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(12-09-2020, 01:18 AM)sundarbans Wrote: There is always a lot of mention of the Avoca/Giraffe males in these threads. And they seem to have been a successful coalition with many of their offspring going on to breed successfully. Can anyone give me more details about the coalition? How many were they? When and where did they reign? And why are they called "Avoca/Giraffe"? Are any of them alive?
The Giraffe pride used to be a big pride with 3 bigger older males and 2 Sub males. The pride eventually split up with 4 lionesses and 9 cubs that formed the Avoca pride. They mainly moved around 5 properties in the south west of Timbavati. The Wiggil property, Klaserie Reserve and Thorneybush reserve was still fenced out at the time. Around 2006 the older males were not there anymore and 3 new males took over the 2 prides. They were the Original 3 Giraffe pride Males.
Klaserie Reserve that was fenced had the 2 Ross males with the Ross pride. Hunting took place in both reserves at the time and some point 1 Giraffe male disappeared or moved off from the other two males. The Two Ross Males were hunted and the fence between the reserves were dropped just after that time. The Ross pride were without males. The Giraffe males saw the gap and added the Ross pride to their territory. The commercial lodge in the area started naming them the Ross males and others in the area followed suit. Hence my point that these males were the Giraffe males and not the Ross males. The Giraffe males fathered the current males called the Ross Males that is currently moving around Ngala, Orpen, Northern Maneyleti and south west Timbavati. The same Giraffe Males fathered the Rockfig Male that was around Rockfig Lodge in Timbavati and moved later into Kruger Park and was seen around Bobbejaankrans, Mudzanzeni and Talamati area. They also father some other males with Avoca pride that disappeared around ages 2 and 3. The Giraffe Males also had 7 Sub males with the Giraffe pride. The 2 older males from the seven become the New Avoca Males. 2 Males went north and I did not see them again. The other 3 Males moved south and occasionally with the 2 Avoca males. That is where the people started talking about the Avoca/Giraffe coalition.
The second last offspring of the old Giraffe Male was the Young Giraffe male that moved into Thornybush through a hole that was made in the fence a few weeks before the fence got removed. He was not brothers of the same age than the others. That is the male that took over the Blackdam pride.
The 2 Avoca Males fathered 5 young Males in the Avoca pride of which 2 disappeared and the other 3 moved into Manyeleti and Sabi Sands.
Note: Those two 2 males from the Avoca pride disappeared, In fact, Are the 2 S.Avoca males... And the Giraffe males (are the old Ross males) Ziggi Hugo used to know them as the old Giraffe males. They have started to being known as the old Ross males when they have took-over the Ross pride in Klaserie
Thank you for the detailed info. If I understand correctly, the Avoca/Giraffe coalition consisted of three separate coalitions with the first coalition being the two males born in the Giraffe pride in 2007 who became known as the Avoca males, the second coalition being the four males born in the Giraffe pride in 2009 and the third being the lone Giraffe male born in 2009.
In your subsequent posts about the four 2009 Giraffe males, you mentioned a lion named Brutus. Which lion is that?
Brutus was born in 2007, Brutus and his brother took-over the Avoca pride in 2013 and sired the 5 Avoca males and some lionesses which still are in the Avoca pride.
When they took-over the Avoca pride, the Avoca/Giraffe coalition was being to known in the Timbavati and Manyeleti.
The Avoca/Giraffe coalition consisted in six males.
There was 1 youngest male who don't formed part of the coalition. That youngest male was born in 2011 went into Thornybush, Pushing out the Blackdam male and became dominant of the Black dam pride since then.
Unfortunately, The Giraffe male (Born in 2011) is missing since months ago, He went into a private property known as Sandringham dam where existed cases of poaching.
Okay so the 7th male was a lone male. But I am still a little confused about the first 6. Did they operate like one large coalition (such as the Majingilanes or the Birminghams) or were they two distinct coalitions like the Northern Matimbas and the Southern Matimbas?
12-11-2020, 11:39 PM( This post was last modified: 12-12-2020, 12:03 AM by Tr1x24 )
(12-11-2020, 11:22 PM)sundarbans Wrote: Okay so the 7th male was a lone male. But I am still a little confused about the first 6. Did they operate like one large coalition (such as the Majingilanes or the Birminghams) or were they two distinct coalitions like the Northern Matimbas and the Southern Matimbas?
They never permanently split like Matimbas as far as I know, but they where divided between prides and territories like any big coalition of 5 or more.. So sighting of them 6 and later 5 together was very rare..
I dont know how they operated in early years since they reunite, but since they start being seen in northern Manyeleti and around Orpen area in 2017, it was reported that 4 males are mostly together while 1 spent most time with Red Road Pride (1 male, 6th member went missing in Ngala in 2017).
Later on in 2018 when they completely abandon Ngala and Birmingham prides, 2 males moved deeper into central Manyeleti and hanging with Nharu and Mbiris while other 3 where around Orpen Area in the north, at that time 2 Orpen males shows up in that area..
Later on in 2018, 1 male from the north joined 2 ones in central Manyeleti (its unknown what happened to other 2 in the north, but Orpen males took that area completely by now) and where in bad condition and trailing Nharu pride until their demise..
So thats a bit of what we know of dynamics between them..
(12-11-2020, 11:22 PM)sundarbans Wrote: Okay so the 7th male was a lone male. But I am still a little confused about the first 6. Did they operate like one large coalition (such as the Majingilanes or the Birminghams) or were they two distinct coalitions like the Northern Matimbas and the Southern Matimbas?
They never permanently split like Matimbas as far as I know, but they where divided between prides and territories like any big coalition of 5 or more.. So sighting of them 6 and later 5 together was very rare..
I dont know how they operated in early years since they reunite, but since they start being seen in northern Manyeleti and around Orpen area in 2017, it was reported that 4 males are mostly together while 1 spent most time with Red Road Pride (1 male, 6th member went missing in Ngala in 2017).
Later on in 2018 when they completely abandon Ngala and Birmingham prides, 2 males moved deeper into central Manyeleti and hanging with Nharu and Mbiris while other 3 where around Orpen Area in the north, at that time 2 Orpen males shows up in that area..
Later on in 2018, 1 male from the north joined 2 ones in central Manyeleti (its unknown what happened to other 2 in the north, but Orpen males took that area completely by now) and where in bad condition and trailing Nharu pride until their demise..
So thats a bit of what we know of dynamics between them..
In 2013 and 2014 they were roaming together around Ngala
(12-11-2020, 08:18 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: Focus & Intent...
One of the 2 Skorro males on the trot, chasing after the Birmingham pride at Ngala Private Game Reserve
Photo credit: Dylan Davies
Timbavati
August 2013
Info Credits: Lions of Timbavati (FB)
*This image is copyright of its original author
Thats Skorro on the picture, that means that he had an brother and that they where born in Skorro pride afterall.. Also as we taught, they prob where briefly dominant over Birmingham pride around 2014, maybe his brother got killed by Avoca/Giraffes??
Who would be dominant males of Skorro pride around 2009 when they where prob born?
Old Birmingham males or old Skybeds right?
Old Birminghams would male sense, that would explain similarity in looks between Bboys and young Skorro and now his sons Mbiris and Nharus..
But also on this picture Skorro looks like a Skybeds a bit..
Very interesting info, i always taught that Skorro was unknown male who showed up with Sizanani in 2015, but it seems that he has a lot of history before in that area..
Watching closely, In my personal opinion, The Red road male has some features appearance with this Skorro male, As per Ngala rangers, When the RRM was born the Skorro males were still dominant over the Birmingham pride.
(12-12-2020, 02:52 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote: Apperantlly, brother of Skorro was killed by Matimba males.. By "Lions of Timbavati" FB page..
So both Skorro's and Sizanani's brothers where killed by Matimbas..
Exactly, Some friends have asked to Timbavati page and said that was confirmed by both, Manyeleti and Ngala rangers a few years ago.
Unfortunately, Doesn't are much sightings of the Giraffe males with the Birmingham pride in 2013. At least, We haven't find
12-12-2020, 12:24 PM( This post was last modified: 12-12-2020, 12:29 PM by Tr1x24 )
(12-12-2020, 02:58 AM)TinoArmando Wrote: Exactly, Some friends have asked to Timbavati page and said that was confirmed by both, Manyeleti and Ngala rangers a few years ago.
Unfortunately, Doesn't are much sightings of the Giraffe males with the Birmingham pride in 2013. At least, We haven't find
Because Giraffe males where still nomads in 2013 in Timbavati/Klaserie,only later in late 2013,or in early to mid 2014 they joined 2 Avoca males who controled Avoca pride..
Here is a photo of 4 young Giraffe males in Klaserie in early 2013, they are barely over 3 yrs old and still were with a Giraffe pride at that time, they had an clash with Ross Pride and shortly after that they became nomadic:
Photo Credits : Chole Cooper
*This image is copyright of its original author
So Avoca/Giraffes certaintly where not in control of Birmingham pride until 2015.
Here is a photo of them in Ngala in September 2015,and is stated that they are starting to push deeper and further east into Ngala, which fits perfectly, as they sire cubs in Birmingham pride around mid 2016 and overthrone Matimbas further east in Ngala/Orpens area:
12-12-2020, 03:40 PM( This post was last modified: 12-12-2020, 04:08 PM by Potato )
(12-12-2020, 12:24 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:
(12-12-2020, 02:58 AM)TinoArmando Wrote: Exactly, Some friends have asked to Timbavati page and said that was confirmed by both, Manyeleti and Ngala rangers a few years ago.
Unfortunately, Doesn't are much sightings of the Giraffe males with the Birmingham pride in 2013. At least, We haven't find
Because Giraffe males where still nomads in 2013 in Timbavati/Klaserie,only later in late 2013,or in early to mid 2014 they joined 2 Avoca males who controled Avoca pride..
Here is a photo of 4 young Giraffe males in Klaserie in early 2013, they are barely over 3 yrs old and still were with a Giraffe pride at that time, they had an clash with Ross Pride and shortly after that they became nomadic:
Photo Credits : Chole Cooper
*This image is copyright of its original author
So Avoca/Giraffes certaintly where not in control of Birmingham pride until 2015.
Here is a photo of them in Ngala in September 2015,and is stated that they are starting to push deeper and further east into Ngala, which fits perfectly, as they sire cubs in Birmingham pride around mid 2016 and overthrone Matimbas further east in Ngala/Orpens area:
Photo Credits: Johan Adolf Smalman
*This image is copyright of its original author
Yup, talk was about Skorro and Old Avocas, not a younger Giraffe males as potential RR male fathers.
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(12-12-2020, 03:42 PM)Potato Wrote: Nharhu pride with RR male
Good to see Nharu pride doing well since encounter with Orpen males, yes 1 female and 5 cubs are missing, but they might be somewhere around, even without these 5, 12 cubs is still very good number..
Only potential threat for now is 4 Mbiris, if they turn south, i hope they dont, it would be great to see offspring of such a fine specimen as RRM is to reach adulthood..
(12-12-2020, 03:42 PM)Potato Wrote: Nharhu pride with RR male
Good to see Nharu pride doing well since encounter with Orpen males, yes 1 female and 5 cubs are missing, but they might be somewhere around, even without these 5, 12 cubs is still very good number..
Only potential threat for now is 4 Mbiris, if they turn south, i hope they dont, it would be great to see offspring of such a fine specimen as RRM is to reach adulthood..
Exactly. 12 cubs is still a good number. I hope some of those 12 cubs will be males
(12-12-2020, 02:12 AM)TinoArmando Wrote: I have find some photos of the two older Giraffe males (Brutus and brother) on Ngala in April 2013. I will shared them now!
Unfortunately, I didn't find of them with lionesses
Can you post them? Also do you maybe have photos of Skorro's brother?
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(12-12-2020, 02:12 AM)TinoArmando Wrote: I have find some photos of the two older Giraffe males (Brutus and brother) on Ngala in April 2013. I will shared them now!
Unfortunately, I didn't find of them with lionesses
Can you post them? Also do you maybe have photos of Skorro's brother?
