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Intelligence of the big cats...

Finland Shadow Offline
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#46

(12-30-2018, 06:14 PM)Amnon242 Wrote:
(12-30-2018, 05:51 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(12-30-2018, 05:29 PM)Amnon242 Wrote:
(12-30-2018, 02:59 AM)paul cooper Wrote: What i dont like is how she focuses on lions so much. God damn. Scared to go to india or what?

I dont think that she is into that tigervslion think...but she could be biased in another way - she could have tendency to confirm the theory of higher intelligence of social animals. But thats just a speculation, lets not suspect her of bad intentions. Ok, she made experiment with 21 safari lions and 7 tigers from "orphanage" (and zoo?). Lions were better at opening the door. Everyone is free to make his own conclusion. 

BTW do you have any info on similar experiment...?
And we can´t forget, that there were leopards too. Has someone information about their conditions in this test? Then we have also soon coming more information from Borrago and Dowling research. There in some photos it looked like two lions had to pull different ropes in same time to be able to open a door. So these tests look like to be a step forward from just opening a door. When someone suspects motives of some researcher, same time it is good to remember, that documents are public and for sure in science community there are a lot of tiger experts giving feedback. Borrago for sure can´t live in any "lion bubble" :)

These tests can be a good start for some real research about a subject which has been discussed many times. Main thing is to find out ways to make tests, which are suitable to different species and then do those in fair way.

"There in some photos it looked like two lions had to pull different ropes in same time to be able to open a door" - I belive that when it comes to cooperation, lions are better than any other felid. 


"for sure in science community there are a lot of tiger experts giving feedback" - Ok, you have your own idea of the activities of scientists and relationships in the scientific community...I respect that :-)

Of course nothing is black and white. But when someone publishes something and it is well documented, then we have something there. Of course we can start to dismiss everything and believe nothing if not suitable to that, what we want to believe. But if you have your list about people, who are credible and who are not, feel free to enlighten me :)
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Czech Republic Amnon242 Offline
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#47

(12-30-2018, 06:19 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(12-30-2018, 06:14 PM)Amnon242 Wrote:
(12-30-2018, 05:51 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(12-30-2018, 05:29 PM)Amnon242 Wrote:
(12-30-2018, 02:59 AM)paul cooper Wrote: What i dont like is how she focuses on lions so much. God damn. Scared to go to india or what?

I dont think that she is into that tigervslion think...but she could be biased in another way - she could have tendency to confirm the theory of higher intelligence of social animals. But thats just a speculation, lets not suspect her of bad intentions. Ok, she made experiment with 21 safari lions and 7 tigers from "orphanage" (and zoo?). Lions were better at opening the door. Everyone is free to make his own conclusion. 

BTW do you have any info on similar experiment...?
And we can´t forget, that there were leopards too. Has someone information about their conditions in this test? Then we have also soon coming more information from Borrago and Dowling research. There in some photos it looked like two lions had to pull different ropes in same time to be able to open a door. So these tests look like to be a step forward from just opening a door. When someone suspects motives of some researcher, same time it is good to remember, that documents are public and for sure in science community there are a lot of tiger experts giving feedback. Borrago for sure can´t live in any "lion bubble" :)

These tests can be a good start for some real research about a subject which has been discussed many times. Main thing is to find out ways to make tests, which are suitable to different species and then do those in fair way.

"There in some photos it looked like two lions had to pull different ropes in same time to be able to open a door" - I belive that when it comes to cooperation, lions are better than any other felid. 


"for sure in science community there are a lot of tiger experts giving feedback" - Ok, you have your own idea of the activities of scientists and relationships in the scientific community...I respect that :-)

Of course nothing is black and white. But when someone publishes something and it is well documented, then we have something there. Of course we can start to dismiss everything and believe nothing if not suitable to that, what we want to believe. But if you have your list about people, who are credible and who are not, feel free to enlighten me :)

OK, once again: "...lets not suspect her of bad intentions". 
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Czech Republic Amnon242 Offline
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#48

...another problem is that if we talk about intelligence (and test it), we mean the human concept of intelligence. This is probably an incorrect approach to the matter...

I find the comparison of "intelligence" between animals misleading, they are as intelligent as they need to be. Yes, mentality of some animals is more simillar to that of humans...and thats probably the reason why we find them to be more intelligent.   

Lets forget that TvL thing and lets compare leopards and bears (who are said to be the smartest predators) - leopards have to solve some kind of tasks or problems in their natural environment and their natural way of life. If they had the mental capabilities of bears, would they solve their problems more effectively? I dont think so.
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United States paul cooper Offline
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#49

Amnon, i do have similar experiments. Ill post them later. The lions did horrible at it. The experiments with Borrego where two lions have to cooperate at opening the box, is in the documentary "Killer IQ". I will also post the documentaries. 

Borrego went to the Serengeti, Florida Miami Zoo, Florida Tampa, and South Africa. Isnt John Varty in South Africa. 

According to the videos posted on youtube, about Borregos study, her "captive" lions were in a huge enclosure. The leopards apparently were also in a similar enclosure. Isnt @tigerluver a biologist according to peter? Maybe he can get access to Borregos study and post the supplimentary clips of the animals doing the tests.
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Finland Shadow Offline
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#50
( This post was last modified: 12-31-2018, 05:10 AM by Shadow Edit Reason: Adding another video. )

Here is that documentary Killer IQ so that anyone interested can watch.





I had missed this, but interesting to watch it. 

Here is another part of this documentary about lions and hyenas.




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Finland Shadow Offline
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#51

Here is interview of Dr. Natalia Borrego. Not only about big cats, but if interested about only those and hyenas, then start from 4:40. I found this interesting to watch, when not just a short statement about something.




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United States paul cooper Offline
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#52
( This post was last modified: 01-01-2019, 04:47 AM by paul cooper )

Very weak science. Tigers not giving a shit about opening the box means they lost the trial. Not sure why she said only one tiger opened the box, this is another tiger opening the box from her experiment, and it was his first try. Two tigers opened the box.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cd1jyaymOhg

Oh, maybe she didnt count it because the tiger didnt pull on the role but instead open the latch a different way?

Not opening the box isnt what matters. What matters is if the animal opens the box, and remembers opens it up repeatedly trials after meaning the animal understands the situation. Right? At least most of the cognition is dependent on this. 

It would be nice to have a paper like this recording all the trials. Because here you can see some of the trials lost from the tiger, its clearly coincidental.
https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/suppl/....sd01.xlsx

This is from a different study:

Kisi the female amur tiger. She went to the box on the first trial, her dexerity is low, she spends barely a minute and a half and leaves. Is this a measure of intelligence? No.
Kisi had another trial to open the box. She got to the box in one second. She stayed at the box for 24 seconds. And she left. Her dexterity wasnt recorded. Is this a measure of intelligence? No.
Kisi had another trial to open the box. She got to the box in 5 seconds. She attempted to open the box for 2 seconds. The trial is then over. How can this possibly measure intelligence?

Telawley the female amur tiger. On her first trial she opened the box in almost 5 minutes. Her dexterity score was very high.
On her second attempt she did not open the box. She couldnt figure it out again. Third attempt she opened it. Fourth trial she did not open the box but she was only there for a minute. Maybe she didnt care.
Fifth to tenth attempts she opened the box. In less than two minutes. Her fifth attempt she didnt open the box. Her tenth attempt took a while. Did she understand the puzzle box?

Sevaki the male amur tiger. First trial he opened the box in a few minutes. But didnt eat the food. Second trial he opened the box. But didnt eat the food.
Third trial he didnt open the box. 1 minute in a half.
Fourth and fifth trials he didnt open the box. He was only there for 24 seconds. I have a big doubt that this has to do with intelligence.

Zeya the female amur tiger. Her first trial, she didnt open the box. Her dexterity was high. Second trial she didnt open it. Both trials took 250 seconds. On her third trial she was only there for 30 seconds.

Foli the male amur tiger, which i know in real life. First trial he didnt open it. 4 minutes and a half.
Second and third trial are only 40 and 70 seconds.

I will bet 1000 dollars her tigers did the same. The puzzle box thing is hardly a test of intelligence.
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United States paul cooper Offline
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#53

All of these lions are in zoos.

Cabara female lion. On her first trial she didnt open the box. 3 and a half minutes. Dexterity score was low.
Second trial, she didnt open the box. 3 minutes and 13 seconds. Third trial, she didnt open the box. 4 and a half minutes. Fourth trial, she didnt open the box. 28 seconds.

Cattali male lion. On his first trial he didnt open the box. 4 minutes. Dexterity score was low. On his second trial he didnt open the box. 5 minutes and 18 seconds. Third trial he didnt open the box. 31 seconds. Fourth trial he didnt open the box. One minute and 20 seconds.

Baby female lion. On her first trial she didnt open the box. 774 seconds. 12 minutes. Low Dexterity score. On her second trial she didnt open the box. One minute and 28 seconds. Third trial she didnt open the box. 20 seconds.


Natal female lion. On her first trial she didnt open the box. 701 seconds. Low dexterity score. On her second trial she didnt open the box. 3 minutes. Fourth trial she didnt open the box. 108 seconds. one minute and a half.

Tomo male lion. His first and second trial he got it. First trial has high dexterity score. Both trials took over 300 seconds. His third trial he didnt open the box. He was there for 462 seconds.

Not the same results Borrego got.
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United States paul cooper Offline
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#54
( This post was last modified: 01-01-2019, 10:44 AM by paul cooper )

(12-29-2018, 12:56 PM)Spalea Wrote: Compared with tigers, lions are always discriminated and mocked, forum after forum, wildfact excepted.

I know that there are fanboys. I dont want to start talking about losers now, but all i got to say is that lion fans are simply a bunch of fucking disgusting human beings. They cannot respect an animal, not to insult it. They like to see animals suffer, and have serious psychological issues. Majority of them are creationists who believe the earth is 6000 years old. And yes, i am referring to you. Stop pretending.
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
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#55

Just one thing, been creationist is not bad, the problem is been FUNDAMENTALIST.

For example, I believe in God (I am Christian Catholic) but also accept the Evolution like a theory, that correctly interpreted do not discard the existence of God in any part. I also understand that Earth existed since millions of years ago and that the history of the creation in Genesis is not a "scientific" fact but a story presented like a catechesis about how God stablished the world in an order, but the Bible in any moment is trying to stablish a scientific facts. In fact, if we read correctly the Genesis book we can see that there are two different histories about the creation.

I think that we should avoid the religious insults because not all religious people are fundamentalists and anti-scientific, just like I know that not all scientists are atheists. 
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United States paul cooper Offline
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#56

That is what i just said.. im talking about people who deny science. Thats probably why they dont understand lions and tigers.

God could be real and put earth in such a way where life can arise. But its no doubt living beings evolved. Maybe we can make a thread about creationism.
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
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#57
( This post was last modified: 01-01-2019, 12:51 PM by GuateGojira )

I am interested in the inteligence of the big cats. I can provide information about the tiger, other can provide about lions and we can make a comparison.

Size of the brain is important, there is no discussion, but also is important to see how that size impact the inteligence and how the animals develop they skills in they different habitats. After all, we must remember that most of the animal acts are managed by basic instincts and in some situations they can change to special adaptations regarding the habitat and in the last place, the individual behaviours. I remember that Richard Perry says that "there is no such thing as the tiger, as all the tigers are individuals". I think that the study that you are discussing (I have not read it, yet) lacks this point of view.

Even between humans, the inteligence is something very subjective and depends of the situation and the specimen. I remember an old debate about wolves vs Komodo dragons and I was sure that the wolf, been a large and social mammal will win with no problem, but other experts on reptiles showed that the varanids are also very inteligent.

I think that I will participate in this debate, but for time issues I think that I will post until the next Sunday, you know job issues.

Greetings to all and try to be peaceful and objective in your posts folks.
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United States paul cooper Offline
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#58

Big cat rescue actually posted borregos experiments on the cats.

This proves how flawed Borregos study is. Now, apparently, she admitted the animals seriously arent interested in the box. She then says she is going to put the boxes while they are open in the enclosure to get the animals used to it. And also put the boxes in the enclosure closed. She says it will make the animals used to the box.




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Finland Shadow Offline
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#59
( This post was last modified: 01-01-2019, 08:19 PM by Shadow )

(01-01-2019, 12:49 PM)GuateGojira Wrote: I am interested in the inteligence of the big cats. I can provide information about the tiger, other can provide about lions and we can make a comparison.

Size of the brain is important, there is no discussion, but also is important to see how that size impact the inteligence and how the animals develop they skills in they different habitats. After all, we must remember that most of the animal acts are managed by basic instincts and in some situations they can change to special adaptations regarding the habitat and in the last place, the individual behaviours. I remember that Richard Perry says that "there is no such thing as the tiger, as all the tigers are individuals". I think that the study that you are discussing (I have not read it, yet) lacks this point of view.

Even between humans, the inteligence is something very subjective and depends of the situation and the specimen. I remember an old debate about wolves vs Komodo dragons and I was sure that the wolf, been a large and social mammal will win with no problem, but other experts on reptiles showed that the varanids are also very inteligent.

I think that I will participate in this debate, but for time issues I think that I will post until the next Sunday, you know job issues.

Greetings to all and try to be peaceful and objective in your posts folks.

Heh, it is interesting to get good information. But what comes to size of the brains, that is far from clear thing. Alone it, that the birds manage to do many quite complex tests among many other things proves that, that size is not as important as many other things. There is a lot of information and studies about it. 

Then again what comes to Borrego, it is easy to talk bad about her and her studies. But then everyone should hear what she tells herself, that she has just begun her research and she herself say, that more research is needed. What is interesting is, that now there is someone(s) who are doing studies and developing more tests and test methods hopefully so, that we get more information. I see that as a good thing, not bad.

What comes to tigers and lions in comparison, who cares if it would happen to be so, that lions would happen to be smarter in some way? Would that make tigers suddenly losers for someone? And if another way, so what? I am always amused in a way, if I notice emotional approach to some matter and then a lot of effort to undermine something just because kind of terrified, that we might get a result, which would be "wrong".

Focus here should be, imo, to bring in as much good information as possible. If talking about some tests, which are proving this or that, then just sources here so that everyone can read and watch and make their own opinions. They can be different kinds in this kind of matter with different people, but main thing is, that all can see what information there is. This is not about weights, body fat or measurements of bones and skulls, so it can be difficult to find a situation where conclusions are so clear, that everyone would have to agree in front of overwhelming evidence. So main focus should be in tolerance and avoiding emotional debates.

I have never kept some big cat as superior compared to others, because I haven´t found enough reliable information to back up such claim. I find approach from Borrego interesting, because she opens up quite a lot how she makes her research and gives interviews like here she did. I don´t see her science weak, but as she say herself, she has just begun and a lot of work to do.

If she finds out, that in her tests lions are better, I don´t see any reason why it couldn´t happen, but I hope, that also in future we can see test footage. If she finds out, that tigers do better, then same thing. It is a little bit difficult to make big estimations about her tests, because only a few were shown in documentaries. I was was looking some parts of her tests and also thinked, that "was that all there?", "really and why didn´t they do like this or like that?". Then again she says, that there were hundreds of tests, so what we saw was not all. 

One interesting part in her tests was that group dynamic and how it changed, when male lions came along. It didn´t make it always easy and females seemed to take suddenly a step backwards when more nervous than with other females :) Hyenas were for sure better in working as a group. Another interesting thing was tests with lions in South Africa, those lions obviously have good conditions or then not too many generations in captivity. I mean they seemed to have strong hunting instinct there. What I briefly checked, captivity has effects in big cats and one thing going off is certain hunting instinct and skills. 

But we will see, let the best cat win Wink  But if we have to settle with result, that impossible to find clear winner, that is not so dangerous Grin We can still all maybe learn something new about these animals and that is at least for me the most valuable thing.
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Finland Shadow Offline
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#60

(01-01-2019, 04:45 PM)paul cooper Wrote: Big cat rescue actually posted borregos experiments on the cats.

This proves how flawed Borregos study is. Now, apparently, she admitted the animals seriously arent interested in the box. She then says she is going to put the boxes while they are open in the enclosure to get the animals used to it. And also put the boxes in the enclosure closed. She says it will make the animals used to the box.




That was a good video and also showed, that Borrego knows problems and try to find out solutions so, that these cat´s really would do their best in tests with good motivation. So I don´t see here any prove about flaws in her tests. She actually explain here how important it is to get big cats motivated so, that test results would then be as accurate as possible. Or maybe I don´t understand english good enough?
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