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Lions of Sabi Sands
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The Ximhungwe pride has been in that spot long before Gingerellas parents were even born. The Ximhungwe lioness specifically has been roaming around there before Gingerella even left her pride. Its rather obvious she is the one continuing the prides lineage. While Gingerella is no longer a Othawa. The pride no longer accepts her. She is just a stray lioness that is lucky to be allowed to join.
A pride is not comparable with coalitions at all in that aspect. All male lions start as a nobody. Not part of any group aside perhaps some brothers and nephews that decided to join them. They fall apart, form new groups, but typically not last longer than roughly a decade at best. As such they are defined not by lineage, but by the individuals that make them up. When we hear Birmingham Boys. We think of Nhenha, Tinyo and the others. Not Nym or whatever coalition had that name years ago. Its also actually Nym that has seniority here. Nhenha may be older, but he only arrived in the area proper a few months ago while Nym has been roaming there for years. Its thus safe to say Nhenha moved in with Nym. 
Inb4 the lodges in the west name them after some random rock formation north of the sand river
@Potato Ximhungwe female IS Ximhungwe pride, Gingerella is Othawas breakaway/outcast, Ximhungwe definitely has "stronger" claim here.
If for example Ximhungwe linked with last Tsalala female, or last Southern Pride female, then i agree, they cant be called 1 of those names, as both last females of their prides linked. But again, we need to see if these 2 will eventually form a pride together yet. If Ximhungwe female thru blood doesnt leave any legacy before she dies, then yes, Ximhungwe name should be ditched and Gingerella and her offspring will be called Othawa breakaways or something. For male coalitions is normal to give them different name when 2 or more males link together, or name coalition with brothers different name, because they have no connections with their natal pride anymore. Male coalitions are not named in the name of their natal pride, we just call them by the name of their natal pride, because they where not named by reserves. Birmingham males dont have officiall name, Mbiri, Ross, Avocas, Plains Camp males etc. where not named like other coalitions like Mapogos (Spartas) , Majingilanes (some pride from Kruger) , Matimbas (Birminghams) , Tumbelas (Nharhus), Ndhzengas (N'waswitshakas), Tintswalos (Mbiris) etc etc. We just call them like that because they dont have other name.  (05-16-2022, 11:32 PM)sik94 Wrote: she's a nomad without an established pride at this point. The Ximungwe pride is an already established pride, the Ximungwe female will be the one accepting a nomadic lionessPride is a group of individuals, so she is not even a pride anymore. She is same as Othawa breakaway just lone lionesses wandering around. Also that she is in the same arena since her daughter dissapeared (which is not too long anyway) doesn't mean she is territorial. Also again, both females are independent, there was no any tensions between them so it is not like Othawa female tryed to join Ximunghwe famale and Ximunghwe end up tolerating Othawa female, but clearly they are joining up because they both wants that. (05-16-2022, 11:59 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: The Ximhungwe pride has been in that spot long before Gingerellas parents were even bornXimunghwe pride does not has established territory bassicly since 2014 and Ximunghwe female is in the current spot only since her daughter dissapeared, so since few months. Moreover historicaly it is not Ximunghwe pride territory either, but Othawa so you're very mistaken there. (05-16-2022, 11:59 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: She is just a stray lioness that is lucky to be allowed to join. She is just as stray as Ximunghwe female. She is not lucky to be aceppted as she is fully capable to feed for herself and definitelly I do not think "is allowed to join" is appropriate description of dynamic between those two females. (05-16-2022, 11:59 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: A pride is not comparable with coalitions at all in that aspect. All male lions start as a nobody. Not part of any group aside perhaps some brothers and nephews that decided to join them. They fall apart, form new groups, but typically not last longer than roughly a decade at best. As such they are defined not by lineage, but by the individuals that make them up.The females works in this asspect the same as males with the difference it is way more rare with the females, that they are left by themselfs and need to seek buddys outside of their lineage as in this case when those two females are just by themselfs and it makes sense to join forces for better protection and to make hunting easier so bassicly for the very same reason males for a coalitions. (05-16-2022, 11:59 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Its also actually Nym that has seniority here. Nhenha may be older, but he only arrived in the area proper a few months ago while Nym has been roaming there for years. Its thus safe to say Nhenha moved in with Nym. Anyway whether we would refer to this coalition as just "Nkuchuma males" or "Birmingham males" it would be equally wrong. They are Nkuchuma male and Birmingham male. Similarly wrong would be calling Othawa breakaway female as Ximinghwe female just because she joined up with Ximunghwe female.
Ok this is getting spammy.
This discussion is utterly pointless because in the end neither of us here will decide how will Othawa breakaway and Ximhungwe be called. So move on. (05-17-2022, 12:12 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote: For male coalitions is normal to give them different name when 2 or more males link together, or name coalition with brothers different name, because they have no connections with their natal pride anymore.No we name them that way because it is easier to give them single name insteed of each time naming the pride they came from (so Mongowane is easier than all the time calling them "Birmingham and Torchwood male) and does not ditch their origins (that is why they get new separate name "Mongowane" insteed of calling them both "Birmingham males" or "Torchwood males" because for whatever reason we think one male in the coalition is more important than the other. (05-17-2022, 12:12 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote: Ximhungwe female IS Ximhungwe pride, Gingerella is Othawas breakaway/outcast, Ximhungwe definitely has "stronger" claim here.It doesn't make any sense to me. As I understand you want this potential newly formed group call Ximunghwe pride just because: 1. Othawa pride is still existing pride elesewhere so it doesn't make sense to take name of the pride from Othawa breakaway and therefore we HAVE TO take name from Ximunghwe female exept that we do not have to take name from either of those. As this is totally new group composed of in equal numbers Othawa breakaway and Ximunghwe female we can not speak about one of those being incorporated into the other, but about forming somethink new and should be given new separate name. 2. Ximunghwe pride has long legacy and it would be pity if the name of the pride disappear which doesn't make sense to me because: a) name change would not infuence pride's legacy. Everyone would be still fully aware of what is this pride composed of similarly as it is with a coalitions b) the end of somethink doesn't need to be bad and in that case I deffinitelly wouldn't say it is somethink bad, but on the contrary: I think it would be bautifful story if two females would join up, form a new pride in the region and flourish. (05-17-2022, 12:12 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote: But again, we need to see if these 2 will eventually form a pride together yet. If Ximhungwe female thru blood doesnt leave any legacy before she dies, then yes, Ximhungwe name should be ditched and Gingerella and her offspring will be called Othawa breakaways or something.Changing pride's name all over would be even the worst option of all just talked through there. If those two form a pride they should just get a name insteed of constantly counting how many offspring of either of those two females are part of the pride at the moment, so if in dirrect moment it is more of Ximinghwe pride or if it more of Othawa breakaway, calling pride Ximunghwe and then after some of Ximunghwe's female cubs dies then renaming it (so at the moment it would be more of Othawa breakaway than Ximunghwe pride), and then after some of young Othawa female's cubs dies renaming it again (so it would be again more of Ximinghwe pride than Othawa breakaway pride). 
Ehrm, Ximhungwe and Gingerella are not two equal lionesses.
The first has years of seniority that has grown up and lived in that region her whole life. She has already nearly raised one cub there and will very likely be the most dominant lioness in the new pride for years. Gingerella is barely no longer a sub adult anymore. If those two would form a pride. She would likely just follow Ximhungwe in the same manner she would have followed her mother had she not been evicted. Ultimately, this is going to be a continuation of the Ximhungwe pride. Even if its genetically only half of that. But then again, genetically each pride is radically different from their grandmothers.  (05-17-2022, 12:16 AM)Potato Wrote:(05-16-2022, 11:32 PM)sik94 Wrote: she's a nomad without an established pride at this point. The Ximungwe pride is an already established pride, the Ximungwe female will be the one accepting a nomadic lionessPride is a group of individuals, so she is not even a pride anymore. She is same as Othawa breakaway just lone lionesses wandering around. Also that she is in the same arena since her daughter dissapeared (which is not too long anyway) doesn't mean she is territorial. Alright. If pride is down to last female, who moves around alone, it is usual to call ther say Tsalala female, but Tsalala pride is still valid, it does not matter it is a pride of one, imho. Let's look at Southern pride - by your POV she should called Southern female, but she has two female offspring growing up nicely, that are likely to stay with her if nothing happens to them and then what you woud want to call that trio (+ any subsequent cubs in that pride)? It would be a Southern pridem anythign else would be a nonsense. Pride is name is still carried by the last individual, as long as it is a female. It is effectively an individual and the lifestyle a behaviour is somewhat more similar to a leopard's female one than a pride of lion's one but still. I could even see Ximhungwe name lasting even without genetic link to the last female - say Gingerella joins her, Ximhungwe has cubs, Gingerella eventually has its progeny as well and somewhere along the journey, Ximhungwe and he progeny is outlived by Gingerella and her progeny functioning as a rather small but successful pride. I can see the Ximhungwe names sticking to them as they lived together with the Ximhungwe progeny as one tribe for year possibly in that scenario. However, it seems premature, till we see the two lioness together taking care of cubs of one of them, nothing is certain and even then there might some twists. Not long ago we had 2 Tsalalas and 2 Ximhugnwes and quite quickly those went down to 2 total. The Ximhungwe-Gingerella union might not happen also for simply not both being around/alive. (05-17-2022, 12:12 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote: Birmingham males dont have officiall name, Mbiri, Ross, Avocas, Plains Camp males etc. where not named like other coalitions like Mapogos (Spartas) , Majingilanes (some pride from Kruger) , Matimbas (Birminghams) , Tumbelas (Nharhus), Ndhzengas (N'waswitshakas), Tintswalos (Mbiris) etc etc. With the exception of Mala Mala, they rename everything for some reason :) If it ever wonders on the property ofc. 
To everyon here, I think we should stop duscussing about the naming of this potential pride between the last Ximungwe and Gingerella. We are not even sure if these 2 will permanently stay together, as sometimes they are seen together and sometimes they are not. And even if they do stay together, it is useless to discuss about what name will this pride have, wether Ximungwe or Othawa or any other name whatsoever. The rangers at Singita and neighboring reserve where these 2 lionesses usually roam will likely come up with an official name for the pride. We dont get to decide what this pride will be named, so I beg you guys to please stop discussing about this, or at the very least, move the discussion to another thread as this one is wayyyy to long with nearly 700 pages.
 (05-16-2022, 12:14 AM)RookiePundit Wrote:(05-15-2022, 07:20 PM)Slayerd Wrote:(05-15-2022, 06:48 PM)RookiePundit Wrote: Aren't Othawa and Ximhungwe prides related going few generatioins back? Or am I mistaken? The Legacy of the Tsalala Pride - Londolozi Blog It is quite possible that they are related based on proximity. Many of the major prides in the Sabi Sands today are breakaways and we know of many more in Timbavati and Manyeleti as well as Kruger. The breakaways usually stay fairly close to their original pride. If they are related, the break happened before the beginning of this century. The Ximungwhes (Castletons) have existed since at least 1998 because that's when the Tsalalas broke away from them. I remember seeing Mala Mala reports that were older than 1998 mentioning the Othawas, so they existed then as well. I agree wholeheardtedly with Mdz123 that we should let the reserves attempt to sort out the name of the potential new pride. I doubt they will come to a consensus (see Ximungwhes/Castleton, Gowries/B Boys, Tsalala/Marthly, Satan/Mr. T/Mohawk/Shaka, etc.), but that's even more reason we shouldn't argue about it amongst ourselves. It's too bad that the Tintswalo Coalition is the exception and not the rule. Hopefully the moderators will reconsider giving the prides their own thread. The naming debate would have fit perfectly in the Ximungwhe or Othawa Pride thread. Or maybe a thread called "Miscellaneous Lion Topics" for any discussion that starts to feel like it's spamming the main thread. (05-17-2022, 03:49 PM)DE_66 Wrote:(05-16-2022, 12:14 AM)RookiePundit Wrote:(05-15-2022, 07:20 PM)Slayerd Wrote:(05-15-2022, 06:48 PM)RookiePundit Wrote: Aren't Othawa and Ximhungwe prides related going few generatioins back? Or am I mistaken? Very well said, DE66. Speaking of the origins of Tsalala pride, there was a map of Sabi Sands with all lion prides and male coalitions that was posted to this thread a long time ago, this map was from the West Street/Split Rock era so we can get an insight into lion dynamics back then. Does anyone still have this map? I dont remember who posted the map.  (05-17-2022, 12:51 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote: Ok this is getting spammy. Agreed, becoming a bit long in the tooth. When I asked the question, I was only wondering what the historical context of such a pairing is, as I find these happening very interesting. As I can see, it is rather unclear. |
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