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Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars

Balam Offline
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( This post was last modified: 09-06-2020, 06:10 AM by Balam )

@peter @Dark Jaguar @epaiva @Pckts,  I also have some really interesting news, I was in contact with Rachael Hoogesteijn in regards to questions about his capture of Lopez and the ecology of Llanos jaguars and I'm going to share what he told me here:


*This image is copyright of its original author

In regards to the weight of Lopez


*This image is copyright of its original author

"The scale with which we weight that jaguar captured in 2008 reached 300 lbs = 136 kg, but the jaguar surpassed the scale (reached the limit), with a lot of ease, so the researcher Sandra Cavalcanti, with a lot of expertise in captures and weights of jaguars, estimated him to be 148 kg, there is no way to know if he had stomach content"


*This image is copyright of its original author

"In the Rosero, Apure state in the Venezuelan Llanos the brothers Velunti hunted a jaguar, the heaviest of more than a 100 they hunted and weighed 149 kg and there is a picture of the jaguar on the scale, showing his weight. 180 kg to me is a lie, I don't believe any jaguar in the Llanos weights more than 140 kg, and in the Pantanal 150 kg" then he recommended to read his book for more details.


*This image is copyright of its original author

"Yes jaguars hunt wild horses when they get the chance, and there are recent cases of a jaguar that killed a very valuable tamed horse, favourite of one of the sons of the owner of La Aurora. Jaguars are big opportunists and if they have the chance of predating a horse, especially the old ones that don't run as fast, they will do it"
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United States Pckts Online
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(09-06-2020, 05:42 AM)Balam Wrote: Ruxu's weight according to the Jaguar ID project:


*This image is copyright of its original author

@Dark Jaguar this is why I wanted you to double check with Tortoledo.
Fernando confirmed to me that Adriano was 130kg.
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Dark Jaguar Offline
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( This post was last modified: 09-06-2020, 08:40 AM by Dark Jaguar )

(09-06-2020, 05:42 AM)Balam Wrote: Ruxu's weight according to the Jaguar ID project:


*This image is copyright of its original author

@Dark Jaguar this is why I wanted you to double check with Tortoledo.


@Balam

That Jaguar ID Project size is way too big for him, that 156 kg is very strange, I am gonna need them to give more details on this capture and weight and also Panthera are the ones who really captures the jaguars. Maybe some other vets captured him before but I don't think thats the case.

Tortato mentioned to me answering my question the 3 largest jaguars ever captured by Panthera.org so far were Lopez 148 kg, M02 130 kg and Adriano 130 kg and only one male weighed bellow 100 kg.

And also in case he tells me the size of Gage male he could be in the 120's kg range or maybe he could be a third jaguar weighing 130 kg. Hopefully I'll find out soon Gage's size.


Also I've been seen a few comparisons of Adriano and Sossego male who also weighed 130 kg and I see they're both around the same frame overall.


About the wild horse predation, I always had the thought that jaguars could get the job done on wild horses. nothing surprising just the final confirmation.
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Venezuela epaiva Offline
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Huge Jaguar hunted in 1959 in El Rosero, Estado Apure. It weighted 148 kg.
Taken from the Book El Jaguar Tigre Americano (Rafael Hoogesteijn)

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
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Balam Offline
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@Dark Jaguar I guess if he really said it was 130 kg that might just be the answer, but I do wonder where the 156 kg value came from.

Something I've noticed about the jaguar from el Rosero is that when you pay attention to itsid section you can see he is empty bellied (there is no bulge noticeable), and when looking at the picture of Lopez, there doesn't appear to be much of a stomach content either as the mid section lays flat on the ground. Now that Rafael confirmed that there is no way to determine how much stomach content he had, and the Jaguar ID said he was empty, we can assure that the rumor that he was gorged that I saw one person try to push in the past is not true.
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Dark Jaguar Offline
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( This post was last modified: 09-06-2020, 03:36 PM by Dark Jaguar )

@Balam

Lopez definitely looked empty on his capture.

And Regardless of stomach content or not I believe in Sandra Cavalcanti's claim, she's no joke on jaguar's sizes.

As Rafael Hosterejan said, Lopez weight very easily surpassed the scale's limit of 136 kg on the weighing machine which makes Lopez size of near 150 kg of Cavalcanti much more accurate.
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United States Pckts Online
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(09-06-2020, 08:18 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote:
(09-06-2020, 05:42 AM)Balam Wrote: Ruxu's weight according to the Jaguar ID project:


*This image is copyright of its original author

@Dark Jaguar this is why I wanted you to double check with Tortoledo.


@Balam

That Jaguar ID Project size is way too big for him, that 156 kg is very strange, I am gonna need them to give more details on this capture and weight and also Panthera are the ones who really captures the jaguars. Maybe some other vets captured him before but I don't think thats the case.

Tortato mentioned to me answering my question the 3 largest jaguars ever captured by Panthera.org so far were Lopez 148 kg, M02 130 kg and Adriano 130 kg and only one male weighed bellow 100 kg.

And also in case he tells me the size of Gage male he could be in the 120's kg range or maybe he could be a third jaguar weighing 130 kg. Hopefully I'll find out soon Gage's size.


Also I've been seen a few comparisons of Adriano and Sossego male who also weighed 130 kg and I see they're both around the same frame overall.


About the wild horse predation, I always had the thought that jaguars could get the job done on wild horses. nothing surprising just the final confirmation.

Just one more thing in regards to Adriano's frame. According to Paulo, Adriano isn't anything special in terms of his body dimensions, he's just an extremely bulky Jaguar.
It'd be great to get his dimensions if possible.
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Balam Offline
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@Pckts agree, he does look very bulky, but I've noticed that Edno and Hero, for example, show a very large frame in comparison.
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Balam Offline
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( This post was last modified: 12-19-2020, 09:47 AM by Balam )

I was doing some research on tiger killing of gaur, I decided it made sense to make one last post concerning stomach content following my email exchange with Hoogesteijn. This will hopefully help us get a better idea of what to look for when deciding if an animal is gorged or not when captured and pictures of said captures are available.

Here is a picture of a tigress that had killed a gaur and consumed a lot of meat to the point of limit. From the side angle one can see that the midsection of cats expands not only vertically but also horizontally, like a balloon, when actually gorged:


*This image is copyright of its original author

Jaguars are said to be able to consume up to 25 kg of meat in one single seating, which would create a similar look in their mid-section as 20-25 kg represent 1/6th of the mass of an extremely large male and one a fifth of an average male of 115 kg.

When we look at the pictures of the captures from Lopez, one can see that his stomach does not protrude forward as he lays on the ground, it is flat. It does lay downwards, but this is to be expected of jaguars who have wide vertical sections with short limbs:


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Compare his mid-section to that of an actually gorged felid as the tigress above, and it's pretty clear he was empty, just like the Jaguar ID stated.

Asesino, the large male jaguar hunted by Siemel quoted as having weighed 158 kg, on the other hand, does show some stomach content as its stomach is expanded on the side:


*This image is copyright of its original author

Looking at the jaguar's proportions, I estimate 10 - 20 kg of stomach content inside of him, as he was far from gorged, but not empty either. My guess is that Asesino probably weighed in between 140-148 kg empty, which is around the maximum size that Hoogesteijn stated for Pantanal males, and is around the same size range as Lopez, and estimated large jaguars like Edno or Joker who may wader in the range as well.

Here is a picture of the head of Asesino, clearly he was a huge individual, a prime example of the size potential of Pantanal jaguars:


*This image is copyright of its original author

While I agree that we should always strive to know as many details as possible of the state of an animal when it was weighed, we shouldn't be quick to dismiss very high values as "gorged individuals", not very low values (as is the case with Jairzao) as individuals in a dire state. It's best to have an open mind and look at it from an objective perspective. Just like humans, there are several factors that contribute to how much an animal grows and we should keep them in mind when analyzing them.
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Dark Jaguar Offline
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I am gonna make a few adjustments to the pantanal males table.

I got confirmation by Tortato, Juru was not captured yet.

3 jaguars shall be removed.

2 jaguars name shall be corrected.

A few jaguars shall be moved to the south area.

@Balam Juru shall be removed from the table, M&M and the unknown 134 kg male sourced by Moreira too, as I already suspected they are all Matheus Manco, thats what M&M or MM stands for and he was captured 3 times and also check the patterns on their rossetes, they're all the same animal.

Matheus Manco 1st capture - February 2018.


Onças do Rio Negro official post on Matheus Manco first capture Capture.

'' Last night 13/2 (February 13th) we captured another jaguar. This time it was a male of 134 kg and with approximately 4 years old, who was baptized Matheus. This animal was already being monitored by the project's trap cameras. Everything indicates that this animal took over the aerial life of the nostalgic Sossego male! He is now equipped with a Lotek/Iridium collar with automatic release system. For 12 months we will receive its location every hour. This information will be very important to know a little more about the ecology of the jaguar in the region.''

We especially thank our friend Flavia who bought the collar and also Leanes and Hemerson who even with the reduced team gave super account of the work!!!''


134 kg Matheus Manco


*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author


Instagram.




same capture shared on facebook

https://pt-br.facebook.com/oncasdorioneg...7767635320


Matheus Manco a few days after his first capture - February 2018.








Matheus Manco 2nd capture - July 2018.

First of all yes he was recaptured after 5 months.

Here they finally shows what ''M&M'' stands for.

Onças do Rio Negro.

''Capture of the male "M&M" (Matheus Manco) - to change necklace and exams. Weight 121 kg ''



Thats why there's a M&M male in the table which is him.


Same capture shared on facebook
https://www.facebook.com/oncasdorionegro...2731431155



*This image is copyright of its original author


Matheus Manco second capture posted by Gediendson



Matheus Manco seen in October 2018








Matheus Manco 3rd capture - February 2019.

Onças do Rio Negro

Capture Preparations.

''We are in capture week at Rio Negro, Pantanal - MS. The idea of the capture is to put on the necklace in a "new" jaguar or change, replace the necklace of some already monitored.

This is the case of the MM male, which has already been captured twice (the last one in July 2018). The necklace, besides the camera-traps, gives us an idea about the size of the territory and with it we can monitor the habits of the animals.

In addition, it has a remote signal of death of the animal which allows us to know quickly if something has occurred.
After 12 months the necklace automatically falls off the animal's neck without the need for recapture.

We use the "loop on paw" method of capture, the same adopted by Onçafari.''


This 3rd capture Matheus Manco looks thin and his weight wasn't mentioned here.

onças do rio negro

''Excellent team is like that... Mission given, mission accomplished!!!

Congratulations to our team for the success in the recapture of the MM jaguar. Now we can monitor the animal for another year!!!''



Same capture shared on facebook https://www.facebook.com/oncasdorionegro...4675252291


Matheus Manco third capture posted by Maitê



Lets keep in the table his first capture of 134 kg and something that is also to be icluded in the table is Matheus Manco's age, he was about 4 years old when first captured back in February 2018.






Also those pantanal jaguars sourced by Furtado are the ones Leandro and IOP captured in the 2000's in Pantanal. Mariana Furtado works with IOP, those jaguars were captured in Refúgio Ecológico Caiman and Fazenda Barranco Alto - South Pantanal and as we already know, it was between October 2003 and November 2008.

PAGE 73 ( in portuguese )

https://www.teses.usp.br/teses/disponive...URTADO.pdf


So add those ''Furtado sourced jaguars'' to the South Pantanal area.




And lastly I'd like you to take advantage while making these adjustments and could you correct the names of 2 jaguars in the table, the one of 115 kg named Scare, change its name into his official name in portuguese which is ''Susto''. and lastly the young male of 100 kg name, Its ''Santi''.






After all these adjustments get done, let me know cause I am gonna further post in tables 15 wild Pantanal jaguars from the 3 Pantanal areas (North/Central/South) and 9 of them will join the table in 2 different further posts. It also includes a few captive ones.

But only after these adjustments and corrections are all done for you not to get too overloaded with much to do at once.
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Dark Jaguar Offline
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( This post was last modified: 09-07-2020, 05:09 AM by Dark Jaguar )

(09-07-2020, 04:42 AM)Balam Wrote: I was doing some research on tiger killing of gaur, I decided it made sense to make one last post concerning stomach content following my email exchange with Hoogesteijn. This will hopefully help us get a better idea of what to look for when deciding if an animal is gorged or not when captured and pictures of said captures are available.

Here is a picture of a tigress that had killed a gaur and consumed a lot of meat to the point of limit. From the side angle one can see that the midsection of cats expands not only vertically but also horizontally, like a balloon, when actually gorged:


*This image is copyright of its original author

Jaguars are said to be able to consume up to 25 kg of meat in one single seating, which would create a similar look in their mid-section as 20-25 kg represent 1/6th of the mass of an extremely large male and one a fifth of an average male of 115 kg.

When we look at the pictures of the captures from Lopez, one can see that his stomach does not protrude forward as he lays on the ground, it is flat. It does lay downwards, but this is to be expected of jaguars who have wide vertical sections with short limbs:


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Compare his mid-section to that of an actually gorged felid as the tigress above, and it's pretty clear he was empty, just like the Jaguar ID stated.

Asesino, the large male jaguar hunted by Siemel quoted as having weighed 158 kg, on the other hand, does show some stomach content as its stomach is expanded on the side:


*This image is copyright of its original author

Looking at the jaguar's proportions, I estimate 5-7 kg of stomach content inside of him, as he was far from gorged, but not empty either. My guess is that Asesino probably weighed in between 150-152 kg empty, which is around the maximum size that Hoogesteijn stated for Pantanal males, and is around the same size range as Lopez, and estimated large jaguars like Edno or Joker who may wader in the range as well.

Here is a picture of the head of Asesino, clearly he was a huge individual, a prime example of the size potential of Pantanal jaguars:


*This image is copyright of its original author

While agree that we should always strive to know as many details as possible of the state of an animal when it was weighed, we shouldn't be quick to dismiss very high values as "gorged individuals", not very low values (as is the case with Jairzao) as individuals in dire state. It's best to have an open mind and look at it from an objective perspective. Just like humans, there are several factors that contribute to how much an animal grows and we should keep them in mind when analyzing them.


Very interesting point on stomach content.


By the way there are other adjustments to be done on the table. when they are all done let me know.
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Dark Jaguar Offline
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( This post was last modified: 09-07-2020, 02:44 PM by Dark Jaguar )

(09-07-2020, 05:20 AM)Balam Wrote:
(09-07-2020, 05:07 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote:
(09-07-2020, 04:42 AM)Balam Wrote: I was doing some research on tiger killing of gaur, I decided it made sense to make one last post concerning stomach content following my email exchange with Hoogesteijn. This will hopefully help us get a better idea of what to look for when deciding if an animal is gorged or not when captured and pictures of said captures are available.

Here is a picture of a tigress that had killed a gaur and consumed a lot of meat to the point of limit. From the side angle one can see that the midsection of cats expands not only vertically but also horizontally, like a balloon, when actually gorged:


*This image is copyright of its original author

Jaguars are said to be able to consume up to 25 kg of meat in one single seating, which would create a similar look in their mid-section as 20-25 kg represent 1/6th of the mass of an extremely large male and one a fifth of an average male of 115 kg.

When we look at the pictures of the captures from Lopez, one can see that his stomach does not protrude forward as he lays on the ground, it is flat. It does lay downwards, but this is to be expected of jaguars who have wide vertical sections with short limbs:


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Compare his mid-section to that of an actually gorged felid as the tigress above, and it's pretty clear he was empty, just like the Jaguar ID stated.

Asesino, the large male jaguar hunted by Siemel quoted as having weighed 158 kg, on the other hand, does show some stomach content as its stomach is expanded on the side:


*This image is copyright of its original author

Looking at the jaguar's proportions, I estimate 5-7 kg of stomach content inside of him, as he was far from gorged, but not empty either. My guess is that Asesino probably weighed in between 150-152 kg empty, which is around the maximum size that Hoogesteijn stated for Pantanal males, and is around the same size range as Lopez, and estimated large jaguars like Edno or Joker who may wader in the range as well.

Here is a picture of the head of Asesino, clearly he was a huge individual, a prime example of the size potential of Pantanal jaguars:


*This image is copyright of its original author

While agree that we should always strive to know as many details as possible of the state of an animal when it was weighed, we shouldn't be quick to dismiss very high values as "gorged individuals", not very low values (as is the case with Jairzao) as individuals in dire state. It's best to have an open mind and look at it from an objective perspective. Just like humans, there are several factors that contribute to how much an animal grows and we should keep them in mind when analyzing them.


Very interesting point on stomach content.


By the way there are other adjustments to be done on the table. when they are all done let me know.
It's done, I'll post the updated table once you provide the new weights so it's complete. Let me know when you're ready.


@Balam

Its not all done yet, Only Juru was removed.

If I post the new ones now the average will turn inaccurate since there are still 3 repeated males in the table that are the same.

Matheus Manco, M&M, and the ''unknown'' Moreira sourced male are all the same animal as I already explained on the adjustment post.

Keeping M&M and Matheus Manco at same table would be the same as keeping Tiago Cerrado male twice in the cerrado jaguar table, one with his 92 kg (first capture) and another Tiago with his 117 kg. (second capture) and on Matheus case there's even a third one of him which is the Moreira sourced ''unknown one''.

M&M and the Moreira sourced 134 kg ''unknown male'' shall be removed, Only Matheus Manco of 134 kg shall remain.

And just add 4 years old on Matheus Manco's age as it was his estimated age when he was first captured in February 2018.

Also the 115 kg jaguar name should be ''Susto'' but its still Scare.

The young 100 kg male should be ''Santi'' but its still Sati.


And lastly the Furtado sourced jaguars aren't in the south pantanal area yet. They're still in the unknown area in yellow.


Take your time. I will wait whatever time it takes.  Happy  



*This image is copyright of its original author
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Dark Jaguar Offline
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Amazonic adult male 47 kg.

https://www.acritica.com/channels/govern...ustentavel

Mamirauá reserve - Central Amazon - Brazil.

One jaguar was captured by researchers of the Instituto Mamirauá in the Amazon.

According to the Jaguar researcher Emiliano Ramalho, Coordinator of the Projeto Iauaretê, the jaguar is in very good health conditions.

'' The jaguar captured was an adult animal, healthy, and weighed 47 kg. The scars on his face means he is probably already fighting other jaguars to mate''

said, Ramalho. This is a region in Mamirauá - Amazon with very high density of jaguars with high chances of seeing them.




*This image is copyright of its original author
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Balam Offline
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I'm gonna share another one of the many emails I've been exchanging with Hoogesteijn on here as o believe he touches on a couple of important points to keep in mind when discussing things like weight averages


*This image is copyright of its original author

"The weights of the jaguars simply express the genetic potential and growth for them in good feeding conditions. What has been seen in the state park Encontro das Aguas and the ranches of Sao Beto (in association with research and conservation from Panthera) and Jofre Velho (of Panthera Brazil), with the lack of total hunting since at least 15 years and subsequent high prey abundance, the jaguars express that potential (average weight of 115 kg, he has seen and revised the table made on here), which varies among individuals, but shows that the population is strong and healthy."

He then reiterates the importance of preserving the population in a long-term basis, especially now with the issues concerning the fires.

So what Rafael is confirming on here is what some of us had been saying for a while, the mass of not only jaguars but all animals will directly decrease if the genetic material and food abundance drop. This is why the weights from the 1970's showcase much different values and cannot be taken as infallible or relevant in comparison to today's conditions. Something similar has been witnessed with the decrease in size of Siberian tigers, the reduction of suitable prey populations and the low genetic material has been the contributor for their lesser current weights compared to centuries ago.

This is why I don't think that we should focus too much and hopefully we can move on from the weight average obsession. Weight averages are volatile and bound to change with the individuals included in the sample and the conditions of said individuals. Our focus, in my opinion, should be on promoting ways to foster the conservation of these animals in a long-term basis as Rafael alluded. There's never going to be a weight average set in stone for any species of animals, individuals will vary in size and composition.
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Dark Jaguar Offline
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North/Central/South Pantanal jaguars.

From the study of ( SEROLOGICAL AND MOLECULAR DETECTION OF INFECTIOUS AGENTS IN FREE LIVING JAGUARS (PANTHERA ONCA) IN CONSERVATION UNITS OF MATO GROSSO PANTANAL, BRAZIL )

https://ri.ufmt.br/bitstream/1/537/1/DIS...0Onuma.pdf


So in the study it includes datas about the captured jaguars for the study as well as their weights.


*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author


@Balam

NOTE: Don't add the 70 kg male from Central Pantanal cause he wasn't healthy and died 45 days later after the capture, check bellow what they say about their conditions including that male. (Page 57).  https://ri.ufmt.br/bitstream/1/537/1/DIS...0Onuma.pdf

''The general clinical status of all animals at the time of capture was considered very good, except animal 1, which showed low body weight and dermatological signs suggestive of systemic disease (thin and opaque coat) and died 45 days after capture, but showed intense movement until the receipt of signs of mortality sent via satellite by the collar installed there.  Unfortunately, due to the logistic difficulty to the site and the intervention of scavenging animals in the carcass, it was not possible to arrive in time to perform necropsy and collection of appropriate biological material for exams that could help in the postmortem diagnosis.''




This table bellow is from a study by Gediendson on jaguar semen collections for future conservation of the species ( Pharmacological collection and cryopreservation of semen from large cats kept in captivity and captured in free life with the use of snare traps ). https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/bdaf/04...014008.pdf

It includes 11 male jaguars who got their semen collected.

There are 6 from captivity and 5 wild ones ( 4 from Pantanal and 1 from Caatinga ).


*This image is copyright of its original author



@Balam

NOTE: Don't add the 130 kg male cause he is Sossego, Gendiedson mentions him in one of the first pages of the study as well as Lampião Caatinga male who is the wild Caatinga jaguar from Gendiendson's table.






So not including the 130 kg male for being Sossego and also Not including the 70 kg male for being in dire conditions with signs of suggestive of systemic disease and died 45 days after captured Only these 9 jags bellow shall be included to the table.

@Balam

Males to join the table are from: 4 from North Pantanal, 3 from South Pantanal and 2 from Central Pantanal.

ID                                     Weight                   Source                               Area                          Age
Animal 3                             110 kg                CENAP/ICMBio                C.Pantanal               8 y.o
Animal 4                             75 kg                 CENAP/ICMBio                C.Pantanal                6 y.o
Animal 5                             82 kg                 CENAP/ICMBio                 N. Pantanal              6 y.o
Animal 6                             110 kg               CENAP/ICMBio                 N.Pantanal               4 y.o
Animal 7                             102 kg               CENAP/ICMBio                 N.Pantanal               7 y.o
Animal 8                             99 kg                 CENAP/ICMBio                N.Pantanal                7 y.o
Po7                                   96 kg                  Gediendson                       S.Pantanal                 6 y.o
Po8                                   101 kg                Gediendson                       S.Pantanal                 8 y.o
Po10                                 115 kg                Gediendson                       S.Pantanal                 7 y.o
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