There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(10-29-2024, 04:27 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Earlier they were overrated and praised through the roof. Now we are clearly seeing the limits of the PCmales, people are probably jumping to the other extreme of neglectfull males deliberatly endangering their own cubs.
In reality they are just a duo of two males given access to way to much prides than they can handle. So they abandoned some and obviously cannot be everywhere they are needed. Lions also arent given an How to lion for lions guide. So they have their flaws that they need to work on. But so do the other coalitions.
Though so far they are only indirectly responsable for the cubs that died. Sure if they only had the Mangheni pride to look over their cubs would be safe. But that would likely have resulted in problems elsewhere and the death of cubs.
Most people on youtube, insta and even twitter, tend to see lion dynamics quite different ( some, not all of them), more like a reality show than nature, so there will always be people hating on animals or saying some bizarre things, it happends probably because they see these animals as characters in a history
You got the "bad guys" like, NkuhumaB, PCM, Mbiris etc
You got the "good guys" like Tumbela, BDM etc.. ( mostly the "underdogs")
I even saw as far as people blaming PCM for chasing Tumbela away and being in a kill with the Mangheni pride ( that one time in summer I dont remember exactly where)
But than PCM are wrong again for not being with the Manghenis ( basicly they are in the wrong in some people visions just becuas they are who they are)
And what doesnt help is what some accounts and yt channels do, wich is making people almost choosing a side or label lions in a bad/good way
Till this day I dont see the Saba Bora being refered as Saba Bora but instead " bob junior killers", or Mbiris as " canibals", Northen BDM are this and that becuase poor Mapoza..... you get what Im saying
Obviously when people already see these animals as " characters" and you have others spreading a message that " look at what these lions are doing/did to your favourite lion" it will only add wood to the fire
Concluding- I Think we shouldn´t take seriously what many say about these lions as in terms of good and bad, its different prespectives that originate different opinions, and its really hard to see where one comes from if you are looking at something from a completly different angle
People opinions arent going to change a bit these beatiful animals lives thankfully, so it´s just one of those cases " smile and wave boys, just smile and wave"
I personally like to see things as much rationally as I can, and if possible trying to find a justification for such act/s between these beatiful animals
Do I have my favourties... lets be real everyone has
would I be sad if something happend to them... of course
would I blame/hate the ones who did it to them... thats stupid, they´re animals all with the same goal wich is survive and pass their genes, unless you´re Kambulas than its just survive ( take it as a joke )
Has anyone considered that the PCM are still on the younger side!! I would assume their drive to Mate is high. Would explain their "transport" ability. Would also explain them moving in to mate then leaving! Look SS has 3 pairs of males with territories that are huge. I blame all these other males for NOT stepping up to the plate and claiming a pride and territory. If no other males claim a pride then how can you blame the PCMs for expanding their territory. At least the Ndhzengas and Gijimas stand up for what is theirs - these other lions want to chase buffalo, or are hurt and lost confidence, or are too young or too old. PCM are "Kings" they take whats given to them!!! Thats why they are called king of beast.
10-30-2024, 05:41 AM( This post was last modified: 10-30-2024, 05:43 AM by sik94 )
(10-29-2024, 10:35 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: It is fair to judge them on how their decisions impact their lives or attempt to puzzle together what drove an animal to such choices.
True but then you have to judge them from the pov of an instinct driven creature that probably isn't self-aware or concious of what's going on. You're judging them from a very human-centric view. Humans have a very different life cycle, we're intelligent beings and it's obvious to us that the parents have a moral duty to raise their kids. Lions do not have this level of intelligence nor do they have the moral judgment to be able to make that differention, it's unfair to judge a fish's ability to climb a tree.
(10-29-2024, 10:35 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Neglect and deliberately are not human terms, they are just descriptive terms of behaviour in general. Otherwise one would have to argue that lions don't hunt, sleep or eat.
Terms like neglect or doing something deliberately assign intent and imply a level of moral judgment that lions are not capable of. Being neglectful usually assumes that you knowingly refused to act, I highly doubt a lion has the ability to make that kind of a judgment call. Saying they are deliberately endangering their cubs assumes that they know the consequences of their actions, all they can really do is respond to the roars of intruding males when they hear them and all dominant males do that including PCMs.
(10-29-2024, 10:35 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: For example, a lioness that constantly disrupts hunts is clearly doing something that negatively impacts the pride she is in. It is fair to say she is a bad huntress.
That analogy is a false equivalent. If a lioness keeps ruining and disrupting hunts, that would make her a bad huntress, I absolutely agree with that. But, if you go further to suggest that she is 'deliberately' ruining hunts or that she is being 'neglctful' to her cubs by KNOWINGLY ruining her hunts despite being concious of the fact that it means the cubs won't get to eat that night, then I have an issue with that.
(10-29-2024, 10:35 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: It is fair to judge them on how their decisions impact their lives or attempt to puzzle together what drove an animal to such choices.
True but then you have to judge them from the pov of an instinct driven creature that probably isn't self-aware or concious of what's going on. You're judging them from a very human-centric view. Humans have a very different life cycle, we're intelligent beings and it's obvious to us that the parents have a moral duty to raise their kids. Lions do not have this level of intelligence nor do they have the moral judgment to be able to make that differention, it's unfair to judge a fish's ability to climb a tree..
Isnt that what you are doing though. Judging an animal for its ability to act like a human. Just becouse they have vastly different morals or make vastly different decissions does not nessasary mean they are mindless.
And obviously lions concider it amoral to kill cubs. Or they wouldnt get that angry protecting them.
Quote:Terms like neglect or doing something deliberately assign intent and imply a level of moral judgment that lions are not capable of. Being neglectful usually assumes that you knowingly refused to act, I highly doubt a lion has the ability to make that kind of a judgment call. Saying they are deliberately endangering their cubs assumes that they know the consequences of their actions, all they can really do is respond to the roars of intruding males when they hear them and all dominant males do that including PCMs.
Neglect just means that you are not doing something. Be it accidentally or deliberatly.
Why wouldnt a lioness understand that walking away from a litter means death to the cubs. If they dont understand that, then how would they know to stick with them.
Quote:That analogy is a false equivalent. If a lioness keeps ruining and disrupting hunts, that would make her a bad huntress, I absolutely agree with that. But, if you go further to suggest that she is 'deliberately' ruining hunts or that she is being 'neglctful' to her cubs by KNOWINGLY ruining her hunts despite being concious of the fact that it means the cubs won't get to eat that night, then I have an issue with that
A young sub knows her skills are inadequate when she starts joining hunts, yet she still does so. Becouse she needs to learn. You cant just refuse to see intend, when if you look into precisely that, the reasons become apparent.
Besides, the bystander effect has been pretty well documented in animals. Its pretty common in social animals that during a hunt, only few animals actually hunt while the rest just pretends to do so to be first there to eat.
Sabi outside of Gijima and N'Was territory is just such a mess. I am crushed if this news is true about poor Tsalala. It was try #1. Maybe Try #2 will be better. Still no news on the Othawa girls either. That is starting to concern me a bit as well especially with all the fighting between Mangheni, Ximungs, and Kambula 2 prides.
Yeah it's sad.. What stings me even more is that in the beginning period of the cubs the PCM's did not visit her (or at least we did not see it) but last couple of weeks we saw multiple visits. So they looked more protected. Or at least I felt that way about the situation. And then they die one by one quickly after each other. Not insinuating here at all by the way that this is due PCM's; just pointing out the sad sequence of highs and lows.
(10-30-2024, 11:55 PM)MrLoesoe Wrote: Yeah it's sad.. What stings me even more is that in the beginning period of the cubs the PCM's did not visit her (or at least we did not see it) but last couple of weeks we saw multiple visits. So they looked more protected. Or at least I felt that way about the situation. And then they die one by one quickly after each other. Not insinuating here at all by the way that this is due PCM's; just pointing out the sad sequence of highs and lows.
I think it's more the age. The cubs got to that age where they are out and about and exploring and not really heeding warnings of danger as much. Sabi has a large Hyena problem as well, so who really knows. Tsalala has done so well by living like a Leopard for a couple of years. She can't do that with cubs.
