There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
09-01-2023, 02:18 AM( This post was last modified: 09-01-2023, 02:19 AM by Mdz123 )
(08-29-2023, 12:08 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @criollo2mil yeah true, iirc there were 8 cubs in 2009, not sure if from 2 or 3 litters, but there's also the possibility that BB's Tsalala daughters had WSM as grandfathers from both sides.
WSM controlled the Ximhungwe pride, and the Othawa Pride ( where Split Rocks come from ) lived close by. Split Rocks sired BB's daughters.
Some say Split Rocks resembled WSM a lot, if they were sired by WSM it'd add more inbreeding anyway.
So bascially a lot of this inbreeding was caused by the WSM having too many decendents that didnt move off to to other areas and stayed in SS. At least it doesnt seem to have too big of an impact as the lion population remains thriving, mostly due to the totally unrelated genes of Majingilane, Matimba, N'was, PCM etc
(08-29-2023, 12:08 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @criollo2mil yeah true, iirc there were 8 cubs in 2009, not sure if from 2 or 3 litters, but there's also the possibility that BB's Tsalala daughters had WSM as grandfathers from both sides.
WSM controlled the Ximhungwe pride, and the Othawa Pride ( where Split Rocks come from ) lived close by. Split Rocks sired BB's daughters.
Some say Split Rocks resembled WSM a lot, if they were sired by WSM it'd add more inbreeding anyway.
So bascially a lot of this inbreeding was caused by the WSM having too many decendents that didnt move off to to other areas and stayed in SS. At least it doesnt seem to have too big of an impact as the lion population remains thriving, mostly due to the totally unrelated genes of Majingilane, Matimba, N'was, PCM etc
And don't forget the Birminghams, probably one of the most successful coalitions in terms of siring offspring.
(06-08-2022, 07:51 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: Other younger Mhangeni female seems to be limping, is that old limp? I remember her being injured quite some time ago
Yes....shes known as the limping M12 . old hunting incident...its not as bad these days but those thing tend to come and go.
(08-29-2023, 12:08 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @criollo2mil yeah true, iirc there were 8 cubs in 2009, not sure if from 2 or 3 litters, but there's also the possibility that BB's Tsalala daughters had WSM as grandfathers from both sides.
WSM controlled the Ximhungwe pride, and the Othawa Pride ( where Split Rocks come from ) lived close by. Split Rocks sired BB's daughters.
Some say Split Rocks resembled WSM a lot, if they were sired by WSM it'd add more inbreeding anyway.
So bascially a lot of this inbreeding was caused by the WSM having too many decendents that didnt move off to to other areas and stayed in SS. At least it doesnt seem to have too big of an impact as the lion population remains thriving, mostly due to the totally unrelated genes of Majingilane, Matimba, N'was, PCM etc
And don't forget the Birminghams, probably one of the most successful coalitions in terms of siring offspring.
True and probably the number 1 coalition but they also were involved in the inbreeding with the nkuhuma pride and the torchwood pride
(08-29-2023, 12:08 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @criollo2mil yeah true, iirc there were 8 cubs in 2009, not sure if from 2 or 3 litters, but there's also the possibility that BB's Tsalala daughters had WSM as grandfathers from both sides.
WSM controlled the Ximhungwe pride, and the Othawa Pride ( where Split Rocks come from ) lived close by. Split Rocks sired BB's daughters.
Some say Split Rocks resembled WSM a lot, if they were sired by WSM it'd add more inbreeding anyway.
So bascially a lot of this inbreeding was caused by the WSM having too many decendents that didnt move off to to other areas and stayed in SS. At least it doesnt seem to have too big of an impact as the lion population remains thriving, mostly due to the totally unrelated genes of Majingilane, Matimba, N'was, PCM etc
And don't forget the Birminghams, probably one of the most successful coalitions in terms of siring offspring.
(09-01-2023, 08:03 PM)Tylermartin! Wrote: True and probably the number 1 coalition but they also were involved in the inbreeding with the nkuhuma pride and the torchwood pride
im confused how so? can you elaborate? how are they in-breeding in the Nkuhuma? or TW for that matter?
is it becuase there are Matimba offspring in those prides? cause while that is the case and both came from the Birmingham pride....theyre from different generations sired by different males.
(09-01-2023, 08:03 PM)Tylermartin! Wrote: True and probably the number 1 coalition but they also were involved in the inbreeding with the nkuhuma pride and the torchwood pride
im confused how so? can you elaborate? how are they in-breeding in the Nkuhuma? or TW for that matter?
is it becuase there are Matimba offspring in those prides? cause while that is the case and both came from the Birmingham pride....theyre from different generations sired by different males.
Aren’t the matimbas the uncles of the Birmingham males the Birmingham males sired cubs with the matimbas daughters some of the Birmingham males are sired by sisters and mothers of the matimbas no? Either way matimbas are related to the Birmingham but to your point maybe not as much because of nduna but they are related just like the prides the mbiri males have taken over and the northern black dam males
(09-01-2023, 08:03 PM)Tylermartin! Wrote: True and probably the number 1 coalition but they also were involved in the inbreeding with the nkuhuma pride and the torchwood pride
im confused how so? can you elaborate? how are they in-breeding in the Nkuhuma? or TW for that matter?
is it becuase there are Matimba offspring in those prides? cause while that is the case and both came from the Birmingham pride....theyre from different generations sired by different males.
Aren’t the matimbas the uncles of the Birmingham males the Birmingham males sired cubs with the matimbas daughters some of the Birmingham males are sired by sisters and mothers of the matimbas no? Either way matimbas are related to the Birmingham but to your point maybe not as much because of nduna but they are related just like the prides the mbiri males have taken over and the northern black dam males
Yes but I guess I don’t consider that in-breeding.
The least diverse combination would be if a Birmingham happened to be the son of a littermate to the Matimba sure that happened to be who that particular Birmingham mates with. Hopefully you see what I’m trying to illustrate.
In-breeding to me is what’s happening in the Mbiri pride w Mandevu and Ncila. And what could happen soon w RRM with his daughters in Nharu. Those females are 38-40 months old and could enter estrus soon.
(09-01-2023, 08:03 PM)Tylermartin! Wrote: True and probably the number 1 coalition but they also were involved in the inbreeding with the nkuhuma pride and the torchwood pride
im confused how so? can you elaborate? how are they in-breeding in the Nkuhuma? or TW for that matter?
is it becuase there are Matimba offspring in those prides? cause while that is the case and both came from the Birmingham pride....theyre from different generations sired by different males.
Aren’t the matimbas the uncles of the Birmingham males the Birmingham males sired cubs with the matimbas daughters some of the Birmingham males are sired by sisters and mothers of the matimbas no? Either way matimbas are related to the Birmingham but to your point maybe not as much because of nduna but they are related just like the prides the mbiri males have taken over and the northern black dam males
Yes but I guess I don’t consider that in-breeding.
The least diverse combination would be if a Birmingham happened to be the son of a littermate to the Matimba sure that happened to be who that particular Birmingham mates with. Hopefully you see what I’m trying to illustrate.
In-breeding to me is what’s happening in the Mbiri pride w Mandevu and Ncila. And what could happen soon w RRM with his daughters in Nharu. Those females are 38-40 months old and could enter estrus soon.
Loonkito is another example, I read that he was seen mating with his granddaughters, he was dominant over that pride for so long. Then we read that the Crater cats at one point could all be traced back to the original 15, and the majority of them could be traced back to 4 lionesses that were born in the Crater in 1957.
(09-01-2023, 08:03 PM)Tylermartin! Wrote: True and probably the number 1 coalition but they also were involved in the inbreeding with the nkuhuma pride and the torchwood pride
im confused how so? can you elaborate? how are they in-breeding in the Nkuhuma? or TW for that matter?
is it becuase there are Matimba offspring in those prides? cause while that is the case and both came from the Birmingham pride....theyre from different generations sired by different males.
Aren’t the matimbas the uncles of the Birmingham males the Birmingham males sired cubs with the matimbas daughters some of the Birmingham males are sired by sisters and mothers of the matimbas no? Either way matimbas are related to the Birmingham but to your point maybe not as much because of nduna but they are related just like the prides the mbiri males have taken over and the northern black dam males
Yes but I guess I don’t consider that in-breeding.
The least diverse combination would be if a Birmingham happened to be the son of a littermate to the Matimba sure that happened to be who that particular Birmingham mates with. Hopefully you see what I’m trying to illustrate.
In-breeding to me is what’s happening in the Mbiri pride w Mandevu and Ncila. And what could happen soon w RRM with his daughters in Nharu. Those females are 38-40 months old and could enter estrus soon.
You can’t consider one inbreeding and not the other they both are they are related and mating doesn’t matter how closely related It’s inbreeding and I just read today that the reason there aren’t many cubs in the pride are because of mandevu and ncile BUT that is close inbreeding and Birmingham males it’s not closely related inbreeding but it’s still inbreeding you can’t say it’s not when they came from the same pride and have the same mothers and aunts all that kinda stuff that we don’t know but can 100% assume
(09-01-2023, 08:03 PM)Tylermartin! Wrote: True and probably the number 1 coalition but they also were involved in the inbreeding with the nkuhuma pride and the torchwood pride
im confused how so? can you elaborate? how are they in-breeding in the Nkuhuma? or TW for that matter?
is it becuase there are Matimba offspring in those prides? cause while that is the case and both came from the Birmingham pride....theyre from different generations sired by different males.
Aren’t the matimbas the uncles of the Birmingham males the Birmingham males sired cubs with the matimbas daughters some of the Birmingham males are sired by sisters and mothers of the matimbas no? Either way matimbas are related to the Birmingham but to your point maybe not as much because of nduna but they are related just like the prides the mbiri males have taken over and the northern black dam males
Yes but I guess I don’t consider that in-breeding.
The least diverse combination would be if a Birmingham happened to be the son of a littermate to the Matimba sure that happened to be who that particular Birmingham mates with. Hopefully you see what I’m trying to illustrate.
In-breeding to me is what’s happening in the Mbiri pride w Mandevu and Ncila. And what could happen soon w RRM with his daughters in Nharu. Those females are 38-40 months old and could enter estrus soon.
You can’t consider one inbreeding and not the other they both are they are related and mating doesn’t matter how closely related It’s inbreeding and I just read today that the reason there aren’t many cubs in the pride are because of mandevu and ncile BUT that is close inbreeding and Birmingham males it’s not closely related inbreeding but it’s still inbreeding you can’t say it’s not when they came from the same pride and have the same mothers and aunts all that kinda stuff that we don’t know but can 100% assume
Mandevu and Nchile are 100% mating with their mothers and sisters. The Nkuhuma pride weren't mating with their fathers or brothers, that's the difference. Yes it does matter how closely related the lions are, that's nonsense. Mating with a nephew, niece, cousin or more distant cousin is not the same thing as mating with a sibling or parent.
(08-29-2023, 12:08 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @criollo2mil yeah true, iirc there were 8 cubs in 2009, not sure if from 2 or 3 litters, but there's also the possibility that BB's Tsalala daughters had WSM as grandfathers from both sides.
WSM controlled the Ximhungwe pride, and the Othawa Pride ( where Split Rocks come from ) lived close by. Split Rocks sired BB's daughters.
Some say Split Rocks resembled WSM a lot, if they were sired by WSM it'd add more inbreeding anyway.
So bascially a lot of this inbreeding was caused by the WSM having too many decendents that didnt move off to to other areas and stayed in SS. At least it doesnt seem to have too big of an impact as the lion population remains thriving, mostly due to the totally unrelated genes of Majingilane, Matimba, N'was, PCM etc
And don't forget the Birminghams, probably one of the most successful coalitions in terms of siring offspring.
Bboys didnt help in reducing inbreeding, they came from same pride as Matimbas and mated with many daughters of their half brothers but yes they still are very succesful
