There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(12-29-2018, 03:00 PM)Amnon242 Wrote: Spalea: "lions are always discriminated and mocked,"
You cant take this seriously. Fanboys (on both sides) have their own psychological issues. Some of them are children...and some of them are simply childish.
I think this has someting to do with projection and with so called "anima" (C.G.Jung), but Im not a psychologist.
But there is... We always heard "male lions do nothing but sleep" and so on...
The hey-day of animal face-off sites was roughly from about 1994 - 2014. Fan-boys were like keyboard-tapping street gangs.
Lions sleep a lot; this is true. But, when the temperature is well above 100 degrees fahrenheit and just about 0 humidity... I would be sleeping in the shade too.
I'm a slow learner, but I try my best to avoid conflicts with fan-boys.
12-29-2018, 05:31 PM( This post was last modified: 12-30-2018, 12:53 AM by ShadowEdit Reason: typo corrected
)
Animal intelligence is of course interesting issue, I think that everyone are interested about it in some level. Same thing as with so many other features, who runs fastest, who jumps longest, who is strongest.... people are always interested and why not, nothing bad to be curious :) For hunters it has been quite important to know/understand many of these things in past. I mean especially in times when hunting was essential for surviving and also of course to know, how to be not hunted by predators.
So I don´t see anything wrong in this kind of curiosity as long as people can maintain objectivity and behave with manners while discussing. Everyone have some favorite animals, but sometimes results can show things which are not what wanting to see. There is always discussions and opinions, but there is also research and testing like now here was in this study by Borrago and Gaines. It is ok to point out some issues which feel questionable, but there is other side of coin too. Even though there were smaller groups of leopards and tigers tested, it doesn´t change the fact, that lions did good. Their results were such, that not easy to do better, at least not significantly, if other results give even a hint what comes to leopards and tigers.
For me particularly innovation and persistence tests are very interesting, many people are familiar with that fact, that some animals learn to open doors and many other things. So this kind of information about animals has many times also real meaning in some things. Like how a dog can sit on something what you are looking for if it happens to like it too. So you might try to find something and dog just sits there and is waiting, that you leave the room :) Never trust to them!!!! There has been research and tests where that kind of behavior has been observed in dogs :)
That Vonk - Leese study was also interesting. It is good to have original reports so, that everyone can read themselves too instead of some short quotes. Quotes are good when original document is there too to check things, but if only some quotes, many times something relevant is missing. If someone knows more of these studies and where original documents can be found at least I am interested to see and read those. No matter what animals have best results :)
Btw, those birds in some tests, just astonishing, really.
(12-29-2018, 03:33 PM)brotherbear Wrote: Perhaps for survival, some of the smaller cats are smarter. I'm thinking cougar and leopard being smart cats. Both are excellent hunters and survivors in multiple environments.
But tiger is also extremely adaptable felid. Anyway, Id say that leopards and others who live in trees have better mental skills for spatial orientation than tigers or lions.
(12-29-2018, 03:00 PM)Amnon242 Wrote: Spalea: "lions are always discriminated and mocked,"
You cant take this seriously. Fanboys (on both sides) have their own psychological issues. Some of them are children...and some of them are simply childish.
I think this has someting to do with projection and with so called "anima" (C.G.Jung), but Im not a psychologist.
But there is... We always heard "male lions do nothing but sleep" and so on...
(12-29-2018, 03:00 PM)Amnon242 Wrote: Spalea: "lions are always discriminated and mocked,"
You cant take this seriously. Fanboys (on both sides) have their own psychological issues. Some of them are children...and some of them are simply childish.
I think this has someting to do with projection and with so called "anima" (C.G.Jung), but Im not a psychologist.
But there is... We always heard "male lions do nothing but sleep" and so on...
The hey-day of animal face-off sites was roughly from about 1994 - 2014. Fan-boys were like keyboard-tapping street gangs.
Lions sleep a lot; this is true. But, when the temperature is well above 100 degrees fahrenheit and just about 0 humidity... I would be sleeping in the shade too.
I'm a slow learner, but I try my best to avoid conflicts with fan-boys.
Lions really seem to be more "lazy" than other felids, but I dont see anything wrong with that. Among people it is considered bad to sleep a lot and to be lazy, but thats just anthropomorphism. Lions behaviour has its reasons and they are just as active as they need to be.
(12-29-2018, 05:31 PM)Shadow Wrote: Animal intelligence is of course interesting issue, I think that everyone are interested about it in some level. Same thing as with so many other features, who runs fastest, who jumps longest, who is strongest.... people are always interested and why not, nothing bad to be curious :) For hunters it has been quite important to know/understand many of these things in past. I mean especially in times when hunting was essential for surviving and also of course to know, how to be not hunted by predators.
So I don´t see anything wrong in this kind of curiosity as long as people can maintain objectivity and behave with manners while discussing. Everyone have some favorite animals, but sometimes results can show things which are not what wanting to see. There is always discussions and opinions, but there is also research and testing like now here was in this study by Borrago and Gaines. It is ok to point out some issues which feel questionable, but there is other side of coin too. Even though there were smaller groups of leopards and tigers tested, it doesn´t change the fact, that lions did good. Their results were such, that not easy to do better, at least not significantly, if other results give even a hint what comes to leopards and tigers.
For me particularly innovation and persistence tests are very interesting, many people are familiar with that fact, that some animals learn to open doors and many other things. So this kind of information about animals has many times also real meaning in some things. Like how a dog can sit on something what you are looking for if it happens to like it too. So you might try to find something and dog just sits there and is waiting, that you leave the room :) Never trust to them!!!! There has been research and tests where that kind of behavior has been observed in dogs :)
That Vonk - Leese study was also interesting. It is good to have original reports so, that everyone can read themselves too instead of some short quotes. Quotes are good when original document is there too to check things, but if only some quotes, many times something relevant is missing. If someone knows more of these studies and where original documents can be found at least I am interested to see and read those. No matter what animals has best results :)
Btw, those birds in some tests, just astonishing, really.
Imagine 2 people: Mr. A and Mr. B., colleagues at work. You give them you give them a puzzle to solve. Mr. A did it better. But their boss says that he considers Mr. B to be more intelligent.
(12-29-2018, 05:31 PM)Shadow Wrote: Animal intelligence is of course interesting issue, I think that everyone are interested about it in some level. Same thing as with so many other features, who runs fastest, who jumps longest, who is strongest.... people are always interested and why not, nothing bad to be curious :) For hunters it has been quite important to know/understand many of these things in past. I mean especially in times when hunting was essential for surviving and also of course to know, how to be not hunted by predators.
So I don´t see anything wrong in this kind of curiosity as long as people can maintain objectivity and behave with manners while discussing. Everyone have some favorite animals, but sometimes results can show things which are not what wanting to see. There is always discussions and opinions, but there is also research and testing like now here was in this study by Borrago and Gaines. It is ok to point out some issues which feel questionable, but there is other side of coin too. Even though there were smaller groups of leopards and tigers tested, it doesn´t change the fact, that lions did good. Their results were such, that not easy to do better, at least not significantly, if other results give even a hint what comes to leopards and tigers.
For me particularly innovation and persistence tests are very interesting, many people are familiar with that fact, that some animals learn to open doors and many other things. So this kind of information about animals has many times also real meaning in some things. Like how a dog can sit on something what you are looking for if it happens to like it too. So you might try to find something and dog just sits there and is waiting, that you leave the room :) Never trust to them!!!! There has been research and tests where that kind of behavior has been observed in dogs :)
That Vonk - Leese study was also interesting. It is good to have original reports so, that everyone can read themselves too instead of some short quotes. Quotes are good when original document is there too to check things, but if only some quotes, many times something relevant is missing. If someone knows more of these studies and where original documents can be found at least I am interested to see and read those. No matter what animals has best results :)
Btw, those birds in some tests, just astonishing, really.
Imagine 2 people: Mr. A and Mr. B., colleagues at work. You give them you give them a puzzle to solve. Mr. A did it better. But their boss says that he considers Mr. B to be more intelligent.
Not easy to decide which one is smarter...
That is why I respect research by scientists, who can be considered to be quite objective. Also telling what they are testing and what kind of conclusions they are making and why. Something else than debates between "fanboy armies"
(12-29-2018, 05:31 PM)Shadow Wrote: Animal intelligence is of course interesting issue, I think that everyone are interested about it in some level. Same thing as with so many other features, who runs fastest, who jumps longest, who is strongest.... people are always interested and why not, nothing bad to be curious :) For hunters it has been quite important to know/understand many of these things in past. I mean especially in times when hunting was essential for surviving and also of course to know, how to be not hunted by predators.
So I don´t see anything wrong in this kind of curiosity as long as people can maintain objectivity and behave with manners while discussing. Everyone have some favorite animals, but sometimes results can show things which are not what wanting to see. There is always discussions and opinions, but there is also research and testing like now here was in this study by Borrago and Gaines. It is ok to point out some issues which feel questionable, but there is other side of coin too. Even though there were smaller groups of leopards and tigers tested, it doesn´t change the fact, that lions did good. Their results were such, that not easy to do better, at least not significantly, if other results give even a hint what comes to leopards and tigers.
For me particularly innovation and persistence tests are very interesting, many people are familiar with that fact, that some animals learn to open doors and many other things. So this kind of information about animals has many times also real meaning in some things. Like how a dog can sit on something what you are looking for if it happens to like it too. So you might try to find something and dog just sits there and is waiting, that you leave the room :) Never trust to them!!!! There has been research and tests where that kind of behavior has been observed in dogs :)
That Vonk - Leese study was also interesting. It is good to have original reports so, that everyone can read themselves too instead of some short quotes. Quotes are good when original document is there too to check things, but if only some quotes, many times something relevant is missing. If someone knows more of these studies and where original documents can be found at least I am interested to see and read those. No matter what animals has best results :)
Btw, those birds in some tests, just astonishing, really.
Imagine 2 people: Mr. A and Mr. B., colleagues at work. You give them you give them a puzzle to solve. Mr. A did it better. But their boss says that he considers Mr. B to be more intelligent.
Not easy to decide which one is smarter...
That is why I respect research by scientists, who can be considered to be quite objective. Also telling what they are testing and what kind of conclusions they are making and why. Something else than debates between "fanboy armies"
Honestly...I dont think that scientists, trainers or breeders are fanboys...:-) But ok, we can say that it is scientifically proven that lions are better at opening doors :-)
12-30-2018, 01:21 AM( This post was last modified: 12-30-2018, 01:23 AM by Shadow )
(12-30-2018, 01:14 AM)Amnon242 Wrote:
(12-30-2018, 12:57 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(12-30-2018, 12:55 AM)Amnon242 Wrote:
(12-29-2018, 05:31 PM)Shadow Wrote: Animal intelligence is of course interesting issue, I think that everyone are interested about it in some level. Same thing as with so many other features, who runs fastest, who jumps longest, who is strongest.... people are always interested and why not, nothing bad to be curious :) For hunters it has been quite important to know/understand many of these things in past. I mean especially in times when hunting was essential for surviving and also of course to know, how to be not hunted by predators.
So I don´t see anything wrong in this kind of curiosity as long as people can maintain objectivity and behave with manners while discussing. Everyone have some favorite animals, but sometimes results can show things which are not what wanting to see. There is always discussions and opinions, but there is also research and testing like now here was in this study by Borrago and Gaines. It is ok to point out some issues which feel questionable, but there is other side of coin too. Even though there were smaller groups of leopards and tigers tested, it doesn´t change the fact, that lions did good. Their results were such, that not easy to do better, at least not significantly, if other results give even a hint what comes to leopards and tigers.
For me particularly innovation and persistence tests are very interesting, many people are familiar with that fact, that some animals learn to open doors and many other things. So this kind of information about animals has many times also real meaning in some things. Like how a dog can sit on something what you are looking for if it happens to like it too. So you might try to find something and dog just sits there and is waiting, that you leave the room :) Never trust to them!!!! There has been research and tests where that kind of behavior has been observed in dogs :)
That Vonk - Leese study was also interesting. It is good to have original reports so, that everyone can read themselves too instead of some short quotes. Quotes are good when original document is there too to check things, but if only some quotes, many times something relevant is missing. If someone knows more of these studies and where original documents can be found at least I am interested to see and read those. No matter what animals has best results :)
Btw, those birds in some tests, just astonishing, really.
Imagine 2 people: Mr. A and Mr. B., colleagues at work. You give them you give them a puzzle to solve. Mr. A did it better. But their boss says that he considers Mr. B to be more intelligent.
Not easy to decide which one is smarter...
That is why I respect research by scientists, who can be considered to be quite objective. Also telling what they are testing and what kind of conclusions they are making and why. Something else than debates between "fanboy armies"
Honestly...I dont think that scientists, trainers or breeders are fanboys...:-) But ok, we can say that it is scientifically proven that lions are better at opening doors :-)
This is not a simple question of course But without testing it is difficult to get some answers. For some that test might prove, that lions are good door openers, to some something else. For me it showed, that lions can be more intelligent, than many have thought and I wait with interest if in future there is more research. If there is no comparable tests and research, all what we have are endless nonsense debates
The following 1 user Likes Shadow's post:1 user Likes Shadow's post • Spalea
(12-29-2018, 03:33 PM)brotherbear Wrote: Perhaps for survival, some of the smaller cats are smarter. I'm thinking cougar and leopard being smart cats. Both are excellent hunters and survivors in multiple environments.
Yes, agree with you, I have been considering for a long time that leopards were the smartest felids. Now, by reading some accounts about the tiger's intelligence I don't know more.
When I note there are very few of leopards trainers in the circus, this is already a good point for this felid...
(12-29-2018, 05:31 PM)Shadow Wrote: Animal intelligence is of course interesting issue, I think that everyone are interested about it in some level. Same thing as with so many other features, who runs fastest, who jumps longest, who is strongest.... people are always interested and why not, nothing bad to be curious :) For hunters it has been quite important to know/understand many of these things in past. I mean especially in times when hunting was essential for surviving and also of course to know, how to be not hunted by predators.
So I don´t see anything wrong in this kind of curiosity as long as people can maintain objectivity and behave with manners while discussing. Everyone have some favorite animals, but sometimes results can show things which are not what wanting to see. There is always discussions and opinions, but there is also research and testing like now here was in this study by Borrago and Gaines. It is ok to point out some issues which feel questionable, but there is other side of coin too. Even though there were smaller groups of leopards and tigers tested, it doesn´t change the fact, that lions did good. Their results were such, that not easy to do better, at least not significantly, if other results give even a hint what comes to leopards and tigers.
For me particularly innovation and persistence tests are very interesting, many people are familiar with that fact, that some animals learn to open doors and many other things. So this kind of information about animals has many times also real meaning in some things. Like how a dog can sit on something what you are looking for if it happens to like it too. So you might try to find something and dog just sits there and is waiting, that you leave the room :) Never trust to them!!!! There has been research and tests where that kind of behavior has been observed in dogs :)
That Vonk - Leese study was also interesting. It is good to have original reports so, that everyone can read themselves too instead of some short quotes. Quotes are good when original document is there too to check things, but if only some quotes, many times something relevant is missing. If someone knows more of these studies and where original documents can be found at least I am interested to see and read those. No matter what animals has best results :)
Btw, those birds in some tests, just astonishing, really.
Imagine 2 people: Mr. A and Mr. B., colleagues at work. You give them you give them a puzzle to solve. Mr. A did it better. But their boss says that he considers Mr. B to be more intelligent.
Not easy to decide which one is smarter...
That is why I respect research by scientists, who can be considered to be quite objective. Also telling what they are testing and what kind of conclusions they are making and why. Something else than debates between "fanboy armies"
Honestly...I dont think that scientists, trainers or breeders are fanboys...:-) But ok, we can say that it is scientifically proven that lions are better at opening doors :-)
This is not an simple question of course But without testing it is difficult to get some answers. For some that test might prove, that lions are good door openers, to some something else. For me it showed, that lions can be more intelligent, than many have thought and I wait with interest if in future there is more research. If there is no comparable tests and research, all what we have are endless nonsense debates
Hm...I saw the video...well, what to say... :-) : "scientific" study is certainly not a dogma, especially nowadays when prizes are awarded for the most ridiculous research...anaway, it would be an interesting debate on the topic of research funding, the activities that scientists have to report and the real value of their work results.
Anyway, if we talk about scientists, I can give you what V. Mazak wrote: "Tiger - at least according to Professor Hemmer and other researchers - shows the highest degree of intelligence of all felids and is one of the most intelligent predators" (V. Mazak: Velke kocky a gepardi - Big Cats and Cheetahs).
But once again: I always keep saying, that tigers and lions are equally intelligent, they could have just somehwat different set of mental abilities.
(12-29-2018, 05:31 PM)Shadow Wrote: Animal intelligence is of course interesting issue, I think that everyone are interested about it in some level. Same thing as with so many other features, who runs fastest, who jumps longest, who is strongest.... people are always interested and why not, nothing bad to be curious :) For hunters it has been quite important to know/understand many of these things in past. I mean especially in times when hunting was essential for surviving and also of course to know, how to be not hunted by predators.
So I don´t see anything wrong in this kind of curiosity as long as people can maintain objectivity and behave with manners while discussing. Everyone have some favorite animals, but sometimes results can show things which are not what wanting to see. There is always discussions and opinions, but there is also research and testing like now here was in this study by Borrago and Gaines. It is ok to point out some issues which feel questionable, but there is other side of coin too. Even though there were smaller groups of leopards and tigers tested, it doesn´t change the fact, that lions did good. Their results were such, that not easy to do better, at least not significantly, if other results give even a hint what comes to leopards and tigers.
For me particularly innovation and persistence tests are very interesting, many people are familiar with that fact, that some animals learn to open doors and many other things. So this kind of information about animals has many times also real meaning in some things. Like how a dog can sit on something what you are looking for if it happens to like it too. So you might try to find something and dog just sits there and is waiting, that you leave the room :) Never trust to them!!!! There has been research and tests where that kind of behavior has been observed in dogs :)
That Vonk - Leese study was also interesting. It is good to have original reports so, that everyone can read themselves too instead of some short quotes. Quotes are good when original document is there too to check things, but if only some quotes, many times something relevant is missing. If someone knows more of these studies and where original documents can be found at least I am interested to see and read those. No matter what animals has best results :)
Btw, those birds in some tests, just astonishing, really.
Imagine 2 people: Mr. A and Mr. B., colleagues at work. You give them you give them a puzzle to solve. Mr. A did it better. But their boss says that he considers Mr. B to be more intelligent.
Not easy to decide which one is smarter...
That is why I respect research by scientists, who can be considered to be quite objective. Also telling what they are testing and what kind of conclusions they are making and why. Something else than debates between "fanboy armies"
Honestly...I dont think that scientists, trainers or breeders are fanboys...:-) But ok, we can say that it is scientifically proven that lions are better at opening doors :-)
This is not an simple question of course But without testing it is difficult to get some answers. For some that test might prove, that lions are good door openers, to some something else. For me it showed, that lions can be more intelligent, than many have thought and I wait with interest if in future there is more research. If there is no comparable tests and research, all what we have are endless nonsense debates
Hm...I saw the video...well, what to say... :-) : "scientific" study is certainly not a dogma, especially nowadays when prizes are awarded for the most ridiculous research...anaway, it would be an interesting debate on the topic of research funding, the activities that scientists have to report and the real value of their work results.
Anyway, if we talk about scientists, I can give you what V. Mazak wrote: "Tiger - at least according to Professor Hemmer and other researchers - shows the highest degree of intelligence of all felids and is one of the most intelligent predators" (V. Mazak: Velke kocky a gepardi - Big Cats and Cheetahs).
But once again: I always keep saying, that tigers and lions are equally intelligent, they could have just somehwat different set of mental abilities.
Yes that video was from a quite simple test. That one which was in photos was more interesting. It would be nice to see videos about it too. Then again it was interesting also, what came to learning by observing what other animals did. It is of course easy to ignore any research based on one detail if wanting to do so. We are all free to make our own conclusions naturally. And yes, I know what is said about tigers, I have no doubt, that tigers are smart in many ways. Some people then praise how adaptive hunter lion is etc.
But at this point, unless someone is able to give good reasoning, I don´t see any reason to doubt, that Borrego and Gaines did objective tests and this time hyenas and lions had good results. I hope, that in future there is more research and from different researcher groups to be able to make more conclusions. Now it is quite early, I think and as I have said before, at least I don´t feel, that there is enough information to make big conclusions. But I don´t see any reason to ignore research either if not able to give good reasoning.
I do not ignore this research (as I wrote in my first post), but lets not overstate its weight :-) Ok I admit that I find this research somewhat amusing (sorry). And if it was a contest of semi-wild lions and captive tigers, then Im not surprised that lions won :-)
(12-30-2018, 01:58 AM)Amnon242 Wrote: I do not ignore this research (as I wrote in my first post), but lets not overstate its weight :-) Ok I admit that I find this research somewhat amusing (sorry). And if it was a contest of semi-wild lions and captive tigers, then Im not surprised that lions won :-)
I don´t think, that anyone is overstating it´s weight. I haven´t seen anything like that here. And I don´t mind, that you find it amusing, I find this whole conversation in same way :) I don´t know if these lions were semi-wild or not, there was said, that captive. But maybe some lions have been in better conditions then, not in cages at least(?).
Intelligence of the big cats...
There has been research and tests where that kind of behavior has been observed in dogs :) 
