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Lions and Tigers in India

United States Pckts Offline
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#61

Ustad was confirmed 240kg at age 3.5 years
Another male was confirmed 220kg and Machlis daughter was 170kg confirmed. So at age 2.5years I think the male tiger will definitely be much larger than 100-120kg and now he has had time to grow and is larger than he was for sure. Not that it will matter against multiple attackers most likely.

In regards to Lioness or Tigress defeating transient males, while it has happened, it certainly doesn't happen more often than the latter. I have seen far more successful infanticides than the opposite, some times the female goes out "on her shield" so to speak. Like the case with Machlis daughter, T-17 I believe against T25 after she mated with a different male and T25 killed her in territorial fight and one of her cubs. 



"They do not occur in the Congo basin or west African forests they leave them to leopards!"
There have actually been Gabon Lions Phototrapped
http://wildfact.com/forum/topic-camera-t...n-20-years

and there are N. East congo Lions as well.

Which was very surprising to me as well that lions do live in these terrains. Not sure how the terrain differentiates to West african forests though?
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United States Pckts Offline
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#62

(10-22-2015, 11:51 PM)Dr Panthera Wrote:
(10-22-2015, 10:53 PM)OPckts Wrote:
(10-22-2015, 10:39 PM)Dr Panthera Wrote:
(04-24-2014, 04:38 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: It is absolutely incredible, the lone tiger did predate more on the rhino than the lone lion did predate on the cape buffalo.

Tiger was evolved as an ultimate solo predator.

There are only two scientific records of tigers killing adult female Indian rhinos I have come across:
1- Kaziranga in the book " Tigers Forever" a female rhino was killed by tigers ( a courting pair?) while giving birth
2-Chitwan a female rhino was killed by ( a pride of tigers? a tigress and her three grown almost independent cubs) , the rhino had a calf that is cared for by WWF 
All scientifically documented attacks by lone tigers on rhinos are on calves below three years of age ( no horns yet) where tigers are the chief predator of rhino calves taking 15% of new born Kaziranga calves and 10% of Chitwan calves.
Anecdotal reports of lone tiger predation on adult rhinos are extremely rare and not accepted by scientists , forest guards,travellers, hunters, shikaris, adventure writers, observers including myself on safari trips can notice rare behaviour but before it can be recorded scientifically and peer reviewed it will not have any value.
The Cape Buffalo is the third most commonly killed prey animal in Africa after blue wildebeest and plains zebra and possibly contributes the most biomass eaten by lions all over the continent , Africa s 35,000 lions kill close to two million prey animals a year so possibly 300,000-400,000 Buffaloes so even if lone lions kill 1% of these that is still thousands a year versus certainly zero adult rhinos killed by lone tigers, so we cannot agree with you there.
Tigers are superb successful hunters whose lifestyle and environment make them chose medium sized prey for a 2-3 day feast ( adult chital, wild boar , sub-adult sambar) or a large prey for a week long feast ( adult sambar, barasingha, and nilgai or subadult gaur Buffalo banteng ) larger prey ( over 300kg of live weight or 180 kg of edible meat ) will turn to maggot soup in the tropical heat or scavenged by others before the tiger can finish it.
A lion pride on the other hand targets large animals like wildebeest, zebra, kudu, gemsbok, or waterbuck every 3-4 days, snacks of warthog , Impala, or gazelles for one meal, or very large animals like Buffalo,giraffe, elands, and subadult mega fauna when easier prey are not available.
Solo carnivores kill animals less than half of their mass ( Carbon et al.) as we see in Jaguars , leopards, cheetah, and tropical puma....temperate areas puma ( Canada and Patagonia ) , snow leopards, and tigers readily kill prey heavier than them.
Amazing predators!
LUCKNOW: Have Dudhwa tigers shunned their preferred prey - the cheetals and sambhars - to hunt the mighty rhinos? The killing of a 35-year-old female rhino by a tiger in Dudhwa national park and the subsequent eating of the carcass has raised a doubt if the behaviour of Dudhwa tigers is changing. The experts are not ready to buy the argument that the declining prey base is the reason why tigers are hunting and eating rhinos.

"If tiger population in the park is increasing, prey base can not decline," said Tito Joseph from the wildlife protection society of India ( WPSI). The tiger sneaked into the rhino rehabilitation area to kill the 35-year-old female rhino Pavitri, brought to Dudhwa in 1984 under the rhino rehabilitation programme. This was the fifth attack since November last year on rhinos by tigers in Dudhwa. In the past one year, two rhinos have been killed by tigers and one has rescued by the park administration in Dudhwa. The feline attacks on rhinos aren't rare. But, in most of the incidents, it's the cubs which are killed.

Contrary to this, it was an adult female rhino killed this time. Is it the same tiger which is killing rhinos? Is the attacking feline old? Bibhav Taluqdar, who chairs International Union for Conservation of Nature Asian rhino specialist group, said Dudhwa authorities should try to find answers to such questions in case the attacks are rampant. "It's not rare that tigers kill and eat rhino. Rhino comes as an easy hunt for a tiger who can not chase a deer," he said.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/...282354.cms


They also certainly do not only prey on "sub adult guar"
You can take a look through the tiger predation thread if you'd like and see Adult Bull guar and Adult female guar fall prey to Tigers, time and time again. I have confirmation of a female taking down a adult bull guar which i didn't believe. I even had to go to the actual photographer to get the proof because I thought it was a cow.

Of course tigers kill adult gaur banteng and water buffalo, rare but it happens, and a main reason for that is the fact that the meat will be maggots before the tiger can finish it all off, a subadult will feed a tiger for a week with less risk of injury so it will be targeted more, tigers are intelligent and calculating predators why attempt a bull gaur with high risk of injury and failure where you stand a much better chance with a 250-300 kg subadult that you can more easily killed .
The accounts mentioned again are not scientific...I can not present a lecture on the feeding ecology of tiger with respect to predation on rhinos and quote the Times of India , I need to quote renowned works by prominent tiger biologists ( Sunquist, Dinerstein, Seidensticker, Mills, MacDonald, McDougal, Karanth and others). And pictures of rhinos and tigers without ones of killing bites can not make a very rare occurrence a component of tiger ecology.
The Mapogo Lions in Kruger killed many rhinos over the years mostly sub-adults but difficult to assess the age from half eaten carcasses.
The only scientific record of a big cat predation on a rhino bull is from Du Toit in Mala Mala game reserve in South Africa where a pride of four lionesses killed a white rhino bull.
White rhino Bulls reach 2400 kg and Indian rhino Bulls 2250 kg so very comparable, I saw white rhinos in Nakuru park in Kenya amazing animals and saw black rhinos in Nakuru park and Ngorongoro crater, great animals under 24 hour guard protection where lions and hyenas can not approach their calves , this is impossible in Nepal or northern India and therefore tiger predation on rhino calves is a limiting factor of rhino recovery and conservation.

You could contact the WPSI if you'd like?
http://www.wpsi-india.org/wpsi/index.php

Wildlife Protection Society of India
S-25 Panchsheel Park
New Delhi 110017, INDIA
 

Tel: (Int.+ 91.11) 4163.5920/21
Fax: (Int.+91.11) 4163.5924
E-mail: wpsi@vsnl.com
Website: www.wpsi-india.org



and the here is the Dudwa facebook page
https://www.facebook.com/groups/friends.of.dudhwa/
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Canada Dr Panthera Offline
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#63

Pckts 
I am trying to post pictures from the book " Relentless Enemies" showing the following:
Male lion strangulating male Buffalo
Lioness strangulating male Buffalo
Lioness attempting to kill male Buffalo with the buffalo herd returning to the rescue
I can not shrink the file, sorry technologically impaired I am an old man.
Any suggestions.
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India sanjay Offline
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#64

@Dr Panthera, I agree its hard for anyone who is not tech savvy to grasp all these thing. I have made a pictorial tutorials for our members -

1. If you want to upload image form your computer, laptop or any other device, go to
http://wildfact.com/forum/topic-how-to-upload-image

2. If you want to insert images from other website from internet, like for example google, facebook etc, then please go to
http://wildfact.com/forum/topic-how-to-i...this-forum

3. If you want to embed a video from youtube, vimeo or other website, go to
http://wildfact.com/forum/topic-how-to-e...s-in-posts

4. If you want to mention or tag another member in your posts, go to
http://wildfact.com/forum/topic-how-to-t...-your-post

Actually all this tutorial is on Tips, Guides and Tutorial section of this forum

Hope this help
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Canada Dr Panthera Offline
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#65


*This image is copyright of its original author
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Canada Dr Panthera Offline
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#66

Somehow the scan butchered the photo showing the lion head. Much larger than the buffalo head

*This image is copyright of its original author
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Canada Dr Panthera Offline
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#67

This Tsaro lioness brought down a buffalo bull by herself and was applying the killer bite , the herd returned and an army of buffalo came to the rescue and saved their comrade, one of the male lions killed him the next day.


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
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United States chaos Offline
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#68

That's my alltime favorite lioness pic. That cat is shredded. Pure muscle.
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Romania Black Lorren Offline
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#69
( This post was last modified: 10-24-2015, 07:28 AM by Black Lorren )

Ripped, from nose to tail.
Cheers chaos, long time no see!
Oh wait, this is my topic...hmmm!
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Canada Dr Panthera Offline
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#70

(10-24-2015, 01:13 AM)chaos Wrote: That's my alltime favorite lioness pic. That cat is shredded. Pure muscle.

This is one of the seven Tsaro lionesses, specialist buffalo killers, swamp cats, and massive girls, Joubert estimated the combined weight of all seven to be around 1200 kg so roughly 170 kg each the size of many males!
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United States chaos Offline
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#71

Behind her is an angry wall of buffalo.
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United States Pckts Offline
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#72

(10-24-2015, 03:17 PM)Dr Panthera Wrote:
(10-24-2015, 01:13 AM)chaos Wrote: That's my alltime favorite lioness pic. That cat is shredded. Pure muscle.

This is one of the seven Tsaro lionesses, specialist buffalo killers, swamp cats, and massive girls, Joubert estimated the combined weight of all seven to be around 1200 kg so roughly 170 kg each the size of many males!

You made my day!

Well done sir, any others you have will obviously be greatly appreciated. Thanks again for the advice on my upcoming trip to africa and on opening my eyes to the possibilities of these big cats.
I no longer apply "rules" to their predation capabilities. Under the right circumstances I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt against any foe. Even a bull rhino or elephant, they just need the perfect storm of "the right cat, right time, right place and right plan of attack"

Thanks again.
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United States Ba Ba Lou Offline
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#73

Asiatic lion and Bengal tiger co-existed in Kuno before and they can co-exist in Kuno again.
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United States Polar Offline
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#74

Yep, they will decide their own territories, not like us humans. They co-exist peacefully.
"Be the reason someone smiles. Be the reason someone feels loved and believes in the goodness in people."

- Roy T. Bennett
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India Rishi Offline
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#75
( This post was last modified: 05-03-2017, 09:41 AM by Rishi )

Check out these two works...

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

I think tigers & lions might have gone a step little further than mutual cohabitation at some point in time!!!..  [Image: huh.png]    

(People must have seen these..How else does one explain the similar looks & stature & correct relative size w.r.t humans in two different paintings of different times from two different regions of India??!!!)
"Everything not saved will be lost."

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