There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(09-02-2024, 11:25 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: they are strong enough to take on rival male lions or atleast deter the PCmales from confronting the two directly two versus two
I don't think they will deter PCMs at all. PCMs have so much confidence that they will just barge in all guns blazing, most coalitions lose their nerve dealing with dealing with lions like that. Same as the smaller Gijima male vs the Nkhulus, when you have that kind of aura and the physicality the PCMs have, most young or recently formed coalitions will fall apart seeing that coming at you. Once the fight starts It's anybody's game cuz let's be honest, they are all big boys and willing to fight. I just don't think NYM and Khanya will stick around if the PCMs came at them full force.
09-03-2024, 06:08 AM( This post was last modified: 09-03-2024, 09:20 AM by afortich )
Confidence is the most important factor in the fight, therefore, PCMs on the paper are the winners.
However, in real life, fights are not won on the paper, therefore, I would have to see it because at least Khanya has shown a lot of confidence during his solo days.
Ultimately, the big issue is that the PCmales have a strong tendency to avoid fights. Not that their confidence is lacking.
They are ignoring Tumbella. It took months for them to completely secure Ximhungwe pride as each time they just left and allowed Nhenha Nym and Tumbella to retake the pride. There is the current fiasco with the Mangheni.
If they fight right now. Sure they will win. But only if they fight. And just chasing them around is not going to cut it here as Nym and co will simply return once the PCmales leave again.
(09-03-2024, 10:07 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Ultimately, the big issue is that the PCmales have a strong tendency to avoid fights. Not that their confidence is lacking.
They are ignoring Tumbella. It took months for them to completely secure Ximhungwe pride as each time they just left and allowed Nhenha Nym and Tumbella to retake the pride. There is the current fiasco with the Mangheni.
If they fight right now. Sure they will win. But only if they fight. And just chasing them around is not going to cut it here as Nym and co will simply return once the PCmales leave again.
I understand your take on the situation, but I do think you present a skewed picture of the PCMs and NYM in particular. I was hesitant to share this, but I was in the Western sector last year when I personally witnessed one PCM (the smaller PCM) chasing both Tumbela AND Nkuhuma at the same time when he found them with the Ximunghwes. The PCMs are confident, and are not shy to chase down rival males, even when outnumbered. When I was there, the smaller PCM actually advanced towards Tumbela and NYM, and it was NYM who started running away first, with Tumbela also running away half a minute later with the smaller PCM chasing after him. While I do think a lot of people are quick to highlight the "invincibility" of the PCMs, I think it's unfair to say they avoid fights. They seem reluctant to finish off fights (possibly out of fear of getting injuries, as we saw in their fight against Tumbela last October, who put up a stern defense) but to say they avoid them mischaracterises their personality. They did not "ignore" Tumbela recently, they chased him off just last week - they simply did not visit the Mangheni pride (because as many have concluded, they are mediocre pride males). It is simply how vast a territory they patrol which makes it difficult to flush out rival males, because their interest is mainly on expansion rather than securing the stability of the region.
The above anecdote also does show that NYM has a tendency to bolt when the situation gets frightening, even when it is 1 v 2 in his favour. I'd be happy to share videos of the confrontation if I knew how to upload damn videos onto this forum (I will have to mute the videos to protect my privacy though).
(09-03-2024, 11:36 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote: Torchwood young male with broken front leg is still alive, not sure if he is one of 3 Torchwood young males who had incident with Kambulas recently:
He's looking good. The injury doesn't seem to be hampering him too badly.
09-03-2024, 05:07 PM( This post was last modified: 09-03-2024, 05:09 PM by Robot00 )
(09-03-2024, 12:52 PM)Vengeous Wrote:
(09-03-2024, 10:07 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Ultimately, the big issue is that the PCmales have a strong tendency to avoid fights. Not that their confidence is lacking.
They are ignoring Tumbella. It took months for them to completely secure Ximhungwe pride as each time they just left and allowed Nhenha Nym and Tumbella to retake the pride. There is the current fiasco with the Mangheni.
If they fight right now. Sure they will win. But only if they fight. And just chasing them around is not going to cut it here as Nym and co will simply return once the PCmales leave again.
I understand your take on the situation, but I do think you present a skewed picture of the PCMs and NYM in particular. I was hesitant to share this, but I was in the Western sector last year when I personally witnessed one PCM (the smaller PCM) chasing both Tumbela AND Nkuhuma at the same time when he found them with the Ximunghwes. The PCMs are confident, and are not shy to chase down rival males, even when outnumbered. When I was there, the smaller PCM actually advanced towards Tumbela and NYM, and it was NYM who started running away first, with Tumbela also running away half a minute later with the smaller PCM chasing after him. While I do think a lot of people are quick to highlight the "invincibility" of the PCMs, I think it's unfair to say they avoid fights. They seem reluctant to finish off fights (possibly out of fear of getting injuries, as we saw in their fight against Tumbela last October, who put up a stern defense) but to say they avoid them mischaracterises their personality. They did not "ignore" Tumbela recently, they chased him off just last week - they simply did not visit the Mangheni pride (because as many have concluded, they are mediocre pride males). It is simply how vast a territory they patrol which makes it difficult to flush out rival males, because their interest is mainly on expansion rather than securing the stability of the region.
The above anecdote also does show that NYM has a tendency to bolt when the situation gets frightening, even when it is 1 v 2 in his favour. I'd be happy to share videos of the confrontation if I knew how to upload damn videos onto this forum (I will have to mute the videos to protect my privacy though).
I'd like to see this video.
What it comes down to is nkuhuma male is not a dependable partner. Ive always had high hopes for him but time and time again he is shown as not a trustworthy partner.
We know that all of his recent partners he has left them out to dry. If only we know he actually left SYM out to dry as well. All signs points to yes he did. If he did so, then it is for certain that nkuhuma is not good to be around because he has shown his true colors since he was young. Not trust worthy.
The only way i can see nkuhuma male ever becomes successful in a coalition is if he has at least two or more stronger partners who can do the heavy lifting and he's just there as a cheerleader. And i would bet he'd be fine with that being at the bottom of the pecking order.
Im also curious how he and SYM won a young skirmish vs pcm. Anyone have a video to that? Did SYM do all the heavy lifting at that time and nkuhuma just stood there roaring for morale support?
09-03-2024, 05:39 PM( This post was last modified: 09-03-2024, 05:41 PM by Ngonya )
(09-03-2024, 05:07 PM)Robot00 Wrote: What it comes down to is nkuhuma male is not a dependable partner. Ive always had high hopes for him but time and time again he is shown as not a trustworthy partner.
Agree.
He is pretty much like Solo Tsalala.
That left his younger partner (Eyrefield). He was said to be near by and did nothing while two Selatis mauled Cleo.
He also left the Kruger male when he arrived at him being mauled by two Charleston males. Solo saw the situation and didnt think twice before running.
Nothing can convince me that Nkuhuma is any different of that.
"But we got no evidence of such behavior from him"
His partners getting mauled and even dying in some situation and people want anyone to believe he somehow coincidentally wasnt present in all those occasions?
Ofc course its possible, but definitly unlikely.
(09-03-2024, 10:07 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Ultimately, the big issue is that the PCmales have a strong tendency to avoid fights. Not that their confidence is lacking.
They are ignoring Tumbella. It took months for them to completely secure Ximhungwe pride as each time they just left and allowed Nhenha Nym and Tumbella to retake the pride. There is the current fiasco with the Mangheni.
If they fight right now. Sure they will win. But only if they fight. And just chasing them around is not going to cut it here as Nym and co will simply return once the PCmales leave again.
I understand your take on the situation, but I do think you present a skewed picture of the PCMs and NYM in particular. I was hesitant to share this, but I was in the Western sector last year when I personally witnessed one PCM (the smaller PCM) chasing both Tumbela AND Nkuhuma at the same time when he found them with the Ximunghwes. The PCMs are confident, and are not shy to chase down rival males, even when outnumbered. When I was there, the smaller PCM actually advanced towards Tumbela and NYM, and it was NYM who started running away first, with Tumbela also running away half a minute later with the smaller PCM chasing after him. While I do think a lot of people are quick to highlight the "invincibility" of the PCMs, I think it's unfair to say they avoid fights. They seem reluctant to finish off fights (possibly out of fear of getting injuries, as we saw in their fight against Tumbela last October, who put up a stern defense) but to say they avoid them mischaracterises their personality. They did not "ignore" Tumbela recently, they chased him off just last week - they simply did not visit the Mangheni pride (because as many have concluded, they are mediocre pride males). It is simply how vast a territory they patrol which makes it difficult to flush out rival males, because their interest is mainly on expansion rather than securing the stability of the region.
The above anecdote also does show that NYM has a tendency to bolt when the situation gets frightening, even when it is 1 v 2 in his favour. I'd be happy to share videos of the confrontation if I knew how to upload damn videos onto this forum (I will have to mute the videos to protect my privacy though).
While the PCmale in this case understandably avoided a fight. Its also another example that this has been going on for ages now.
Nym or Tumbella hang out with one of their prides. Then get chased off for a bit. Only to then return once the PCmales leave again and repeat.
Its clear that this chasing isnt working and the PCmales need to escalate their chasing to more aggressive measures. Which is where the problem lies.
Regarding the PCM I wouldn't even say they are mediocre pride males as in the true sense of the word I believe it'd mean they are average, I think they are straight up below average in how well they do what the prides expect them to do for them, to not say "they are bad" and get into discussions of what humans perceive as bad or good.
Their strength is also overrated, I'll also agree with that and plead guilty in having overhyped them in the past, I've seen many hype them as these legendary warriors, some of the strongest duos ever seen and what not.
But when you look at it, with the exception of the weak Nhenha/NK coalition of 6 months who struggled to oust lone Tumbela and was barely territorial for a single month, the PCM have only defeated nomads, the only time they faced a strong prime territorial duo, the Ndhzengas, they lost ( it was a tough clash, of course, but Ndhzengas prevailed ).
Still, overrated or not, it's undeniable that they are strong, definitely above average, and much more than this NK/Talamati coalition which I think cannot handle even a single PCM.
NK/Talamati is probably still weaker than Skorro/NK and Tumbela/NK, coalitions that were already roaring and/or mating, trying to become territorial, and definitely much weaker than NK/Nhenha coalition.
NK/Nhenha who the PCM barely acknowledged as a threat and easily beat them, PCM who by then were weaker than they are now in the peak of their prime and experience, so there's no reason to believe NK/Talamati would stand any chances.
Back in the day with the Styx male the PCM were young nomads and a year younger than NK, so obviously NK/Styx had the advantage.
09-03-2024, 10:29 PM( This post was last modified: 09-04-2024, 01:53 AM by afortich )
(09-03-2024, 10:08 PM)Mapokser Wrote: Regarding the PCM I wouldn't even say they are mediocre pride males as in the true sense of the word I believe it'd mean they are average, I think they are straight up below average in how well they do what the prides expect them to do for them, to not say "they are bad" and get into discussions of what humans perceive as bad or good.
Their strength is also overrated, I'll also agree with that and plead guilty in having overhyped them in the past, I've seen many hype them as these legendary warriors, some of the strongest duos ever seen and what not.
But when you look at it, with the exception of the weak Nhenha/NK coalition of 6 months who struggled to oust lone Tumbela and was barely territorial for a single month, the PCM have only defeated nomads, the only time they faced a strong prime territorial duo, the Ndhzengas, they lost ( it was a tough clash, of course, but Ndhzengas prevailed ).
Still, overrated or not, it's undeniable that they are strong, definitely above average, and much more than this NK/Talamati coalition which I think cannot handle even a single PCM.
NK/Talamati is probably still weaker than Skorro/NK and Tumbela/NK, coalitions that were already roaring and/or mating, trying to become territorial, and definitely much weaker than NK/Nhenha coalition.
NK/Nhenha who the PCM barely acknowledged as a threat and easily beat them, PCM who by then were weaker than they are now in the peak of their prime and experience, so there's no reason to believe NK/Talamati would stand any chances.
Back in the day with the Styx male the PCM were young nomads and a year younger than NK, so obviously NK/Styx had the advantage.
Mostly agree with what you said above my friend except for the part that 1 PCM by himself would take on Khanya, this scenario I would have to see.
Khanya/Talamati appears not to be easily intimidated by other lions. Dad/Uncle Mohawk was recently more uncomfortable by his presence than the other way around, dominated one of the S. BDM, and has shown battle injuries a number of times in the past.
(09-03-2024, 09:34 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: While the PCmale in this case understandably avoided a fight. Its also another example that this has been going on for ages now.
Nym or Tumbella hang out with one of their prides. Then get chased off for a bit. Only to then return once the PCmales leave again and repeat.
Its clear that this chasing isnt working and the PCmales need to escalate their chasing to more aggressive measures. Which is where the problem lies.
What problem?
These males are/where not challenging them.
When they did, or when they found them with pride, they got chased out, and in Nhenha's case, killed.
If nomad is in someones territory, that doesnt mean he is challenging or threat to them.
The whole point of being a territorial male is that you have a territory for yourself and don't share it with other male lions. Regardless of if they are challenging or a threat or not.
Take for instance the Gijimas. Which attacked Tumbella/Nym or the Kambullas the minute they sniffed them out in their area and chased them across the reserve. And it pays off as there are no nomadic lions hanging out for years in their territory.
Even if a nomadic lion isn't challenging the ruling lions. He can also still pose a mayor risk to cubs and pride.
Both as an attacker as mating competition. There is no rule of respect that you first have to declare war before you can start plundering with lions.
(09-03-2024, 10:08 PM)Mapokser Wrote: Regarding the PCM I wouldn't even say they are mediocre pride males as in the true sense of the word I believe it'd mean they are average, I think they are straight up below average in how well they do what the prides expect them to do for them, to not say "they are bad" and get into discussions of what humans perceive as bad or good.
Their strength is also overrated, I'll also agree with that and plead guilty in having overhyped them in the past, I've seen many hype them as these legendary warriors, some of the strongest duos ever seen and what not.
But when you look at it, with the exception of the weak Nhenha/NK coalition of 6 months who struggled to oust lone Tumbela and was barely territorial for a single month, the PCM have only defeated nomads, the only time they faced a strong prime territorial duo, the Ndhzengas, they lost ( it was a tough clash, of course, but Ndhzengas prevailed ).
Still, overrated or not, it's undeniable that they are strong, definitely above average, and much more than this NK/Talamati coalition which I think cannot handle even a single PCM.
NK/Talamati is probably still weaker than Skorro/NK and Tumbela/NK, coalitions that were already roaring and/or mating, trying to become territorial, and definitely much weaker than NK/Nhenha coalition.
NK/Nhenha who the PCM barely acknowledged as a threat and easily beat them, PCM who by then were weaker than they are now in the peak of their prime and experience, so there's no reason to believe NK/Talamati would stand any chances.
Back in the day with the Styx male the PCM were young nomads and a year younger than NK, so obviously NK/Styx had the advantage.
Agree with most of your points. Perhaps a nuance I'd add is that I do think there's very very little to separate the PCMs from the Ndhzengas or the Gijimas strength-wise. I actually think the PCM are victims of their own success and strength - we all considered them to be decent pride males up until April of this year (so for more than a year we thought of them as "good dads"). And that was when they ran into the Nkuhuma pride, who were all in oestrus because they'd lost cubs. And this encounter was a result of K4 mating with them and roaring, thereby attracting the PCMs north, with the Kambula males running away. And ever since then, they've had to patrol a territory far too vast for 2 males. But this only happened because the Kambulas, who are just over a year younger than them, did not put up decent resistance for whatever reason. It is a testament to the PCMs' strength but it has also set up the conditions for their downfall, since now their border has become porous and numerous nomadic males have traversed through the region. I sometimes wonder if they'd never gone north, whether the narrative about the PCMs would be as negative as it is now. If the Kambulas had held their ground, perhaps there'd still be 10 Mangheni cubs and we wouldn't be so worried about Tsalala's cubs.
As for the showdown between the PCMs and the Ndhzengas, I'd like to humbly differ in opinion (slightly) - I do agree that for all intents and purposes, the Ndhzengas "won", but it certainly isn't altogether a clear nor resounding victory to me. The guide who witnessed and first produced videos of the encounter mentioned that the PCMs chased the Ndhzengas ("dominating the show") until the Ndhzengas eventually pushed them back, and it seems like the territorial lines were maintained. I'm not 100% convinced the PCMs would have retreated as swiftly if they hadn't run so deep into Ndhzenga territory - if they had continued to pursue the Ndhzenga all the way to the Londolozi/Mala Mala boundary, I think we'd all consider them utterly stupid, so I think they did the "sensible" thing by retreating back to their territory. To have pushed the Ndhzengas as deep into their own territory as they did... their strength shouldn't be downplayed either, even if I do agree they are overrated. Equally, I do thing the strength of the Ndhzengas is underrated and I think this was a demonstration of their mostly equal strength. (I have attached the guide's description of the clash on Instagram DM with a member of the lion sightings community).
(09-03-2024, 09:34 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: While the PCmale in this case understandably avoided a fight. Its also another example that this has been going on for ages now.
Nym or Tumbella hang out with one of their prides. Then get chased off for a bit. Only to then return once the PCmales leave again and repeat.
Its clear that this chasing isnt working and the PCmales need to escalate their chasing to more aggressive measures. Which is where the problem lies.
What problem?
These males are/where not challenging them.
When they did, or when they found them with pride, they got chased out, and in Nhenha's case, killed.
If nomad is in someones territory, that doesnt mean he is challenging or threat to them.
The whole point of being a territorial male is that you have a territory for yourself and don't share it with other male lions. Regardless of if they are challenging or a threat or not.
Take for instance the Gijimas. Which attacked Tumbella/Nym or the Kambullas the minute they sniffed them out in their area and chased them across the reserve. And it pays off as there are no nomadic lions hanging out for years in their territory.
Even if a nomadic lion isn't challenging the ruling lions. He can also still pose a mayor risk to cubs and pride.
Both as an attacker as mating competition. There is no rule of respect that you first have to declare war before you can start plundering with lions.
Fully agree with all this, just because a coalition / single male isn’t a major threat to the dominant pride males and aren’t actively seeking them out, doesn’t mean they aren’t challenging their authority. Now, would PCMs have ousted Tumbela or killed him if they seen him as a serious threat to them, most likely, but he was a constant threat to their prides and cubs. At one point we had NK, Tumbela and both Talamati brothers hanging around consistently in the West, every now and then the PCMs chased these boys off but never out of the West for good.
I genuinely believe that in some cases nomads are harder to oust than males that strive to be territorial, as the territorial lions once successfully chased off still have enough confidence to go elsewhere and challenge as opposed to the nomads who are content with what they have. At one point I seen this as a case of the PCMs, they ruled too big a territory and nomads were just sneaking in, but it’s become clear some lions prefer life in the West and seem to be comfortable over there. This is not taking anything away from the strength of both PCMs, they are obviously stronger than their competition both then and now, but they have always done a lousy job in defending their territory, aside from killing Nhenna.
