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Lions of Timbavati

United States afortich Offline
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(09-29-2021, 12:10 AM)Timbavati Wrote:
(09-28-2021, 09:44 PM)afortich Wrote: BYM is more calm or less dominant maybe because he got really beat-up/injured by the Ross males many times when he was younger. Greetings!!

That's a great observation my friend and very valuable one. BTW, Welcome to the forum, hope you enjoy of it. If you ever needs help, send me a PM and I'll help you.

Thank you so much!!
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Timbavati Offline
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(09-29-2021, 01:53 AM)afortich Wrote:
(09-29-2021, 12:10 AM)Timbavati Wrote:
(09-28-2021, 09:44 PM)afortich Wrote: BYM is more calm or less dominant maybe because he got really beat-up/injured by the Ross males many times when he was younger. Greetings!!

That's a great observation my friend and very valuable one. BTW, Welcome to the forum, hope you enjoy of it. If you ever needs help, send me a PM and I'll help you.

Thank you so much!!

Always a pleasure
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Timbavati Offline
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The lead lioness from the Jacaranda pride glances back at the school of sub-adults who are fast approaching maturity. The success of her and her sisters litters are pivotal to the rebuilding of this once formidable and mighty pride.
Photo credit: Cathan Moore,posted: 25.09.2021

*This image is copyright of its original author
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Poland Potato Offline
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I just love how everyone here is already painting Torchwood male as agressive and confident and Birmingham as calm and less dominant just because on one ocassion Torchwwod was seen with a female lol 

1. We do not even know if this lionesses was in eostrus. As far as I remember Torchwood was just seen in company with her, not mating.
2. I could have been just full coincidance - Torchwwod could have been in right place and right time to encounter that female while Birmingham was away.

Also theory of that BIrmingham male could be less agressive because he used to be submissive towards Ross males doesn't make any sense to me. Also worth pointing out that Mlovathi Mapogo, for many embodiment of agressive male lions probally very bullied a lot through their nomadic life due to be by far the youngest within a coalition. It doesn't make sense for me that being bullied by Ross males could influence Birmingham male to be less agressive and confident.
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South Africa Slayerd Offline
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(09-29-2021, 02:49 AM)Potato Wrote: I just love how everyone here is already painting Torchwood male as agressive and confident and Birmingham as calm and less dominant just because on one ocassion Torchwwod was seen with a female lol 

1. We do not even know if this lionesses was in eostrus. As far as I remember Torchwood was just seen in company with her, not mating.
2. I could have been just full coincidance - Torchwwod could have been in right place and right time to encounter that female while Birmingham was away.

Also theory of that BIrmingham male could be less agressive because he used to be submissive towards Ross males doesn't make any sense to me. Also worth pointing out that Mlovathi Mapogo, for many embodiment of agressive male lions probally very bullied a lot through their nomadic life due to be by far the youngest within a coalition. It doesn't make sense for me that being bullied by Ross males could influence Birmingham male to be less agressive and confident.

No we're painting him as more aggressive because guides and photographers have actually said he is more aggressive. He also chased the Birmingham Subs and it doesn't matter if she was in oestrus or not, he displayed dominance. He has also been seen marking trees, something only dominant pride males do.
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Poland Potato Offline
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(09-29-2021, 03:27 AM)Slayerd Wrote: No we're painting him as more aggressive because guides and photographers have actually said he is more aggressive.
Which ones? 

(09-29-2021, 03:27 AM)Slayerd Wrote: He also chased the Birmingham Subs
And why do you assume Birmingham male did not? Also even if he did not than that would be because he still has bond with them, it doesn't mean he is calm.

(09-29-2021, 03:27 AM)Slayerd Wrote: it doesn't matter if she was in oestrus
This is crucial. Obviously if female is not willing to mate, there is no reason to compete for her
(09-29-2021, 03:27 AM)Slayerd Wrote: or not, he displayed dominance
Not necessarily, as I wrote at points 1 and 2 in my previous comment.

(09-29-2021, 03:27 AM)Slayerd Wrote: He has also been seen marking trees, something only dominant pride males do.
It has nothink to do with being more or less calm. Also Birmingham male is doing some thinks, so I do not get how that would be proving that Torchwood is more agressive.
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Timbavati Offline
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(09-29-2021, 04:02 AM)Potato Wrote:
(09-29-2021, 03:27 AM)Slayerd Wrote: No we're painting him as more aggressive because guides and photographers have actually said he is more aggressive.
Which ones? 
Brett Marneweck has told me that the Torchwood was more aggressive than the Birmingham young male.
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Poland Potato Offline
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(09-29-2021, 04:23 AM)Timbavati Wrote:
(09-29-2021, 04:02 AM)Potato Wrote:
(09-29-2021, 03:27 AM)Slayerd Wrote: No we're painting him as more aggressive because guides and photographers have actually said he is more aggressive.
Which ones? 
Brett Marneweck has told me that the Torchwood was more aggressive than the Birmingham young male.

On base of what?
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Timbavati Offline
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(09-29-2021, 04:46 AM)Potato Wrote:
(09-29-2021, 04:23 AM)Timbavati Wrote:
(09-29-2021, 04:02 AM)Potato Wrote:
(09-29-2021, 03:27 AM)Slayerd Wrote: No we're painting him as more aggressive because guides and photographers have actually said he is more aggressive.
Which ones? 
Brett Marneweck has told me that the Torchwood was more aggressive than the Birmingham young male.

On base of what?

I will ask further details about such behavior of the Torchwood young male.
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United States afortich Offline
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(09-29-2021, 02:49 AM)Potato Wrote: I just love how everyone here is already painting Torchwood male as agressive and confident and Birmingham as calm and less dominant just because on one ocassion Torchwwod was seen with a female lol 

1. We do not even know if this lionesses was in eostrus. As far as I remember Torchwood was just seen in company with her, not mating.
2. I could have been just full coincidance - Torchwwod could have been in right place and right time to encounter that female while Birmingham was away.

Also theory of that BIrmingham male could be less agressive because he used to be submissive towards Ross males doesn't make any sense to me. Also worth pointing out that Mlovathi Mapogo, for many embodiment of agressive male lions probally very bullied a lot through their nomadic life due to be by far the youngest within a coalition. It doesn't make sense for me that being bullied by Ross males could influence Birmingham male to be less agressive and confident.

I haven't seen BYM and TYM interacting with each other, so I don't know who is the dominant. Moreover, it is too early to say who's the dominant male because things will change everyday. However, bullying a person or animal will definitely impact their behaviors. Therefore, with the injured leg BYM suffered, for sure it affected somehow his behavior for good or bad. Greetings!
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South Africa Slayerd Offline
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(09-29-2021, 04:46 AM)Potato Wrote:
(09-29-2021, 04:23 AM)Timbavati Wrote:
(09-29-2021, 04:02 AM)Potato Wrote:
(09-29-2021, 03:27 AM)Slayerd Wrote: No we're painting him as more aggressive because guides and photographers have actually said he is more aggressive.
Which ones? 
Brett Marneweck has told me that the Torchwood was more aggressive than the Birmingham young male.

On base of what?

Ngl, it's almost like you're nitpicking

1. He didn't chased the Birmingham Subs alone? There is literally picture evidence of him and him alone right behind them marking trees and following them on this thread. Yes the Birmingham Male might have participated but it's clear who the instigator was. 
2.  With the lioness, the fact that he was said to be keeping the Birmingham Young Male away from her by actual guides is literally making your point invalid yet you're nitpicking to make it less factual.
3. Who said he was more aggressive? Ziggi Hugo said it and Brett Marnewick said it. Both of which have been our regular undates on the two. Again, nitpicking to make it less factual. 

Other showings of aggressive behavior are him instigating the chase on Hyenas and even the first video of them hunting a Buffalo together shows the Torchwood Male growl aggressively at the Birmingham Male whilst starting to eat.
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lionuk Offline
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Black Dam young male at Thornybush. 
Photo credit: Matty Holland


*This image is copyright of its original author
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Thierry Offline
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Aggressive does not necessarily mean dominant. BYM was under threat from two prime males.
He adapted his behavior to these circumstances.

Now he is himself part of a colalition and is confronted with the circumstances, which arise from it.
Torchwood male has known this a little longer and is perhaps less accommodating than BYM.

We will see what it will give, when they are really territorial males.

We also know, that dominance relationships can vary in a coalition.
So let's not speculate too early and let's observe.
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Tr1x24 Offline
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(09-29-2021, 11:56 AM)Thierry Wrote: Aggressive does not necessarily mean dominant. BYM was under threat from two prime males.
He adapted his behavior to these circumstances.

Now he is himself part of a colalition and is confronted with the circumstances, which arise from it.
Torchwood male has known this a little longer and is perhaps less accommodating than BYM.

We will see what it will give, when they are really territorial males.

We also know, that dominance relationships can vary in a coalition.
So let's not speculate too early and let's observe.

Yep, this discussion is pretty pointless at this point, they are only together few months and dont control any pride yet.
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Poland Potato Offline
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(09-29-2021, 06:59 AM)Slayerd Wrote:
(09-29-2021, 04:46 AM)Potato Wrote:
(09-29-2021, 04:23 AM)Timbavati Wrote:
(09-29-2021, 04:02 AM)Potato Wrote:
(09-29-2021, 03:27 AM)Slayerd Wrote: No we're painting him as more aggressive because guides and photographers have actually said he is more aggressive.
Which ones? 
Brett Marneweck has told me that the Torchwood was more aggressive than the Birmingham young male.

On base of what?

Ngl, it's almost like you're nitpicking

1. He didn't chased the Birmingham Subs alone? There is literally picture evidence of him and him alone right behind them marking trees and following them on this thread. Yes the Birmingham Male might have participated but it's clear who the instigator was. 
2.  With the lioness, the fact that he was said to be keeping the Birmingham Young Male away from her by actual guides is literally making your point invalid yet you're nitpicking to make it less factual.
3. Who said he was more aggressive? Ziggi Hugo said it and Brett Marnewick said it. Both of which have been our regular undates on the two. Again, nitpicking to make it less factual. 

Other showings of aggressive behavior are him instigating the chase on Hyenas and even the first video of them hunting a Buffalo together shows the Torchwood Male growl aggressively at the Birmingham Male whilst starting to eat.

You make totally no sense in all those points beside point 2. I Torchwood would beat up BIrmingham in fight for mating rights then of course it you be showing that he is more dominant one, althrough since we do not know if that Avoca female was willling to mate then in the end it is not prove that Torchwood is more dominant of the two. Arguing that growl at the kill is a prove to Torchwood be more agressive or that he chasse after Birmingham subs makes no sense what so ever. Any lion growls at the kill, any male and many females will chasse hyenas and any adult male and some females somethimes as well will chasse nomadic subadults. Those are just ordinary stuff.
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