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Lions and Tigers in India

United States GrizzlyClaws Offline
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#46
( This post was last modified: 04-24-2014, 05:59 AM by GrizzlyClaws )

It is absolutely incredible, the lone tiger did predate more on the rhino than the lone lion did predate on the cape buffalo.

Tiger was evolved as an ultimate solo predator.
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United States Pckts Offline
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#47

http://books.google.com/books?id=dbQ8AAA...an&f=false

Here is a great book on tigers in Chitwan. Most of the pages are available. Its called
Riding the Tiger
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
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#48
( This post was last modified: 04-24-2014, 05:58 AM by GuateGojira )

Here you can see that Chitwan NP have a good prey base both the large animals are comparatively few. Sunquist (1981) mentioned that gaurs live in parts not frequented by tigers. Take in count that at such a low population, it is very difficult for a tiger to found a gaur and much more easy to found a deer. So, by simple logic, the tiger will prey much more in chital and sambar than in gaur, in the case of Chitwan.

As far I know, there is no more wild buffalo in Chitwan, none of the scientific documents mention them, probably the page is quoting an old source when wild buffaloes lived through all the Terai arc.

Now, about the predation on rhino, the Chitwan tigers only kill young rhinos, at difference of those from Kaziranga. Probably they seek an easy prey although those from Kaziranga also have large prey base but still kill adult rhinos.

Someone in the old AVA forum posted a document of rhino deaths and only young specimens were killed by tigers. In this document, the oldest rhino killed by tigers was a specimen (no sex identified) of 3 years old (no horn) killed in November 21 of 2001.
 

(04-24-2014, 04:51 AM)'Pckts' Wrote: http://books.google.com/books?id=dbQ8AAA...an&f=false

Here is a great book on tigers in Chitwan. Most of the pages are available. Its called
Riding the Tiger

 
The book "Riding the Tiger" of 1999 is an encyclopedic document with scientific information about the tigers through all its range, not only Nepal. The document is fascinating and the first two chapters are BASIC in all my statements and investigations.

I found it complete in the page of 21 century tigers, but now the link is down and is so heavy that I can't download it to an email.

Any option for send it to you, or through a page?
 
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United States Pckts Offline
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#49

I am sure a young rhino is a Tigers definite first choice. Still a large animal and much less of a threat than a full grown rhino. I am amazed that Tigers target and kill full grown rhinos as much as they do. Even in the article about chitwan, they still mention that tigers specifically target the largest prey base available, they would leave the smaller deer and other animals alone for the most part and target the buck chital deer which are still 500lb plus animals. I think any tiger reserve that has tigers over 225kg needs a large prey base with large animals readily available. I wonder what the tiger predation on elephant calves and adults has been in Chitwan, I'm curious what prey tigers prefer and in what areas do they prefer them in. Like you said, Kaziranga has the same prey base as Chitwan but the tigers target rhinos, adult and youngsters much more frequintley over there. Maybe the fact that the Tiger densisty is so high that the males might feel like whomever can make the largest kill to share with possible female prospects as well as grow stronger than the rest,  will have the highest success rate in such a densely populated area. Which also seems like common sense to me as well.

I would love to see that book "21 century tigers" but I am not sure what the best way to receive it from you.
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
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In all habitats, tiger do search for the largest prey, they most, as only small prey don’t allow them to breed or to reach them full development. Is like people, in places with less food, people is many times malnourished and they height is small.
 
Most of studies about tiger food are biased toward small prey because they use only scats in the analyses. That is why we found average prey of c.60 kg in places like Chitwan or Nagarahole. However, if only principal prey is used, the figures are around 90-100 kg in both areas, again using only scats. The interesting thing is that c.95 kg is the weight of a male chital deer, which is the most common prey in both places (in fact, in ALL places in India), so it makes sense that tigers prey on animals at c.90-100 kg on average.
 
However, take in count that in Nagarahole, tigers search and hunt more Sambar and gaur despite its low density, which suggest that tigers like more a large prey that can feed them for several days without expending too much energy. That is why tigers prefer the larger prey when they can, but if they are searching prey in the field and the only that they found is chital, they will surely hunt them.
 
About the rhinos, there are no reports of tigers killing adult ones in Chitwan, as far I know. Your theory about why tigers do hunt adult rhinos in Kaziranga is plausible, after all, they can show to the females that they are the perfect dominant male for the area. Like Dr Karanth say, this make perfect evolutionary sense.
 
Out of topic, but still relevant, lion studies that show prey of over 200 kg like average use only kill sample, not scats. Even Schaller accept this, as the scats in the climate of Africa disappear much faster and then, it is impossible to use it. This is why is NOT correct, nor fair, to compare these lion studies that use kills with those of the tiger which use only scats. Besides, most of the hunts of the lions are in group (they hunt in group and they need to feed the entire group) and most of the lion habitats have both zebra and wildebeest, without mentioning all the large array of antelopes, including the large eland, while on the tiger side Sambar is the only animal that can surpass the 250 kg in most of the habitats (Nilgai, buffalo and gaur are extinct in most of the parks of India, or live in very low densities). In this case, it is obvious that lions will hunt larger prey, but this is NOT an advantage, it is simply “Ecology”. By the way, check that in any part of the documents about lions say that those “average” prey of 399 kg (for males) is taken for a single male, in fact it say that this kills were recorded also in lions groups. Again, a deep reading and interpretation of the documents is fundamental.
 
Let’s hope this reflection will help in future comparisons. If someone wants to compare lion with tiger prey selection, use scats with scats and kills with kills.
 
The page where I found the book “Riding the tiger” was “21 century tigers”, here is the link: http://www.21stcenturytiger.org/
 
Sadly, I think that they no longer provide this book by free, I download it in 2005. Probably when they changed the page, the link was broken and the archive lost.
 
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Canada Dr Panthera Offline
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#51

(04-21-2014, 11:16 PM)Pckts Wrote: That is quite a theory and no offense. Valmik is a actual historian and wildlife biologist, you are nothing more than a interested fan, no offense.
For you to say Valmiks book is "laugahable" is the only thing that is "laughable"
Valmiks theories are based off of years and years of first hand expierence, data, eye witness events, and years of studying. He offers up actual proof, data and events to back his theories.

What process is impossible in modern times?
I know you don't mean the foreign introduction of species?
Since numerous species all over the world have been from foreign introduction. Hence the term "invasive species"
This has been accomplished from the largest cats in the world (tigers in ranthambhore and Panna) to the wild packs of wolves introduced in yosemite all the way down to cichlids and snakeheads released in the canals of florida. It is not hard to introduce a foreign species as long as that species has something that it can sustain life, in fact, some foreign species flourish in completetly different places. So if that is what you were implying, that is obviously wrong.


Richardli-Alexander absolutely 100% brought over lions and tons of other invasive species. Persian Rulers are recorded for having foreign hunts of lions who were given to them as gifts from other rulers. It is extremely easy to transport big cats to different places. How do you think ALL the european and american circuses got their big cats? Every circus performing big cat is a descendent of a once wild Tiger or lion. In fact, many trainers speak about the effects of their cats after they just get off the boat. How lots of them get sea sick and are very lathargic for the first couple of days until they acclimate, etc.

Valmik Thapar is not a biologist he studied anthropology and he is a renowned activist, conservationist, and film maker but he is not a biologist and did not study biology in a university
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Canada Dr Panthera Offline
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#52

A conflict in Kuno between reintroduced Asiatic lions and transient tigers from Rajasthan or other areas from Madhya Pradesh is inevitable and will have tragic consequences to the preservation of both species especially the tiger.
Nature avoids duplication in apex predators except if resources are very rich or separation is present for example the Florida Everglades is a rich habitat where both the American crocodile and the American alligator occur, orcas and great white sharks share rich habitats in several areas , Jaguars and Pumas live together over most of the neotropics but Jaguars are larger and take larger prey, only in Mexico with abundant deer and peccaries population where the size of puma is close to the jaguar and the prey mass preferred is compatible .
Asiatic lions have known a great success in the last few decades more than all other lions and tigers, asiatic lions filled all available habitat and became so densely concentrated that some lions started to move away from the protected areas to conquer new grounds , the descendants of twelve lions from the 1800's number over five hundred now leading scientists like Sunquist to state that: " Lions living in tiger habitats, and utilizing tiger prey base, still occur at higher densities than tigers".
If lions are introduced to areas closer to tigers both animals will suffer in the following areas:
1- Direct Aggression
Encounters between the two animals are likely to be violent and aggressive, the solitary tiger is slightly larger ( males 180-200 kg with some even reaching the 240's, and females 100-160 kg compared with 160-190 kg for male Asiatic lions and 115-120 kg for lionesses ) the tiger may have a slight size advantage in one on one encounters, yet again most tigers in the proposed areas are transient young adults or past prime drifters and are likely to be killed by lions.
Meena and Jhala give Gir lion coalition numbers from one to four with a pair of males the most common, and pride lionesses from two to six lionesses with four or three lionesses being the most common, a pride of two lions and four lionesses will kill all tigers in the area, male lions will spend longer time with their lionesses when competition is fierce.
2- Cub Killing
Each species will attempt to kill the Cubs of the other, the lion pride system will protect the Cubs better than the solitary tigress
3- Kill Success Rate
Prides will kill more successfully and larger prey than single lions or tigers
4- Kill Retention
Prides will keep their kill from solitary tigers and may drive tigers off their kills 
The tiger stands to lose a lot and it's situation is already grim outside major national parks so I want to see the lions in another area away from the Tigers maybe towards suitable habitat in north Gujarat , Punjab, and even Pakistan ...Mr Modi though will not agree to that .
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United States Pckts Offline
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#53
( This post was last modified: 10-22-2015, 10:32 PM by Pckts )

(10-22-2015, 11:42 AM)Dr Panthera Wrote:
(04-21-2014, 11:16 PM)Pckts Wrote: That is quite a theory and no offense. Valmik is a actual historian and wildlife biologist, you are nothing more than a interested fan, no offense.
For you to say Valmiks book is "laugahable" is the only thing that is "laughable"
Valmiks theories are based off of years and years of first hand expierence, data, eye witness events, and years of studying. He offers up actual proof, data and events to back his theories.

What process is impossible in modern times?
I know you don't mean the foreign introduction of species?
Since numerous species all over the world have been from foreign introduction. Hence the term "invasive species"
This has been accomplished from the largest cats in the world (tigers in ranthambhore and Panna) to the wild packs of wolves introduced in yosemite all the way down to cichlids and snakeheads released in the canals of florida. It is not hard to introduce a foreign species as long as that species has something that it can sustain life, in fact, some foreign species flourish in completetly different places. So if that is what you were implying, that is obviously wrong.


Richardli-Alexander absolutely 100% brought over lions and tons of other invasive species. Persian Rulers are recorded for having foreign hunts of lions who were given to them as gifts from other rulers. It is extremely easy to transport big cats to different places. How do you think ALL the european and american circuses got their big cats? Every circus performing big cat is a descendent of a once wild Tiger or lion. In fact, many trainers speak about the effects of their cats after they just get off the boat. How lots of them get sea sick and are very lathargic for the first couple of days until they acclimate, etc.

Valmik Thapar is not a biologist he studied anthropology and he is a renowned activist, conservationist, and film maker but he is not a biologist and did not study biology in a university
Valmik spent decades following Tigers,
"His stewardship of the Ranthambore Foundation was recognised and he was appointed a member of the Tiger Task Force of 2005 by the Government of India. He criticised the majority Task Force view in his dissent note as excessively focussed on the prospects of co-existence of tigers and humans, which was, in his view not consistent with the objective of the panel."


He is a wildlife expert and conservationist.
He's spent years and years with tigers, first hand, eye witnessed more than most.
May be his major wasn't in biology but his lifes work has been.
As I'm sure you know, you will learn more about a subject once you immerse yourself in it, not by reading about it in a book. I will always takes someones first hand accounts over years and years of experience compared to a books account.
If that were the case we would still believe in 300kg Siberian tigers as the norm and the idea of them being the largest cat on earth which is still taught till this day.
So while he may not have studied Biology as a student, he certainly has obtained the first hand information of a biologist over the years and I have no problem calling him one now. But I see what you are saying on the matter.
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United States Pckts Offline
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#54
( This post was last modified: 10-22-2015, 10:31 PM by Pckts )

(10-22-2015, 12:18 PM)Dr Panthera Wrote: A conflict in Kuno between reintroduced Asiatic lions and transient tigers from Rajasthan or other areas from Madhya Pradesh is inevitable and will have tragic consequences to the preservation of both species especially the tiger.
Nature avoids duplication in apex predators except if resources are very rich or separation is present for example the Florida Everglades is a rich habitat where both the American crocodile and the American alligator occur, orcas and great white sharks share rich habitats in several areas , Jaguars and Pumas live together over most of the neotropics but Jaguars are larger and take larger prey, only in Mexico with abundant deer and peccaries population where the size of puma is close to the jaguar and the prey mass preferred is compatible .
Asiatic lions have known a great success in the last few decades more than all other lions and tigers, asiatic lions filled all available habitat and became so densely concentrated that some lions started to move away from the protected areas to conquer new grounds , the descendants of twelve lions from the 1800's number over five hundred now leading scientists like Sunquist to state that: " Lions living in tiger habitats, and utilizing tiger prey base, still occur at higher densities than tigers".
If lions are introduced to areas closer to tigers both animals will suffer in the following areas:
1- Direct Aggression
Encounters between the two animals are likely to be violent and aggressive, the solitary tiger is slightly larger ( males 180-200 kg with some even reaching the 240's, and females 100-160 kg compared with 160-190 kg for male Asiatic lions and 115-120 kg for lionesses ) the tiger may have a slight size advantage in one on one encounters, yet again most tigers in the proposed areas are transient young adults or past prime drifters and are likely to be killed by lions.
Meena and Jhala give Gir lion coalition numbers from one to four with a pair of males the most common, and pride lionesses from two to six lionesses with four or three lionesses being the most common, a pride of two lions and four lionesses will kill all tigers in the area, male lions will spend longer time with their lionesses when competition is fierce.
2- Cub Killing
Each species will attempt to kill the Cubs of the other, the lion pride system will protect the Cubs better than the solitary tigress
3- Kill Success Rate
Prides will kill more successfully and larger prey than single lions or tigers
4- Kill Retention
Prides will keep their kill from solitary tigers and may drive tigers off their kills 
The tiger stands to lose a lot and it's situation is already grim outside major national parks so I want to see the lions in another area away from the Tigers maybe towards suitable habitat in north Gujarat , Punjab, and even Pakistan ...Mr Modi though will not agree to that .
A few things I disagree with

Gir Lions-
I have seen nothing that says they are more successful in hunting compared to solitary Tigers when comparing a pride to a lone predator.
Their prey size in no larger in the Gir than anywhere else in India, in fact I have never seen them successful hunt anything larger than a Blue Bull, but I am sure that has more to do with prey available to them than capabilities, obviously.
Pride males are much smaller in coalition size than others, may be with the threat of a larger apex cat that could threaten their young (The Tiger) they would adapt to form larger coalitions but that is a theory and remains to be seen. They still struggle the same as other coalitions in africa, correct?
Like you said, gir lion numbers are growing but their territory is not, we should see an increase in coalition size if that is the case, which to my knowledge, we haven't yet.
While a pride of females will most surely run off a tigress, they certainly will not run off a male, unless the pride number is larger, 5 or more I would think or they have cubs present. They obviously become much more aggressive but still lack the capabilities to deter an aggressive male who is hell bent on killing a cub from what I have seen.
Lastly, habitat, indian terrain may not be suitable to a large pride or coalition, outside of the gir, and even if so, there is no reason to think that they could live differently in other parts of indian than they do in the Gir.
One would have to assume that they would still need to have smaller prides and coalitions, and I have read that the Males very rarely, if at all are seen with the pride of females unless its time to mate.
But like you what has been discussed, may be the threat of a larger cat would change things, but I don't know, we would need much more evidence to back this.

Tigers-
You are correct in the idea of them being transient as there was a younger tiger who was forced to that area since he couldn't take over his own, but he will not be "young" for long. He will grow in an area unchallenged and prey available to him, his easily attainable size of 220kg - 250kg, 200kg mark would be a smaller tiger, more likely is the 220kg-250kg mark for a mature unchallenged male. This will leave him a 30-50kg weight advantage on the gir lions, but of course it wouldn't matter if he is forced to take on two prime males at the same time.
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Canada Dr Panthera Offline
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#55

(04-24-2014, 04:38 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: It is absolutely incredible, the lone tiger did predate more on the rhino than the lone lion did predate on the cape buffalo.

Tiger was evolved as an ultimate solo predator.

There are only two scientific records of tigers killing adult female Indian rhinos I have come across:
1- Kaziranga in the book " Tigers Forever" a female rhino was killed by tigers ( a courting pair?) while giving birth
2-Chitwan a female rhino was killed by ( a pride of tigers? a tigress and her three grown almost independent cubs) , the rhino had a calf that is cared for by WWF 
All scientifically documented attacks by lone tigers on rhinos are on calves below three years of age ( no horns yet) where tigers are the chief predator of rhino calves taking 15% of new born Kaziranga calves and 10% of Chitwan calves.
Anecdotal reports of lone tiger predation on adult rhinos are extremely rare and not accepted by scientists , forest guards,travellers, hunters, shikaris, adventure writers, observers including myself on safari trips can notice rare behaviour but before it can be recorded scientifically and peer reviewed it will not have any value.
The Cape Buffalo is the third most commonly killed prey animal in Africa after blue wildebeest and plains zebra and possibly contributes the most biomass eaten by lions all over the continent , Africa s 35,000 lions kill close to two million prey animals a year so possibly 300,000-400,000 Buffaloes so even if lone lions kill 1% of these that is still thousands a year versus certainly zero adult rhinos killed by lone tigers, so we cannot agree with you there.
Tigers are superb successful hunters whose lifestyle and environment make them chose medium sized prey for a 2-3 day feast ( adult chital, wild boar , sub-adult sambar) or a large prey for a week long feast ( adult sambar, barasingha, and nilgai or subadult gaur Buffalo banteng ) larger prey ( over 300kg of live weight or 180 kg of edible meat ) will turn to maggot soup in the tropical heat or scavenged by others before the tiger can finish it.
A lion pride on the other hand targets large animals like wildebeest, zebra, kudu, gemsbok, or waterbuck every 3-4 days, snacks of warthog , Impala, or gazelles for one meal, or very large animals like Buffalo,giraffe, elands, and subadult mega fauna when easier prey are not available.
Solo carnivores kill animals less than half of their mass ( Carbon et al.) as we see in Jaguars , leopards, cheetah, and tropical puma....temperate areas puma ( Canada and Patagonia ) , snow leopards, and tigers readily kill prey heavier than them.
Amazing predators!
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United States Pckts Offline
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#56
( This post was last modified: 10-22-2015, 11:02 PM by Pckts )

(10-22-2015, 10:39 PM)Dr Panthera Wrote:
(04-24-2014, 04:38 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: It is absolutely incredible, the lone tiger did predate more on the rhino than the lone lion did predate on the cape buffalo.

Tiger was evolved as an ultimate solo predator.

There are only two scientific records of tigers killing adult female Indian rhinos I have come across:
1- Kaziranga in the book " Tigers Forever" a female rhino was killed by tigers ( a courting pair?) while giving birth
2-Chitwan a female rhino was killed by ( a pride of tigers? a tigress and her three grown almost independent cubs) , the rhino had a calf that is cared for by WWF 
All scientifically documented attacks by lone tigers on rhinos are on calves below three years of age ( no horns yet) where tigers are the chief predator of rhino calves taking 15% of new born Kaziranga calves and 10% of Chitwan calves.
Anecdotal reports of lone tiger predation on adult rhinos are extremely rare and not accepted by scientists , forest guards,travellers, hunters, shikaris, adventure writers, observers including myself on safari trips can notice rare behaviour but before it can be recorded scientifically and peer reviewed it will not have any value.
The Cape Buffalo is the third most commonly killed prey animal in Africa after blue wildebeest and plains zebra and possibly contributes the most biomass eaten by lions all over the continent , Africa s 35,000 lions kill close to two million prey animals a year so possibly 300,000-400,000 Buffaloes so even if lone lions kill 1% of these that is still thousands a year versus certainly zero adult rhinos killed by lone tigers, so we cannot agree with you there.
Tigers are superb successful hunters whose lifestyle and environment make them chose medium sized prey for a 2-3 day feast ( adult chital, wild boar , sub-adult sambar) or a large prey for a week long feast ( adult sambar, barasingha, and nilgai or subadult gaur Buffalo banteng ) larger prey ( over 300kg of live weight or 180 kg of edible meat ) will turn to maggot soup in the tropical heat or scavenged by others before the tiger can finish it.
A lion pride on the other hand targets large animals like wildebeest, zebra, kudu, gemsbok, or waterbuck every 3-4 days, snacks of warthog , Impala, or gazelles for one meal, or very large animals like Buffalo,giraffe, elands, and subadult mega fauna when easier prey are not available.
Solo carnivores kill animals less than half of their mass ( Carbon et al.) as we see in Jaguars , leopards, cheetah, and tropical puma....temperate areas puma ( Canada and Patagonia ) , snow leopards, and tigers readily kill prey heavier than them.
Amazing predators!
LUCKNOW: Have Dudhwa tigers shunned their preferred prey - the cheetals and sambhars - to hunt the mighty rhinos? The killing of a 35-year-old female rhino by a tiger in Dudhwa national park and the subsequent eating of the carcass has raised a doubt if the behaviour of Dudhwa tigers is changing. The experts are not ready to buy the argument that the declining prey base is the reason why tigers are hunting and eating rhinos.

"If tiger population in the park is increasing, prey base can not decline," said Tito Joseph from the wildlife protection society of India ( WPSI). The tiger sneaked into the rhino rehabilitation area to kill the 35-year-old female rhino Pavitri, brought to Dudhwa in 1984 under the rhino rehabilitation programme. This was the fifth attack since November last year on rhinos by tigers in Dudhwa. In the past one year, two rhinos have been killed by tigers and one has rescued by the park administration in Dudhwa. The feline attacks on rhinos aren't rare. But, in most of the incidents, it's the cubs which are killed.

Contrary to this, it was an adult female rhino killed this time. Is it the same tiger which is killing rhinos? Is the attacking feline old? Bibhav Taluqdar, who chairs International Union for Conservation of Nature Asian rhino specialist group, said Dudhwa authorities should try to find answers to such questions in case the attacks are rampant. "It's not rare that tigers kill and eat rhino. Rhino comes as an easy hunt for a tiger who can not chase a deer," he said.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/...282354.cms


They also certainly do not only prey on "sub adult guar"
You can take a look through the tiger predation thread if you'd like and see Adult Bull guar and Adult female guar fall prey to Tigers, time and time again. I have confirmation of a female taking down a adult bull guar which i didn't believe. I even had to go to the actual photographer to get the proof because I thought it was a cow.
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Siddharth SinghFriends Of Dudhwa Follow · June 27, 2014 ·    ·   Re-introduction of Rhinos to Dudhwa has indirectly helped increase pray base for Dudhwa Tigers who with time have claimed many Adult Rhinos in the past few years,one of the shot from a series of 105 photos that i was able to get for the first time at Dudhwa Rhino Area,it is common for Tigers to kill Rhinos in parks of Assam and Nepal,here is proof for those critics of mine and Dudhwa who have indirectly pushed me to work harder to prove my points,i hope my photos from Dudhwa in 2013-14 will help in understanding that a lot of hard work has to be put in to get one such shot how difficult it is to save them only those who are working at ground level will understand,Sorry for bad water mark but had to protect image

*This image is copyright of its original author


He says the same, but to be honest, Kaziranga is the only place to have one horned rhino and I have been with in inches of a male one horned Rhino and it was the size of a Jeep Cherokee. They would be a serious prey option and would have to be taken on by a specific Rhino Specialist of a cat. To this day I have never seen a predation of a Adult Rhino by even a pride of lions, I know they are a serious threat and the one horned is the second largest of them all. Even though the zoologist at the Safari Park told me the one horned was the largest of them all and the male was larger than the White Rhinos they had on site as well. Both are to massive to differentiate with the naked eye. I have no doubt that when it happens it is extremely rare. Why wouldn't it be?
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( This post was last modified: 10-22-2015, 11:09 PM by Pckts )

But all in all, of course they will target a juvenile Rhino, its still a large meal and much less risky. But they have attacked adults so its obviously possible for them to do so, but to say its "rare" is an understatement. At least to human history.


*This image is copyright of its original author
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Canada Dr Panthera Offline
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(10-22-2015, 10:02 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(10-22-2015, 12:18 PM)Dr Panthera Wrote: A conflict in Kuno between reintroduced Asiatic lions and transient tigers from Rajasthan or other areas from Madhya Pradesh is inevitable and will have tragic consequences to the preservation of both species especially the tiger.
Nature avoids duplication in apex predators except if resources are very rich or separation is present for example the Florida Everglades is a rich habitat where both the American crocodile and the American alligator occur, orcas and great white sharks share rich habitats in several areas , Jaguars and Pumas live together over most of the neotropics but Jaguars are larger and take larger prey, only in Mexico with abundant deer and peccaries population where the size of puma is close to the jaguar and the prey mass preferred is compatible .
Asiatic lions have known a great success in the last few decades more than all other lions and tigers, asiatic lions filled all available habitat and became so densely concentrated that some lions started to move away from the protected areas to conquer new grounds , the descendants of twelve lions from the 1800's number over five hundred now leading scientists like Sunquist to state that: " Lions living in tiger habitats, and utilizing tiger prey base, still occur at higher densities than tigers".
If lions are introduced to areas closer to tigers both animals will suffer in the following areas:
1- Direct Aggression
Encounters between the two animals are likely to be violent and aggressive, the solitary tiger is slightly larger ( males 180-200 kg with some even reaching the 240's, and females 100-160 kg compared with 160-190 kg for male Asiatic lions and 115-120 kg for lionesses ) the tiger may have a slight size advantage in one on one encounters, yet again most tigers in the proposed areas are transient young adults or past prime drifters and are likely to be killed by lions.
Meena and Jhala give Gir lion coalition numbers from one to four with a pair of males the most common, and pride lionesses from two to six lionesses with four or three lionesses being the most common, a pride of two lions and four lionesses will kill all tigers in the area, male lions will spend longer time with their lionesses when competition is fierce.
2- Cub Killing
Each species will attempt to kill the Cubs of the other, the lion pride system will protect the Cubs better than the solitary tigress
3- Kill Success Rate
Prides will kill more successfully and larger prey than single lions or tigers
4- Kill Retention
Prides will keep their kill from solitary tigers and may drive tigers off their kills 
The tiger stands to lose a lot and it's situation is already grim outside major national parks so I want to see the lions in another area away from the Tigers maybe towards suitable habitat in north Gujarat , Punjab, and even Pakistan ...Mr Modi though will not agree to that .
A few things I disagree with

Gir Lions-
I have seen nothing that says they are more successful in hunting compared to solitary Tigers when comparing a pride to a lone predator.
Their prey size in no larger in the Gir than anywhere else in India, in fact I have never seen them successful hunt anything larger than a Blue Bull, but I am sure that has more to do with prey available to them than capabilities, obviously.
Pride males are much smaller in coalition size than others, may be with the threat of a larger apex cat that could threaten their young (The Tiger) they would adapt to form larger coalitions but that is a theory and remains to be seen. They still struggle the same as other coalitions in africa, correct?
Like you said, gir lion numbers are growing but their territory is not, we should see an increase in coalition size if that is the case, which to my knowledge, we haven't yet.
While a pride of females will most surely run off a tigress, they certainly will not run off a male, unless the pride number is larger, 5 or more I would think or they have cubs present. They obviously become much more aggressive but still lack the capabilities to deter an aggressive male who is hell bent on killing a cub from what I have seen.
Lastly, habitat, indian terrain may not be suitable to a large pride or coalition, outside of the gir, and even if so, there is no reason to think that they could live differently in other parts of indian than they do in the Gir.
One would have to assume that they would still need to have smaller prides and coalitions, and I have read that the Males very rarely, if at all are seen with the pride of females unless its time to mate.
But like you what has been discussed, may be the threat of a larger cat would change things, but I don't know, we would need much more evidence to back this.

Tigers-
You are correct in the idea of them being transient as there was a younger tiger who was forced to that area since he couldn't take over his own, but he will not be "young" for long. He will grow in an area unchallenged and prey available to him, his easily attainable size of 220kg - 250kg, 200kg mark would be a smaller tiger, more likely is the 220kg-250kg mark for a mature unchallenged male. This will leave him a 30-50kg weight advantage on the gir lions, but of course it wouldn't matter if he is forced to take on two prime males at the same time.

We are in agreement and in disagreement at the same time?the essence of debate!
Yes Nilgai and Sambar are the largest wild prey in Gir similar to Ranthambhore and Sariska both lions and tigers In western India depend on sambar and chital but supplement with domestic Buffalo and cattle, the environment in the dry forest of west India are not suitable to gaur or water buffalo so not much in large prey, I still think an adequate stock of sambar, chital, nilgai, and wild boar will be a good start, if India had the savannah woodlands with large prey lions would have colonized those areas long time ago, lions do not like monsoon forests, they do not occur in the Congo basin or west African forests they leave them to leopards!...maybe areas in north west India like the Punjab and Sindh in Pakistan but human density in these areas is high and I am not optimistic .
Communal cub defence by lionesses is impressive I have read accounts of one lioness, five lionesses, and two lionesses killing infanticidal males and similarly an account of an Amur tigress and three Bengal tigresses including the one described by Thapar killing male tigers in defence of cubs...while we marvel at male kings it is really the lionesses and tigresses who control the society!
Larger coalitions and prides ( 3 males, 6 females) occupy the prime areas in west Gir with the most prey and smaller prides with more loose male-female association occupy fringe habitat, pride formation and size is subject to the following:
1- Availability of resources particularly large prey
2- The protection of cubs against rival lions ( and possibly tigers if this happens)
3- The defence of territory against rival lions
4- Eliminating competition of other predators 
We both agree that a 100 square kilometres housing a male tiger and two females can not accommodate a lion pride of two males and four or five females...there are not enough resources for all these cats and conflict is inevitable and I fear Tigers will be affected more so I want to see both cats fully protected and with prospects for their cubs 
The young male tiger dispersing from Ranthambhore or Sariska is likely to be 100-120 kg at two to two and half years of age, he will need to roam and learn, hunt for himself and build his experience hopefully between five and six years he is fully grown almost twice his size and ready to attempt a challenge...sadly only a small percentage achieve that most wil be in conflict with man and will be shot and if we add lion conflict we will make it worse.
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Canada Dr Panthera Offline
Pharmacist and biologist
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(10-22-2015, 10:53 PM)OPckts Wrote:
(10-22-2015, 10:39 PM)Dr Panthera Wrote:
(04-24-2014, 04:38 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: It is absolutely incredible, the lone tiger did predate more on the rhino than the lone lion did predate on the cape buffalo.

Tiger was evolved as an ultimate solo predator.

There are only two scientific records of tigers killing adult female Indian rhinos I have come across:
1- Kaziranga in the book " Tigers Forever" a female rhino was killed by tigers ( a courting pair?) while giving birth
2-Chitwan a female rhino was killed by ( a pride of tigers? a tigress and her three grown almost independent cubs) , the rhino had a calf that is cared for by WWF 
All scientifically documented attacks by lone tigers on rhinos are on calves below three years of age ( no horns yet) where tigers are the chief predator of rhino calves taking 15% of new born Kaziranga calves and 10% of Chitwan calves.
Anecdotal reports of lone tiger predation on adult rhinos are extremely rare and not accepted by scientists , forest guards,travellers, hunters, shikaris, adventure writers, observers including myself on safari trips can notice rare behaviour but before it can be recorded scientifically and peer reviewed it will not have any value.
The Cape Buffalo is the third most commonly killed prey animal in Africa after blue wildebeest and plains zebra and possibly contributes the most biomass eaten by lions all over the continent , Africa s 35,000 lions kill close to two million prey animals a year so possibly 300,000-400,000 Buffaloes so even if lone lions kill 1% of these that is still thousands a year versus certainly zero adult rhinos killed by lone tigers, so we cannot agree with you there.
Tigers are superb successful hunters whose lifestyle and environment make them chose medium sized prey for a 2-3 day feast ( adult chital, wild boar , sub-adult sambar) or a large prey for a week long feast ( adult sambar, barasingha, and nilgai or subadult gaur Buffalo banteng ) larger prey ( over 300kg of live weight or 180 kg of edible meat ) will turn to maggot soup in the tropical heat or scavenged by others before the tiger can finish it.
A lion pride on the other hand targets large animals like wildebeest, zebra, kudu, gemsbok, or waterbuck every 3-4 days, snacks of warthog , Impala, or gazelles for one meal, or very large animals like Buffalo,giraffe, elands, and subadult mega fauna when easier prey are not available.
Solo carnivores kill animals less than half of their mass ( Carbon et al.) as we see in Jaguars , leopards, cheetah, and tropical puma....temperate areas puma ( Canada and Patagonia ) , snow leopards, and tigers readily kill prey heavier than them.
Amazing predators!
LUCKNOW: Have Dudhwa tigers shunned their preferred prey - the cheetals and sambhars - to hunt the mighty rhinos? The killing of a 35-year-old female rhino by a tiger in Dudhwa national park and the subsequent eating of the carcass has raised a doubt if the behaviour of Dudhwa tigers is changing. The experts are not ready to buy the argument that the declining prey base is the reason why tigers are hunting and eating rhinos.

"If tiger population in the park is increasing, prey base can not decline," said Tito Joseph from the wildlife protection society of India ( WPSI). The tiger sneaked into the rhino rehabilitation area to kill the 35-year-old female rhino Pavitri, brought to Dudhwa in 1984 under the rhino rehabilitation programme. This was the fifth attack since November last year on rhinos by tigers in Dudhwa. In the past one year, two rhinos have been killed by tigers and one has rescued by the park administration in Dudhwa. The feline attacks on rhinos aren't rare. But, in most of the incidents, it's the cubs which are killed.

Contrary to this, it was an adult female rhino killed this time. Is it the same tiger which is killing rhinos? Is the attacking feline old? Bibhav Taluqdar, who chairs International Union for Conservation of Nature Asian rhino specialist group, said Dudhwa authorities should try to find answers to such questions in case the attacks are rampant. "It's not rare that tigers kill and eat rhino. Rhino comes as an easy hunt for a tiger who can not chase a deer," he said.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/...282354.cms


They also certainly do not only prey on "sub adult guar"
You can take a look through the tiger predation thread if you'd like and see Adult Bull guar and Adult female guar fall prey to Tigers, time and time again. I have confirmation of a female taking down a adult bull guar which i didn't believe. I even had to go to the actual photographer to get the proof because I thought it was a cow.

Of course tigers kill adult gaur banteng and water buffalo, rare but it happens, and a main reason for that is the fact that the meat will be maggots before the tiger can finish it all off, a subadult will feed a tiger for a week with less risk of injury so it will be targeted more, tigers are intelligent and calculating predators why attempt a bull gaur with high risk of injury and failure where you stand a much better chance with a 250-300 kg subadult that you can more easily killed .
The accounts mentioned again are not scientific...I can not present a lecture on the feeding ecology of tiger with respect to predation on rhinos and quote the Times of India , I need to quote renowned works by prominent tiger biologists ( Sunquist, Dinerstein, Seidensticker, Mills, MacDonald, McDougal, Karanth and others). And pictures of rhinos and tigers without ones of killing bites can not make a very rare occurrence a component of tiger ecology.
The Mapogo Lions in Kruger killed many rhinos over the years mostly sub-adults but difficult to assess the age from half eaten carcasses.
The only scientific record of a big cat predation on a rhino bull is from Du Toit in Mala Mala game reserve in South Africa where a pride of four lionesses killed a white rhino bull.
White rhino Bulls reach 2400 kg and Indian rhino Bulls 2250 kg so very comparable, I saw white rhinos in Nakuru park in Kenya amazing animals and saw black rhinos in Nakuru park and Ngorongoro crater, great animals under 24 hour guard protection where lions and hyenas can not approach their calves , this is impossible in Nepal or northern India and therefore tiger predation on rhino calves is a limiting factor of rhino recovery and conservation.
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