?

Pantherinae · 04-02-2020, 07:23 AM

(04-02-2020, 02:13 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(04-01-2020, 10:16 PM)Pantherinae Wrote: Joubert said the Tsaro male lions where the biggest he had ever seen and that females where as large as inland males. Although I don’t agree with the last part of his statement, this is a different opinion of a filmaker with much experience.

As far I remember, in the documentary and in the news article he never said anything about the male lions, he only said that the females were as large a "inland males". However it depends of what "inland males" he was refering too. Did he saw other male lions of South Africa or Kenya/Tanzania? Is his average "inland male" of the same size as the figures reported by Dr Craig Packer (about 160 - 170 kg)?

I don’t know about which lions he has seen in the past, but I know he was filming in Savuti.
Which also has impressive looking males.

Here is what he said about male lions from the Okavango Delta:
Male lions in the Okavango Delta, a lush wetland where the Okavango River collides with the Kalahari Desert, are the largest lions on Earth, said filmmaker Dereck Joubert. Dereck and his wife, Beverly, both National Geographic explorers-in-residence, made a film about how these male lions survive,

https://www.google.no/amp/s/www.livescience.com/amp/41584-photos-the-biggest-lions-on-earth.html

GuateGojira · 04-04-2020, 10:27 AM

(04-02-2020, 07:23 AM)Pantherinae Wrote: I don’t know about which lions he has seen in the past, but I know he was filming in Savuti.
Which also has impressive looking males.

Here is what he said about male lions from the Okavango Delta:
Male lions in the Okavango Delta, a lush wetland where the Okavango River collides with the Kalahari Desert, are the largest lions on Earth, said filmmaker Dereck Joubert. Dereck and his wife, Beverly, both National Geographic explorers-in-residence, made a film about how these male lions survive,

https://www.google.no/amp/s/www.livescience.com/amp/41584-photos-the-biggest-lions-on-earth.html

Interesting article, so they do mentioned "males". Now, my question is what is the experience of the Jouberts in "size" especifically. I know that they are experts in lion behaviour and ecology and I REALLY respect that. But how many lions had they captured, or what is the point of appreciation to say that those lions were the largest?

I mean, this is the same case as the lions of the Crater and the tigers of Kaziranga and Orang, there are several people in litterature and the web that say that those lions/tigers are the largest, but there are no measurements to prove it. At least we have a couple of measurements from Assam tigers (and they are not exceptionally large in comparison with other Bengal/Nepal populations) and we have chest girth measurements from the Ngorongoro crater (and, again, they are not exceptional compared with populations of lions in Southern Africa region).

So, I don't want to sound "exceptical" but unless they can provide evidence that those lions are really "large", they statement will be just they personal appreciation.

For the moment, my vote for the largest lions are those from South Africa.

Hello · 04-04-2020, 11:56 AM

(04-04-2020, 10:27 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(04-02-2020, 07:23 AM)Pantherinae Wrote: I don’t know about which lions he has seen in the past, but I know he was filming in Savuti.
Which also has impressive looking males.

Here is what he said about male lions from the Okavango Delta:
Male lions in the Okavango Delta, a lush wetland where the Okavango River collides with the Kalahari Desert, are the largest lions on Earth, said filmmaker Dereck Joubert. Dereck and his wife, Beverly, both National Geographic explorers-in-residence, made a film about how these male lions survive,

https://www.google.no/amp/s/www.livescience.com/amp/41584-photos-the-biggest-lions-on-earth.html

Interesting article, so they do mentioned "males". Now, my question is what is the experience of the Jouberts in "size" especifically. I know that they are experts in lion behaviour and ecology and I REALLY respect that. But how many lions had they captured, or what is the point of appreciation to say that those lions were the largest?

I mean, this is the same case as the lions of the Crater and the tigers of Kaziranga and Orang, there are several people in litterature and the web that say that those lions/tigers are the largest, but there are no measurements to prove it. At least we have a couple of measurements from Assam tigers (and they are not exceptionally large in comparison with other Bengal/Nepal populations) and we have chest girth measurements from the Ngorongoro crater (and, again, they are not exceptional compared with populations of lions in Southern Africa region).

So, I don't want to sound "exceptical" but unless they can provide evidence that those lions are really "large", they statement will be just they personal appreciation.

For the moment, my vote for the largest lions are those from South Africa.

I also vote for Kruger lions when it comes to size with highest averages of 195-200 kg,Skull length and are the tallest cats on average.
Some average Krugers

Pantherinae · 04-04-2020, 07:26 PM

(04-04-2020, 10:27 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(04-02-2020, 07:23 AM)Pantherinae Wrote: I don’t know about which lions he has seen in the past, but I know he was filming in Savuti.
Which also has impressive looking males.

Here is what he said about male lions from the Okavango Delta:
Male lions in the Okavango Delta, a lush wetland where the Okavango River collides with the Kalahari Desert, are the largest lions on Earth, said filmmaker Dereck Joubert. Dereck and his wife, Beverly, both National Geographic explorers-in-residence, made a film about how these male lions survive,

https://www.google.no/amp/s/www.livescience.com/amp/41584-photos-the-biggest-lions-on-earth.html

Interesting article, so they do mentioned "males". Now, my question is what is the experience of the Jouberts in "size" especifically. I know that they are experts in lion behaviour and ecology and I REALLY respect that. But how many lions had they captured, or what is the point of appreciation to say that those lions were the largest?

I mean, this is the same case as the lions of the Crater and the tigers of Kaziranga and Orang, there are several people in litterature and the web that say that those lions/tigers are the largest, but there are no measurements to prove it. At least we have a couple of measurements from Assam tigers (and they are not exceptionally large in comparison with other Bengal/Nepal populations) and we have chest girth measurements from the Ngorongoro crater (and, again, they are not exceptional compared with populations of lions in Southern Africa region).

So, I don't want to sound "exceptical" but unless they can provide evidence that those lions are really "large", they statement will be just they personal appreciation.

For the moment, my vote for the largest lions are those from South Africa.

All I said was that they where large and capable of reaching those big sizes as other lions do. I think Joubert from over the years can tell if a lion is big or small. However I agree that we need more evidence to back it up about them being the biggest.

Biggest lions are from Kgalagadi and probably also in Chobe and Etosha, which has migrating lions from the Kalahari.
Private parks in South Africa has gotten lions from Etosha and Kgalagadi in them as well. Madikwe has a reputation for having very big lions.
"The lion in Madikwe were originally introduced into the park from Etosha National Park (in Namibia). However, recently two new males were introduced from the Kgalahadi Transfrontier National Park in order to introduce new genes into the pool."
https://www.madikwegamereserve.co.za/big-5/
Who knows, but I just don’t see Kruger lions being that big.

Pckts · 04-04-2020, 08:42 PM

(04-04-2020, 07:26 PM)Pantherinae Wrote:
(04-04-2020, 10:27 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(04-02-2020, 07:23 AM)Pantherinae Wrote: I don’t know about which lions he has seen in the past, but I know he was filming in Savuti.
Which also has impressive looking males.

Here is what he said about male lions from the Okavango Delta:
Male lions in the Okavango Delta, a lush wetland where the Okavango River collides with the Kalahari Desert, are the largest lions on Earth, said filmmaker Dereck Joubert. Dereck and his wife, Beverly, both National Geographic explorers-in-residence, made a film about how these male lions survive,

https://www.google.no/amp/s/www.livescience.com/amp/41584-photos-the-biggest-lions-on-earth.html

Interesting article, so they do mentioned "males". Now, my question is what is the experience of the Jouberts in "size" especifically. I know that they are experts in lion behaviour and ecology and I REALLY respect that. But how many lions had they captured, or what is the point of appreciation to say that those lions were the largest?

I mean, this is the same case as the lions of the Crater and the tigers of Kaziranga and Orang, there are several people in litterature and the web that say that those lions/tigers are the largest, but there are no measurements to prove it. At least we have a couple of measurements from Assam tigers (and they are not exceptionally large in comparison with other Bengal/Nepal populations) and we have chest girth measurements from the Ngorongoro crater (and, again, they are not exceptional compared with populations of lions in Southern Africa region).

So, I don't want to sound "exceptical" but unless they can provide evidence that those lions are really "large", they statement will be just they personal appreciation.

For the moment, my vote for the largest lions are those from South Africa.

All I said was that they where large and capable of reaching those big sizes as other lions do. I think Joubert from over the years can tell if a lion is big or small. However I agree that we need more evidence to back it up about them being the biggest.

Biggest lions are from Kgalagadi and probably also in Chobe and Etosha, which has migrating lions from the Kalahari.
Private parks in South Africa has gotten lions from Etosha and Kgalagadi in them as well. Madikwe has a reputation for having very big lions.
"The lion in Madikwe were originally introduced into the park from Etosha National Park (in Namibia). However, recently two new males were introduced from the Kgalahadi Transfrontier National Park in order to introduce new genes into the pool."
https://www.madikwegamereserve.co.za/big-5/
Who knows, but I just don’t see Kruger lions being that big.

I agree on Kruger Lions or S. African Lions in general.
None impress the way the big hippo/buffalo killers of East Africa do imo.
But S. Africans do seem taller in frame.

Pantherinae · 04-04-2020, 09:44 PM

(04-04-2020, 08:42 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-04-2020, 07:26 PM)Pantherinae Wrote:
(04-04-2020, 10:27 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(04-02-2020, 07:23 AM)Pantherinae Wrote: I don’t know about which lions he has seen in the past, but I know he was filming in Savuti.
Which also has impressive looking males.

Here is what he said about male lions from the Okavango Delta:
Male lions in the Okavango Delta, a lush wetland where the Okavango River collides with the Kalahari Desert, are the largest lions on Earth, said filmmaker Dereck Joubert. Dereck and his wife, Beverly, both National Geographic explorers-in-residence, made a film about how these male lions survive,

https://www.google.no/amp/s/www.livescience.com/amp/41584-photos-the-biggest-lions-on-earth.html

Interesting article, so they do mentioned "males". Now, my question is what is the experience of the Jouberts in "size" especifically. I know that they are experts in lion behaviour and ecology and I REALLY respect that. But how many lions had they captured, or what is the point of appreciation to say that those lions were the largest?

I mean, this is the same case as the lions of the Crater and the tigers of Kaziranga and Orang, there are several people in litterature and the web that say that those lions/tigers are the largest, but there are no measurements to prove it. At least we have a couple of measurements from Assam tigers (and they are not exceptionally large in comparison with other Bengal/Nepal populations) and we have chest girth measurements from the Ngorongoro crater (and, again, they are not exceptional compared with populations of lions in Southern Africa region).

So, I don't want to sound "exceptical" but unless they can provide evidence that those lions are really "large", they statement will be just they personal appreciation.

For the moment, my vote for the largest lions are those from South Africa.

All I said was that they where large and capable of reaching those big sizes as other lions do. I think Joubert from over the years can tell if a lion is big or small. However I agree that we need more evidence to back it up about them being the biggest.

Biggest lions are from Kgalagadi and probably also in Chobe and Etosha, which has migrating lions from the Kalahari.
Private parks in South Africa has gotten lions from Etosha and Kgalagadi in them as well. Madikwe has a reputation for having very big lions.
"The lion in Madikwe were originally introduced into the park from Etosha National Park (in Namibia). However, recently two new males were introduced from the Kgalahadi Transfrontier National Park in order to introduce new genes into the pool."
https://www.madikwegamereserve.co.za/big-5/
Who knows, but I just don’t see Kruger lions being that big.
I agree on Kruger Lions or S. African Lions in general.
None impress the way the big hippo/buffalo killers of East Africa do imo.
But S. Africans do seem taller in frame.

I agree Kruger lions have an impressive frame, but on bulk and muscle the seem inferior to Chobe and Kgalagadi males which I can’t see being smaller in frame.
Yes Notch boys where larger in every way except maybe height than the largest Kruger lion I have seen at least.
The more normal Mara males I saw however was not that impressive, and I might say a more average looking Kruger Lion was tad bigger, this is ofc just my opinion, but I really wanna see lions from Kgalagadi and Chobe, I think they are bigger.
Also with hyenas, zebra and wildebeest in perticular they where all much smaller in East Africa than South Africa.

GuateGojira · 04-07-2020, 07:06 AM

(04-04-2020, 07:26 PM)Pantherinae Wrote: Biggest lions are from Kgalagadi and probably also in Chobe and Etosha, which has migrating lions from the Kalahari.

Do you have evidence of this, or is just your personal opinion?

Pantherinae · 04-07-2020, 10:46 AM

(04-07-2020, 07:06 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(04-04-2020, 07:26 PM)Pantherinae Wrote: Biggest lions are from Kgalagadi and probably also in Chobe and Etosha, which has migrating lions from the Kalahari.

Do you have evidence of this, or is just your personal opinion?

Personal opinion, but based on people that have had conutless trips/works in both Kgalagadi and Kruger. Chobe lions often are lions who has entered from Kalahari so I would assume they are about the same size. Also some individuals from East are huge.

In South Africa Timbawati and Madikwe is said to have very big lions. Madikwe as mentioned has gotten lions from Etosha and Kgalagadi.
Problem with Kruger lions are that they are so lean that with 90% of the males you can see their spine.

GuateGojira · 04-07-2020, 10:53 AM

(04-07-2020, 10:46 AM)Pantherinae Wrote: Personal opinion, but based on people that have had conutless trips/works in both Kgalagadi and Kruger. Chobe lions often are lions who has entered from Kalahari so I would assume they are about the same size. Also some individuals from East are huge.

In South Africa Timbawati and Madikwe is said to have very big lions. Madikwe as mentioned has gotten lions from Etosha and Kgalagadi.
Problem with Kruger lions are that they are so lean that with 90% of the males you can see their spine.

It would be interesting to see figures from Kgalagadi and Chobe. We have info from Etosha, and although they seems to be heavier, they figures include stomach content, while those used for South Africa did not in the mayority of the specimens.

We most be carefull with personal estimations based in sightings and pictures, as you know, sometimes the emotion and the personal feelings may affect the perception. Check the case of the Indian lions, for example.

However, again, it will be interesting to have more date of these lion populations at the south of Africa, definitelly they are the largest of the lion populations in modern days and a male of 190 kg is normal for these latitudes.

Pantherinae · 04-07-2020, 12:30 PM

(04-07-2020, 10:53 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(04-07-2020, 10:46 AM)Pantherinae Wrote: Personal opinion, but based on people that have had conutless trips/works in both Kgalagadi and Kruger. Chobe lions often are lions who has entered from Kalahari so I would assume they are about the same size. Also some individuals from East are huge.

In South Africa Timbawati and Madikwe is said to have very big lions. Madikwe as mentioned has gotten lions from Etosha and Kgalagadi.
Problem with Kruger lions are that they are so lean that with 90% of the males you can see their spine.

It would be interesting to see figures from Kgalagadi and Chobe. We have info from Etosha, and although they seems to be heavier, they figures include stomach content, while those used for South Africa did not in the mayority of the specimens.

We most be carefull with personal estimations based in sightings and pictures, as you know, sometimes the emotion and the personal feelings may affect the perception. Check the case of the Indian lions, for example.

However, again, it will be interesting to have more date of these lion populations at the south of Africa, definitelly they are the largest of the lion populations in modern days and a male of 190 kg is normal for these latitudes.

I agree that we must be careful to say which is bigger, but it’s just as I said my opinion with the Chobe and Kgalagadi lions.
Would like as you say to see actual weights from those places. Until then I agree that on average Kruger lions are the biggest. And East Africa has the heaviest, as I personally accept the 272 kg lion from Kenya.

Pckts · 04-07-2020, 11:21 PM

Velizar Simeonovski

The lessons of a growing lion:
What a skull of about 18* months old lion could tell about evolution
A) skull of a subadult male lion from Kenya - (Measurements; GL 275 , KBL 262.5, P4 35.3, m1 28.3)
B) an adult male from Botswana (Measurements; 395.6, KBL 340, P4 34.6 , m1 26 )
1 Growth and development:
As it can be seen it is obvious that the young lion (skull) would have a long away to grow until it reaches its adults size. Unlike the skull though the completely erupted permanent dentition of the young specimen is in its full adult size. This discrepancy between the growth rate of the dentition and the cranium gives an opportunity to illustrate the elusive but important process of the locally-specific growth (LSG) - a process of different speed, rate and or direction of growth of neighboring areas of the skull (and other bones).In this particular case in the maxilla and the mandible. Although LSG is likely a wide spread process, it is hard to be observed and illustrated, and as a consequence to define the areas which differ in growth. (To make the things even more difficult the differences in the growth rate could only be temporal )On the picture - The areas underlined with blue needs to retain their size (by holding the growth or modifying its direction) in order not to increase the volume of the alveoli and to loose the teeth. But the neighboring areas in red will grow freely until reaching the adult size (approximately as in the adult lion skull) . What are the mechanisms that determine those spatial differences of the growth on the local level, what those mechanism are depended on, and what controls them is unknown. But all of the skull /bone characteristics used in taxonomy and used for functional interpretations are product of the process of the growth - the general growth process but also the locally specific ones.
*the age is estimated based on teeth eruption see: Smuts, G.L., Anderson, J.L., Austin, J., 1978. Age determination of the African lion. J. Zool.185, 115–146.
2 Paleo -diet
The permanent teeth in cats are erupting in their full adult size, although the animal itself is still far from reaching the adult size. Since the teeth are completely developed they arrest their growth, which includes also the development (forming) of the dentin - i.e. the exchange of substances between the dentin and the environment (including that of isotopes) stops there. So any isotope analysis in cats based on dentin would provide data about the food habits of the animal at the time when it is about 30% - 40% smaller of the regular adult size.