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Lions of Sabi Sands

United States criollo2mil Offline
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ive been in communication w guides since the day they first found him looking disoriented.

sadly, those who I have gotten first hand responses from do not believe he will survive.


there have been several discussions w authorities regarding how much 'human involvement' to have with him and have considered a variety of actions including darting to have veterinary diagnosis. many of the considerations of course are base don whether they believe this is natural, or anthropologic. after much observation and checking in on him,,,they're leaning this is natural (highly suspected to be snake bite).

what follows here are my words/interpretation base don my exchanges w a few personnel:



what sound like to me (my interpretation to a few voice emails) is that they believe he's too far gone for Vet intervention...but will have the Vet do a post mortim (expanded to what they normally for on all deaths).

they had considered Vet intervention to assist but are convinced this is a NATURAL Event...and as such they don't feel compelled to intervene....initially there was at least a thought maybe he was suffering from a non natural poisoning.

the footage i see of him to me has reached a level where I prefer he no longer suffers. to me he seems very uncomfortable and if he indeed is beyond recovery, I prefer his suffering is put to an end. I know its not a popular opinion but to me it is better than to just watch him die a prolonged painful death.
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United States GhostCatP-22 Offline
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I’m still upset that they left Dark Mane Avoca for days after being horribly smashed by buffalos. I wish he was humanely euthanized. It was sad, amazing and inspiring to see “the heart of a lion” and how mentally strong DM was…was still trying to find his family to the end.
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Germany BA0701 Online
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Video from Painted Dog, of them checking on him. It does not appear that they darted him, only checked on him from the truck. He does get up after the truck leaves, but only to move a couple of feet. When he goes to lay down his belly looks distended, the opposite of what we typically see when they haven't eaten for a bit. I hate seeing him this way.




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Germany BA0701 Online
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Btw, I wanted to add, I do not believe this is rabies, as he seems to be drinking plenty of water.
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Germany BA0701 Online
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Video just dropped on Painted Dog, saying they believe it is related to TB.




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United States criollo2mil Offline
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(11-07-2023, 08:52 PM)BA0701 Wrote: Video just dropped on Painted Dog, saying they believe it is related to TB.





so I wanted to add that I have seen comments (and heard) regarding the TB component and suspicions.

the first comment I will make is that its almost a foregone conclusion that over 90-95% of the lions in the region have been exposed to TB. in most cases it simply lays dormant as the Lion's immune system maintains it suppressed.

TB ususally manifests in lions with compromised immune systems...what compromises them comes in many different forms....old age is very common factor.

in the case of S8, I have been told by some...that he apparently (I myself do not have first hand knowledge this happened) had some type of incident w a Buffalo and was seen with swolen face and at least one guide said he had lost canines.

the thought here is that the incident triggered an immune response but that it also allowed the TB to overtake his body.

I am no expert...i had a (maybe naive perspective) that TB takes a long time to hurt a lion and especially a strong one like S8.

after the two Talamati Lionesses died of very similar rapid decline, I may be thinking differently. and MAybe TB could really take on a very aggresiv eform and kill rather quickly.

i do know from a good source that both lionesses were tested post mortim and indeed tested positive for TB (but that isnt particularly a surprise) since like i mentioned, their estimates say 95% of these lions would test as such.....in their cases, what I have never had clarified is 'what triggered" if anything the TB response and the rapid decline. both lionesses seemed quite healthy until very very near their deaths.

from what I have gathered in discussion from authorities,,,if/when S8 dies, they will likely do an extended test (abive and beyond their typical protocol) to identify toxins or other pathogens in his system to maybe identify a more definitive cause...if they do so, it would be because there has now been three lions from this same family that have died in a rapid rate. maybe just maybe their deaths wont go in vain and they can get to the bottom of what could be at play...mitigate it for the others.
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Germany BA0701 Online
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(11-07-2023, 09:31 PM)criollo2mil Wrote:
(11-07-2023, 08:52 PM)BA0701 Wrote: Video just dropped on Painted Dog, saying they believe it is related to TB.





so I wanted to add that I have seen comments  (and heard) regarding the TB component and suspicions.

the first comment I will make is that its almost a foregone conclusion that over 90-95% of the lions in the region have been exposed to TB.  in most cases it simply lays dormant as the Lion's immune system maintains it suppressed.

TB ususally manifests in lions with compromised immune systems...what compromises them comes in many different forms....old age is very common factor.

in the case of S8, I have been told by some...that he apparently (I myself do not have first hand knowledge this happened) had some type of incident w a Buffalo and was seen with swolen face and at least one guide said he had lost canines.

the thought here is that the incident triggered an immune response but that it also allowed the TB to overtake his body.

I am no expert...i had a (maybe naive perspective) that TB takes a long time to hurt a lion and especially a strong one like S8.  

after the two Talamati Lionesses died of very similar rapid decline, I may be thinking differently.  and MAybe TB could really take on a very aggresiv eform and kill rather quickly.

i do know from a good source that both lionesses were tested post mortim and indeed tested positive for TB (but that isnt particularly a surprise) since like i mentioned, their estimates say 95% of these lions would test as such.....in their cases, what I have never had clarified is 'what triggered" if anything the TB response and the rapid decline.   both lionesses seemed quite healthy until very very near their deaths.

from what I have gathered in discussion from authorities,,,if/when S8 dies, they will likely do an extended test (abive and beyond their typical protocol) to identify toxins or other pathogens in his system to maybe identify a more definitive cause...if they do so, it would be because there has now been three lions from this same family that have died in a rapid rate.   maybe just maybe their deaths wont go in vain and they can get to the bottom of what could be at play...mitigate it for the others.

You hit directly on the problem. We had a pride of three females, and one male, all seemingly healthy and strong, and this is now the third one of those who out of the blue has fallen deathly ill. Clearly there is something happening, especially when you consider the lone remaining female was recently snared. I also believe, as you stated, that if you were to test every wild lion in Kruger/Sabi Sands, the vast majority of them would test positive for TB, however, and I personally know this for a fact, testing positive does not in any way mean you will die from the disease, or even get sick, it simply shows that you have been exposed to it. Once you test positive, you will continue to test positive forever, even if treated.

I don't believe you, @criollo2mil, are questioning the reserve's honesty or sincerity, as I know you have a really good relationship with most of them, but I have seen others questioning these things, mostly on other sites. Personally, I trust in the reserves, I believe that they at least believe what they are telling us, at the time they are telling us something. I don't think they would ever intentionally mislead us, or tell us something that is blatantly false. If they say or post something that seems off, or appears false, I may question it, but will still believe that it was not done maliciously, until I see evidence to the contrary. If we can't trust the eyes on the ground, then who are we going to trust? They may perhaps sugar coat things on occasion, as they believe it may be best to soften certain things, and I understand that, but I don't think they will knowingly lie to us. I will continue to hope for things to take a positive turn for S8, until we get to the point that they no longer can, and as well, I will continue to hope that the reserves will do what they can to identify what has happened, and believe that they will be honest in telling us what they believe the root cause is.
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United States T_Ferguson Offline
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Now they are saying TB.  Sad





Apologies if this isn't sourced properly.  I think all parties are given credit here.
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United States T_Ferguson Offline
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In the video he explains that TB can sometimes go that quickly if kicked into gear by something like a Buffalo attack.
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Ttimemarti Offline
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(11-07-2023, 10:42 PM)T_Ferguson Wrote: In the video he explains that TB can sometimes go that quickly if kicked into gear by something like a Buffalo attack.

Just like blondie he was fine then the nwaswitshaka males attacked him and that was his downfall
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Ttimemarti Offline
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(11-07-2023, 10:36 PM)T_Ferguson Wrote: Now they are saying TB.  Sad





Apologies if this isn't sourced properly.  I think all parties are given credit here.

Cedric is a legend! Sad that S8 has TB
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Tr1x24 Offline
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( This post was last modified: 11-07-2023, 11:14 PM by Tr1x24 )

(11-07-2023, 10:36 PM)T_Ferguson Wrote: Now they are saying TB.  Sad

Interesting explanation.

Most lions have TB or similar virus/bacteria disease, some show signs and live with it, others dont show signs, but that doesnt mean they will never be "activated".

Point that something triggers TB is very interesting.

If we remember all famous lions with TB, or that "black spot" disease, like Hip Scar, Sizanani, Nsuku etc., their path to demise all started with injuries they sustained, who turned into disease.

When body is injured or hurt, immune system strenght falls, which leaves TB to be more dangerous.

Not sure if that happrned to S8, as this happened very quickly.

When was the last sighting of S8 before this? Would be interesting to see how much time passed between his last healthy sighting and this.
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Tr1x24 Offline
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( This post was last modified: 11-07-2023, 11:03 PM by Tr1x24 )

(11-07-2023, 10:45 PM)Ttimemarti Wrote: Just like blondie he was fine then the nwaswitshaka males attacked him and that was his downfall

Blondie had limping and weight problems since early 2019.
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United States afortich Offline
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King S8/Imbali still battling. 




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Germany BA0701 Online
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(11-07-2023, 10:59 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:
(11-07-2023, 10:45 PM)Ttimemarti Wrote: Just like blondie he was fine then the nwaswitshaka males attacked him and that was his downfall

Blondie had limping and weight problems since early 2019.

Since we know that TB causes sharp, very painful, protrusions to develop on the bones, causing some animals to develop limps, and otherwise becoming less mobile. Blondie may well have been battling this dreaded disease for quite some time.
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