There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
Has anyone considered that the PCM are still on the younger side!! I would assume their drive to Mate is high. Would explain their "transport" ability. Would also explain them moving in to mate then leaving! Look SS has 3 pairs of males with territories that are huge. I blame all these other males for NOT stepping up to the plate and claiming a pride and territory. If no other males claim a pride then how can you blame the PCMs for expanding their territory. At least the Ndhzengas and Gijimas stand up for what is theirs - these other lions want to chase buffalo, or are hurt and lost confidence, or are too young or too old. PCM are "Kings" they take whats given to them!!! Thats why they are called king of beast.
10-30-2024, 05:41 AM( This post was last modified: 10-30-2024, 05:43 AM by sik94 )
(10-29-2024, 10:35 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: It is fair to judge them on how their decisions impact their lives or attempt to puzzle together what drove an animal to such choices.
True but then you have to judge them from the pov of an instinct driven creature that probably isn't self-aware or concious of what's going on. You're judging them from a very human-centric view. Humans have a very different life cycle, we're intelligent beings and it's obvious to us that the parents have a moral duty to raise their kids. Lions do not have this level of intelligence nor do they have the moral judgment to be able to make that differention, it's unfair to judge a fish's ability to climb a tree.
(10-29-2024, 10:35 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Neglect and deliberately are not human terms, they are just descriptive terms of behaviour in general. Otherwise one would have to argue that lions don't hunt, sleep or eat.
Terms like neglect or doing something deliberately assign intent and imply a level of moral judgment that lions are not capable of. Being neglectful usually assumes that you knowingly refused to act, I highly doubt a lion has the ability to make that kind of a judgment call. Saying they are deliberately endangering their cubs assumes that they know the consequences of their actions, all they can really do is respond to the roars of intruding males when they hear them and all dominant males do that including PCMs.
(10-29-2024, 10:35 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: For example, a lioness that constantly disrupts hunts is clearly doing something that negatively impacts the pride she is in. It is fair to say she is a bad huntress.
That analogy is a false equivalent. If a lioness keeps ruining and disrupting hunts, that would make her a bad huntress, I absolutely agree with that. But, if you go further to suggest that she is 'deliberately' ruining hunts or that she is being 'neglctful' to her cubs by KNOWINGLY ruining her hunts despite being concious of the fact that it means the cubs won't get to eat that night, then I have an issue with that.
(10-29-2024, 10:35 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: It is fair to judge them on how their decisions impact their lives or attempt to puzzle together what drove an animal to such choices.
True but then you have to judge them from the pov of an instinct driven creature that probably isn't self-aware or concious of what's going on. You're judging them from a very human-centric view. Humans have a very different life cycle, we're intelligent beings and it's obvious to us that the parents have a moral duty to raise their kids. Lions do not have this level of intelligence nor do they have the moral judgment to be able to make that differention, it's unfair to judge a fish's ability to climb a tree..
Isnt that what you are doing though. Judging an animal for its ability to act like a human. Just becouse they have vastly different morals or make vastly different decissions does not nessasary mean they are mindless.
And obviously lions concider it amoral to kill cubs. Or they wouldnt get that angry protecting them.
Quote:Terms like neglect or doing something deliberately assign intent and imply a level of moral judgment that lions are not capable of. Being neglectful usually assumes that you knowingly refused to act, I highly doubt a lion has the ability to make that kind of a judgment call. Saying they are deliberately endangering their cubs assumes that they know the consequences of their actions, all they can really do is respond to the roars of intruding males when they hear them and all dominant males do that including PCMs.
Neglect just means that you are not doing something. Be it accidentally or deliberatly.
Why wouldnt a lioness understand that walking away from a litter means death to the cubs. If they dont understand that, then how would they know to stick with them.
Quote:That analogy is a false equivalent. If a lioness keeps ruining and disrupting hunts, that would make her a bad huntress, I absolutely agree with that. But, if you go further to suggest that she is 'deliberately' ruining hunts or that she is being 'neglctful' to her cubs by KNOWINGLY ruining her hunts despite being concious of the fact that it means the cubs won't get to eat that night, then I have an issue with that
A young sub knows her skills are inadequate when she starts joining hunts, yet she still does so. Becouse she needs to learn. You cant just refuse to see intend, when if you look into precisely that, the reasons become apparent.
Besides, the bystander effect has been pretty well documented in animals. Its pretty common in social animals that during a hunt, only few animals actually hunt while the rest just pretends to do so to be first there to eat.
Sabi outside of Gijima and N'Was territory is just such a mess. I am crushed if this news is true about poor Tsalala. It was try #1. Maybe Try #2 will be better. Still no news on the Othawa girls either. That is starting to concern me a bit as well especially with all the fighting between Mangheni, Ximungs, and Kambula 2 prides.
Yeah it's sad.. What stings me even more is that in the beginning period of the cubs the PCM's did not visit her (or at least we did not see it) but last couple of weeks we saw multiple visits. So they looked more protected. Or at least I felt that way about the situation. And then they die one by one quickly after each other. Not insinuating here at all by the way that this is due PCM's; just pointing out the sad sequence of highs and lows.
(10-30-2024, 11:55 PM)MrLoesoe Wrote: Yeah it's sad.. What stings me even more is that in the beginning period of the cubs the PCM's did not visit her (or at least we did not see it) but last couple of weeks we saw multiple visits. So they looked more protected. Or at least I felt that way about the situation. And then they die one by one quickly after each other. Not insinuating here at all by the way that this is due PCM's; just pointing out the sad sequence of highs and lows.
I think it's more the age. The cubs got to that age where they are out and about and exploring and not really heeding warnings of danger as much. Sabi has a large Hyena problem as well, so who really knows. Tsalala has done so well by living like a Leopard for a couple of years. She can't do that with cubs.
(10-30-2024, 11:44 PM)T_Ferguson Wrote: Sabi outside of Gijima and N'Was territory is just such a mess.
Or that we dont have nearly as much updates and info what is going on in their areas, so we think all is "perfect".
We pretty much have daily updates from west and north, not so much from MalaMala or south.
Just because we have no news from there, it doesnt mean nothing is happening.
Knock on wood but the gijima and ndzenga prides haven’t lost a member in a long time I mean k2 lost one of her 4 cubs due to mane but other than that I think Birmingham Styx lost her tiny cubs and that’s pretty much it other than the young Styx female that was killed tsalala lost potentially all of her cubs mhangenis lost 4 cubs so yeah not saying all is perfect in the south but if something happens they’d let us know and so far nothing has really happened which is good
