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Pckts · 04-24-2020, 05:28 AM

(04-24-2020, 05:17 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 03:52 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote: @Pckts

Here I use the computer all the time, for me cellphone is not as good the screen is too tiny and on the computer I am more comfortable.

I found a website to copy the image locations I will post bellow, hope it works. Thank you for the tip anyways.

Yeah I remember when you told me Paulo stated Brawlin is larger than Adriano and I saw your posts on how impressive Hunter female is too but she gets overshadowed by the giants from the north haha, I wouldn't be surprised if Hero is above 130kg he has an impressive frame too bad he is aging already these dudes gotta be weighed before its too late. But this Brawlin male I am very curious to know his size if Paulo said he is that big he got to be weighed before its too late, theres also the male with the Scythe on the forehead he is very large too I'd guess he is above 120kg any day of the week and some from the south I am curios to see the size is Colombiano, the brothers Oreia and Grandão, Joker and other males from that area, we actually want all of them to be measured haha. There's one male that I really wanted to know his size was Xavier male, too bad he ventured north.

These current jaguars in terms of size would make a far heavier table compared to those from the tables I posted from 2000-2009.

What do you think about Mick in size? I don't find him that large but his head compared to the body is what impresses me the most just like Xavier male. they look so unique.

If you return to the Pantanal would you consider visiting the southern section on a safari with Onçafari project?

@OncaAtrox

These are the ''flowers'' I meant.

here's how I identify them.

as you can see on Mick's right side you see the single spot with the rossetes around it and looking over it all at once it looks like a flower, it all happens cause of that single spot in the middle.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Mick on left side here he got 2 flowers.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Heres the Scythe I see on this large male forehead

*This image is copyright of its original author

Geoff male - note theres one single spot right in the middle as well which can also ''turn into flower'' for another clear identification.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
Xando male the way I see ( with an ''L'' on his forehead ) but other people see an ''U''.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Hero male with a clear ''V'' on his forehead

*This image is copyright of its original author

Hero male from the left , you see his spots in the middle is kinda unique there's 2.

*This image is copyright of its original author

from the right its kinda unique too. ( that one lying is Hunter )

*This image is copyright of its original author

Adriano as you can see his face is very unique with a ''/'' on the forehead, the patterns over his body and around his eye all the way to his forehead on both sides, his left eye is a bit smaller due to fights (today it looks even worse) and his front limbs is covered with a huge stripe it also occurs to his other front limb.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Juru despite the flowers he got a ''flying bird'' shaped pattern on his forehead.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Geoff vs Juru ( both got flowers on both sides )

*This image is copyright of its original author

heres the Logo of Jaguar Identification project thats Patrícia female and on her forehead pattern as you can see it looks like a ''Bat''

*This image is copyright of its original author

Another one with an ''L'' on forehead, there's a ''W'' right bellow.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Medrosa female

*This image is copyright of its original author

this one has a butterfly on its forehead with one spot on ''each wing''.

*This image is copyright of its original author

This poor battled one looks so unique there's no need for noting differences his left ear is gone he is all battled scarred he is definitely a warrior, this jaguar is the proof that jaguars go all out when they really have to fight and they won't hold back at all.

*This image is copyright of its original author

There are others too but from these ones I think you already have a clue on what I mean.

There's no limits to imagination.

I understand that tracking jaguars is expensive so I see why these organizations don't do it more often, but I wish they did, as you said big toms like Hero are now past their prime so they start losing muscle mass and overall weight, leaving us guessing how much it probably measured in its prime. Jaguars are incredibly understudied and we need new data on their measurements to supplement the Almeida collections we have. I'm also impatient for the Aurora jaguars to be weighed, my estimations are that males such as Pajarote, Tote (past his prime and probably deceased), Faculto and Librao are above or close to be 120 kg.

You must understand that measuring and weighing these cats does nothing for them in terms of conservation.
Even radio collaring them doesn't really serve a purpose in terms of conservation, it helps understand their movement patterns but it's fairly simple, corridors need to be maintained so new Gene's can come and go. Some would argue that radio collaring and capturing does more harm than good with the deaths and poaching attached to them.

In terms of capturing, Panthera still has a few captures available in the north, they only get licensed to capture so many cats. But for whatever reason they haven't captured many lately.

Balam · 04-24-2020, 05:33 AM

(04-24-2020, 05:28 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:17 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 03:52 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote: @Pckts

Here I use the computer all the time, for me cellphone is not as good the screen is too tiny and on the computer I am more comfortable.

I found a website to copy the image locations I will post bellow, hope it works. Thank you for the tip anyways.

Yeah I remember when you told me Paulo stated Brawlin is larger than Adriano and I saw your posts on how impressive Hunter female is too but she gets overshadowed by the giants from the north haha, I wouldn't be surprised if Hero is above 130kg he has an impressive frame too bad he is aging already these dudes gotta be weighed before its too late. But this Brawlin male I am very curious to know his size if Paulo said he is that big he got to be weighed before its too late, theres also the male with the Scythe on the forehead he is very large too I'd guess he is above 120kg any day of the week and some from the south I am curios to see the size is Colombiano, the brothers Oreia and Grandão, Joker and other males from that area, we actually want all of them to be measured haha. There's one male that I really wanted to know his size was Xavier male, too bad he ventured north.

These current jaguars in terms of size would make a far heavier table compared to those from the tables I posted from 2000-2009.

What do you think about Mick in size? I don't find him that large but his head compared to the body is what impresses me the most just like Xavier male. they look so unique.

If you return to the Pantanal would you consider visiting the southern section on a safari with Onçafari project?

@OncaAtrox

These are the ''flowers'' I meant.

here's how I identify them.

as you can see on Mick's right side you see the single spot with the rossetes around it and looking over it all at once it looks like a flower, it all happens cause of that single spot in the middle.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Mick on left side here he got 2 flowers.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Heres the Scythe I see on this large male forehead

*This image is copyright of its original author

Geoff male - note theres one single spot right in the middle as well which can also ''turn into flower'' for another clear identification.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
Xando male the way I see ( with an ''L'' on his forehead ) but other people see an ''U''.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Hero male with a clear ''V'' on his forehead

*This image is copyright of its original author

Hero male from the left , you see his spots in the middle is kinda unique there's 2.

*This image is copyright of its original author

from the right its kinda unique too. ( that one lying is Hunter )

*This image is copyright of its original author

Adriano as you can see his face is very unique with a ''/'' on the forehead, the patterns over his body and around his eye all the way to his forehead on both sides, his left eye is a bit smaller due to fights (today it looks even worse) and his front limbs is covered with a huge stripe it also occurs to his other front limb.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Juru despite the flowers he got a ''flying bird'' shaped pattern on his forehead.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Geoff vs Juru ( both got flowers on both sides )

*This image is copyright of its original author

heres the Logo of Jaguar Identification project thats Patrícia female and on her forehead pattern as you can see it looks like a ''Bat''

*This image is copyright of its original author

Another one with an ''L'' on forehead, there's a ''W'' right bellow.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Medrosa female

*This image is copyright of its original author

this one has a butterfly on its forehead with one spot on ''each wing''.

*This image is copyright of its original author

This poor battled one looks so unique there's no need for noting differences his left ear is gone he is all battled scarred he is definitely a warrior, this jaguar is the proof that jaguars go all out when they really have to fight and they won't hold back at all.

*This image is copyright of its original author

There are others too but from these ones I think you already have a clue on what I mean.

There's no limits to imagination.

I understand that tracking jaguars is expensive so I see why these organizations don't do it more often, but I wish they did, as you said big toms like Hero are now past their prime so they start losing muscle mass and overall weight, leaving us guessing how much it probably measured in its prime. Jaguars are incredibly understudied and we need new data on their measurements to supplement the Almeida collections we have. I'm also impatient for the Aurora jaguars to be weighed, my estimations are that males such as Pajarote, Tote (past his prime and probably deceased), Faculto and Librao are above or close to be 120 kg.

You must understand that measuring and weighing these cats does nothing for them in terms of conservation.
Even radio collaring them doesn't really serve a purpose in terms of conservation, it helps understand their movement patterns but it's fairly simple, corridors need to be maintained so new Gene's can come and go. Some would argue that radio collaring and capturing does more harm than good with the deaths and poaching attached to them.

In terms of capturing, Panthera still has a few captures available in the north, they only get licensed to capture so many cats. But for whatever reason they haven't captured many lately.

Taking their measurements are key aspects of understanding their biology and you can't deny that compared to leopards or lions they are much less tracked and our information on their sizes is scarce. I'm sure these biologists want to track them just as much but as I said that takes resources from them so I don't blame them if they don't see the urgency. Still, I'm holding my hopes we'll get more weights and measurements in the future to increase our data.

Pckts · 04-24-2020, 06:33 AM

(04-24-2020, 05:33 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:28 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:17 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 03:52 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote: @Pckts

Here I use the computer all the time, for me cellphone is not as good the screen is too tiny and on the computer I am more comfortable.

I found a website to copy the image locations I will post bellow, hope it works. Thank you for the tip anyways.

Yeah I remember when you told me Paulo stated Brawlin is larger than Adriano and I saw your posts on how impressive Hunter female is too but she gets overshadowed by the giants from the north haha, I wouldn't be surprised if Hero is above 130kg he has an impressive frame too bad he is aging already these dudes gotta be weighed before its too late. But this Brawlin male I am very curious to know his size if Paulo said he is that big he got to be weighed before its too late, theres also the male with the Scythe on the forehead he is very large too I'd guess he is above 120kg any day of the week and some from the south I am curios to see the size is Colombiano, the brothers Oreia and Grandão, Joker and other males from that area, we actually want all of them to be measured haha. There's one male that I really wanted to know his size was Xavier male, too bad he ventured north.

These current jaguars in terms of size would make a far heavier table compared to those from the tables I posted from 2000-2009.

What do you think about Mick in size? I don't find him that large but his head compared to the body is what impresses me the most just like Xavier male. they look so unique.

If you return to the Pantanal would you consider visiting the southern section on a safari with Onçafari project?

@OncaAtrox

These are the ''flowers'' I meant.

here's how I identify them.

as you can see on Mick's right side you see the single spot with the rossetes around it and looking over it all at once it looks like a flower, it all happens cause of that single spot in the middle.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Mick on left side here he got 2 flowers.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Heres the Scythe I see on this large male forehead

*This image is copyright of its original author

Geoff male - note theres one single spot right in the middle as well which can also ''turn into flower'' for another clear identification.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
Xando male the way I see ( with an ''L'' on his forehead ) but other people see an ''U''.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Hero male with a clear ''V'' on his forehead

*This image is copyright of its original author

Hero male from the left , you see his spots in the middle is kinda unique there's 2.

*This image is copyright of its original author

from the right its kinda unique too. ( that one lying is Hunter )

*This image is copyright of its original author

Adriano as you can see his face is very unique with a ''/'' on the forehead, the patterns over his body and around his eye all the way to his forehead on both sides, his left eye is a bit smaller due to fights (today it looks even worse) and his front limbs is covered with a huge stripe it also occurs to his other front limb.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Juru despite the flowers he got a ''flying bird'' shaped pattern on his forehead.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Geoff vs Juru ( both got flowers on both sides )

*This image is copyright of its original author

heres the Logo of Jaguar Identification project thats Patrícia female and on her forehead pattern as you can see it looks like a ''Bat''

*This image is copyright of its original author

Another one with an ''L'' on forehead, there's a ''W'' right bellow.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Medrosa female

*This image is copyright of its original author

this one has a butterfly on its forehead with one spot on ''each wing''.

*This image is copyright of its original author

This poor battled one looks so unique there's no need for noting differences his left ear is gone he is all battled scarred he is definitely a warrior, this jaguar is the proof that jaguars go all out when they really have to fight and they won't hold back at all.

*This image is copyright of its original author

There are others too but from these ones I think you already have a clue on what I mean.

There's no limits to imagination.

I understand that tracking jaguars is expensive so I see why these organizations don't do it more often, but I wish they did, as you said big toms like Hero are now past their prime so they start losing muscle mass and overall weight, leaving us guessing how much it probably measured in its prime. Jaguars are incredibly understudied and we need new data on their measurements to supplement the Almeida collections we have. I'm also impatient for the Aurora jaguars to be weighed, my estimations are that males such as Pajarote, Tote (past his prime and probably deceased), Faculto and Librao are above or close to be 120 kg.

You must understand that measuring and weighing these cats does nothing for them in terms of conservation.
Even radio collaring them doesn't really serve a purpose in terms of conservation, it helps understand their movement patterns but it's fairly simple, corridors need to be maintained so new Gene's can come and go. Some would argue that radio collaring and capturing does more harm than good with the deaths and poaching attached to them.

In terms of capturing, Panthera still has a few captures available in the north, they only get licensed to capture so many cats. But for whatever reason they haven't captured many lately.

Taking their measurements are key aspects of understanding their biology and you can't deny that compared to leopards or lions they are much less tracked and our information on their sizes is scarce. I'm sure these biologists want to track them just as much but as I said that takes resources from them so I don't blame them if they don't see the urgency. Still, I'm holding my hopes we'll get more weights and measurements in the future to increase our data.

But what good does understanding their biology do for conserving them?
Human curiosity makes us want to know as much as possible and its gotten us this far but it's also lead to the destruction of most of the natural world and extinction of many animals. Of course a biologist or zoologist will want to research these animals, it's their lifes purpose but do these animals need to be researched to survive?

Balam · 04-24-2020, 08:06 AM

(04-24-2020, 06:33 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:33 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:28 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:17 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 03:52 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote: @Pckts

Here I use the computer all the time, for me cellphone is not as good the screen is too tiny and on the computer I am more comfortable.

I found a website to copy the image locations I will post bellow, hope it works. Thank you for the tip anyways.

Yeah I remember when you told me Paulo stated Brawlin is larger than Adriano and I saw your posts on how impressive Hunter female is too but she gets overshadowed by the giants from the north haha, I wouldn't be surprised if Hero is above 130kg he has an impressive frame too bad he is aging already these dudes gotta be weighed before its too late. But this Brawlin male I am very curious to know his size if Paulo said he is that big he got to be weighed before its too late, theres also the male with the Scythe on the forehead he is very large too I'd guess he is above 120kg any day of the week and some from the south I am curios to see the size is Colombiano, the brothers Oreia and Grandão, Joker and other males from that area, we actually want all of them to be measured haha. There's one male that I really wanted to know his size was Xavier male, too bad he ventured north.

These current jaguars in terms of size would make a far heavier table compared to those from the tables I posted from 2000-2009.

What do you think about Mick in size? I don't find him that large but his head compared to the body is what impresses me the most just like Xavier male. they look so unique.

If you return to the Pantanal would you consider visiting the southern section on a safari with Onçafari project?

@OncaAtrox

These are the ''flowers'' I meant.

here's how I identify them.

as you can see on Mick's right side you see the single spot with the rossetes around it and looking over it all at once it looks like a flower, it all happens cause of that single spot in the middle.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Mick on left side here he got 2 flowers.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Heres the Scythe I see on this large male forehead

*This image is copyright of its original author

Geoff male - note theres one single spot right in the middle as well which can also ''turn into flower'' for another clear identification.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
Xando male the way I see ( with an ''L'' on his forehead ) but other people see an ''U''.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Hero male with a clear ''V'' on his forehead

*This image is copyright of its original author

Hero male from the left , you see his spots in the middle is kinda unique there's 2.

*This image is copyright of its original author

from the right its kinda unique too. ( that one lying is Hunter )

*This image is copyright of its original author

Adriano as you can see his face is very unique with a ''/'' on the forehead, the patterns over his body and around his eye all the way to his forehead on both sides, his left eye is a bit smaller due to fights (today it looks even worse) and his front limbs is covered with a huge stripe it also occurs to his other front limb.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Juru despite the flowers he got a ''flying bird'' shaped pattern on his forehead.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Geoff vs Juru ( both got flowers on both sides )

*This image is copyright of its original author

heres the Logo of Jaguar Identification project thats Patrícia female and on her forehead pattern as you can see it looks like a ''Bat''

*This image is copyright of its original author

Another one with an ''L'' on forehead, there's a ''W'' right bellow.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Medrosa female

*This image is copyright of its original author

this one has a butterfly on its forehead with one spot on ''each wing''.

*This image is copyright of its original author

This poor battled one looks so unique there's no need for noting differences his left ear is gone he is all battled scarred he is definitely a warrior, this jaguar is the proof that jaguars go all out when they really have to fight and they won't hold back at all.

*This image is copyright of its original author

There are others too but from these ones I think you already have a clue on what I mean.

There's no limits to imagination.

I understand that tracking jaguars is expensive so I see why these organizations don't do it more often, but I wish they did, as you said big toms like Hero are now past their prime so they start losing muscle mass and overall weight, leaving us guessing how much it probably measured in its prime. Jaguars are incredibly understudied and we need new data on their measurements to supplement the Almeida collections we have. I'm also impatient for the Aurora jaguars to be weighed, my estimations are that males such as Pajarote, Tote (past his prime and probably deceased), Faculto and Librao are above or close to be 120 kg.

You must understand that measuring and weighing these cats does nothing for them in terms of conservation.
Even radio collaring them doesn't really serve a purpose in terms of conservation, it helps understand their movement patterns but it's fairly simple, corridors need to be maintained so new Gene's can come and go. Some would argue that radio collaring and capturing does more harm than good with the deaths and poaching attached to them.

In terms of capturing, Panthera still has a few captures available in the north, they only get licensed to capture so many cats. But for whatever reason they haven't captured many lately.

Taking their measurements are key aspects of understanding their biology and you can't deny that compared to leopards or lions they are much less tracked and our information on their sizes is scarce. I'm sure these biologists want to track them just as much but as I said that takes resources from them so I don't blame them if they don't see the urgency. Still, I'm holding my hopes we'll get more weights and measurements in the future to increase our data.

But what good does understanding their biology do for conserving them?
Human curiosity makes us want to know as much as possible and its gotten us this far but it's also lead to the destruction of most of the natural world and extinction of many animals. Of course a biologist or zoologist will want to research these animals, it's their lifes purpose but do these animals need to be researched to survive?

That's not the point, all research is not supposed to be done entirely to find ways to preserve the species, sometimes biologists just want to collect data, more data allows us to understand them better and is more conclusive than guessing their biology/morphology. Plus there's no harm in actually tracking their measurements, the whole reason forums like this exist is to discuss those findings and debate them.

Pckts · 04-24-2020, 05:43 PM

(04-24-2020, 08:06 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 06:33 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:33 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:28 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:17 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 03:52 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote: @Pckts

Here I use the computer all the time, for me cellphone is not as good the screen is too tiny and on the computer I am more comfortable.

I found a website to copy the image locations I will post bellow, hope it works. Thank you for the tip anyways.

Yeah I remember when you told me Paulo stated Brawlin is larger than Adriano and I saw your posts on how impressive Hunter female is too but she gets overshadowed by the giants from the north haha, I wouldn't be surprised if Hero is above 130kg he has an impressive frame too bad he is aging already these dudes gotta be weighed before its too late. But this Brawlin male I am very curious to know his size if Paulo said he is that big he got to be weighed before its too late, theres also the male with the Scythe on the forehead he is very large too I'd guess he is above 120kg any day of the week and some from the south I am curios to see the size is Colombiano, the brothers Oreia and Grandão, Joker and other males from that area, we actually want all of them to be measured haha. There's one male that I really wanted to know his size was Xavier male, too bad he ventured north.

These current jaguars in terms of size would make a far heavier table compared to those from the tables I posted from 2000-2009.

What do you think about Mick in size? I don't find him that large but his head compared to the body is what impresses me the most just like Xavier male. they look so unique.

If you return to the Pantanal would you consider visiting the southern section on a safari with Onçafari project?

@OncaAtrox

These are the ''flowers'' I meant.

here's how I identify them.

as you can see on Mick's right side you see the single spot with the rossetes around it and looking over it all at once it looks like a flower, it all happens cause of that single spot in the middle.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Mick on left side here he got 2 flowers.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Heres the Scythe I see on this large male forehead

*This image is copyright of its original author

Geoff male - note theres one single spot right in the middle as well which can also ''turn into flower'' for another clear identification.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
Xando male the way I see ( with an ''L'' on his forehead ) but other people see an ''U''.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Hero male with a clear ''V'' on his forehead

*This image is copyright of its original author

Hero male from the left , you see his spots in the middle is kinda unique there's 2.

*This image is copyright of its original author

from the right its kinda unique too. ( that one lying is Hunter )

*This image is copyright of its original author

Adriano as you can see his face is very unique with a ''/'' on the forehead, the patterns over his body and around his eye all the way to his forehead on both sides, his left eye is a bit smaller due to fights (today it looks even worse) and his front limbs is covered with a huge stripe it also occurs to his other front limb.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Juru despite the flowers he got a ''flying bird'' shaped pattern on his forehead.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Geoff vs Juru ( both got flowers on both sides )

*This image is copyright of its original author

heres the Logo of Jaguar Identification project thats Patrícia female and on her forehead pattern as you can see it looks like a ''Bat''

*This image is copyright of its original author

Another one with an ''L'' on forehead, there's a ''W'' right bellow.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Medrosa female

*This image is copyright of its original author

this one has a butterfly on its forehead with one spot on ''each wing''.

*This image is copyright of its original author

This poor battled one looks so unique there's no need for noting differences his left ear is gone he is all battled scarred he is definitely a warrior, this jaguar is the proof that jaguars go all out when they really have to fight and they won't hold back at all.

*This image is copyright of its original author

There are others too but from these ones I think you already have a clue on what I mean.

There's no limits to imagination.

I understand that tracking jaguars is expensive so I see why these organizations don't do it more often, but I wish they did, as you said big toms like Hero are now past their prime so they start losing muscle mass and overall weight, leaving us guessing how much it probably measured in its prime. Jaguars are incredibly understudied and we need new data on their measurements to supplement the Almeida collections we have. I'm also impatient for the Aurora jaguars to be weighed, my estimations are that males such as Pajarote, Tote (past his prime and probably deceased), Faculto and Librao are above or close to be 120 kg.

You must understand that measuring and weighing these cats does nothing for them in terms of conservation.
Even radio collaring them doesn't really serve a purpose in terms of conservation, it helps understand their movement patterns but it's fairly simple, corridors need to be maintained so new Gene's can come and go. Some would argue that radio collaring and capturing does more harm than good with the deaths and poaching attached to them.

In terms of capturing, Panthera still has a few captures available in the north, they only get licensed to capture so many cats. But for whatever reason they haven't captured many lately.

Taking their measurements are key aspects of understanding their biology and you can't deny that compared to leopards or lions they are much less tracked and our information on their sizes is scarce. I'm sure these biologists want to track them just as much but as I said that takes resources from them so I don't blame them if they don't see the urgency. Still, I'm holding my hopes we'll get more weights and measurements in the future to increase our data.

But what good does understanding their biology do for conserving them?
Human curiosity makes us want to know as much as possible and its gotten us this far but it's also lead to the destruction of most of the natural world and extinction of many animals. Of course a biologist or zoologist will want to research these animals, it's their lifes purpose but do these animals need to be researched to survive?

That's not the point, all research is not supposed to be done entirely to find ways to preserve the species, sometimes biologists just want to collect data, more data allows us to understand them better and is more conclusive than guessing their biology/morphology. Plus there's no harm in actually tracking their measurements, the whole reason forums like this exist is to discuss those findings and debate them.

There are many forums, much of which dont care about sizes or vs outcomes

And there is actual harm in measuring them. Big cats have died in the capture process *anesthesia overdose* as well as becoming human aggressive afterwards and man killers.

Also, I received word back from Paulo on Heros size, he said that Hero isn't close to one of the largest Jaguars in the North.

Balam · 04-24-2020, 06:00 PM

(04-24-2020, 05:43 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 08:06 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 06:33 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:33 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:28 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:17 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 03:52 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote: @Pckts

Here I use the computer all the time, for me cellphone is not as good the screen is too tiny and on the computer I am more comfortable.

I found a website to copy the image locations I will post bellow, hope it works. Thank you for the tip anyways.

Yeah I remember when you told me Paulo stated Brawlin is larger than Adriano and I saw your posts on how impressive Hunter female is too but she gets overshadowed by the giants from the north haha, I wouldn't be surprised if Hero is above 130kg he has an impressive frame too bad he is aging already these dudes gotta be weighed before its too late. But this Brawlin male I am very curious to know his size if Paulo said he is that big he got to be weighed before its too late, theres also the male with the Scythe on the forehead he is very large too I'd guess he is above 120kg any day of the week and some from the south I am curios to see the size is Colombiano, the brothers Oreia and Grandão, Joker and other males from that area, we actually want all of them to be measured haha. There's one male that I really wanted to know his size was Xavier male, too bad he ventured north.

These current jaguars in terms of size would make a far heavier table compared to those from the tables I posted from 2000-2009.

What do you think about Mick in size? I don't find him that large but his head compared to the body is what impresses me the most just like Xavier male. they look so unique.

If you return to the Pantanal would you consider visiting the southern section on a safari with Onçafari project?

@OncaAtrox

These are the ''flowers'' I meant.

here's how I identify them.

as you can see on Mick's right side you see the single spot with the rossetes around it and looking over it all at once it looks like a flower, it all happens cause of that single spot in the middle.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Mick on left side here he got 2 flowers.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Heres the Scythe I see on this large male forehead

*This image is copyright of its original author

Geoff male - note theres one single spot right in the middle as well which can also ''turn into flower'' for another clear identification.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
Xando male the way I see ( with an ''L'' on his forehead ) but other people see an ''U''.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Hero male with a clear ''V'' on his forehead

*This image is copyright of its original author

Hero male from the left , you see his spots in the middle is kinda unique there's 2.

*This image is copyright of its original author

from the right its kinda unique too. ( that one lying is Hunter )

*This image is copyright of its original author

Adriano as you can see his face is very unique with a ''/'' on the forehead, the patterns over his body and around his eye all the way to his forehead on both sides, his left eye is a bit smaller due to fights (today it looks even worse) and his front limbs is covered with a huge stripe it also occurs to his other front limb.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Juru despite the flowers he got a ''flying bird'' shaped pattern on his forehead.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Geoff vs Juru ( both got flowers on both sides )

*This image is copyright of its original author

heres the Logo of Jaguar Identification project thats Patrícia female and on her forehead pattern as you can see it looks like a ''Bat''

*This image is copyright of its original author

Another one with an ''L'' on forehead, there's a ''W'' right bellow.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Medrosa female

*This image is copyright of its original author

this one has a butterfly on its forehead with one spot on ''each wing''.

*This image is copyright of its original author

This poor battled one looks so unique there's no need for noting differences his left ear is gone he is all battled scarred he is definitely a warrior, this jaguar is the proof that jaguars go all out when they really have to fight and they won't hold back at all.

*This image is copyright of its original author

There are others too but from these ones I think you already have a clue on what I mean.

There's no limits to imagination.

I understand that tracking jaguars is expensive so I see why these organizations don't do it more often, but I wish they did, as you said big toms like Hero are now past their prime so they start losing muscle mass and overall weight, leaving us guessing how much it probably measured in its prime. Jaguars are incredibly understudied and we need new data on their measurements to supplement the Almeida collections we have. I'm also impatient for the Aurora jaguars to be weighed, my estimations are that males such as Pajarote, Tote (past his prime and probably deceased), Faculto and Librao are above or close to be 120 kg.

You must understand that measuring and weighing these cats does nothing for them in terms of conservation.
Even radio collaring them doesn't really serve a purpose in terms of conservation, it helps understand their movement patterns but it's fairly simple, corridors need to be maintained so new Gene's can come and go. Some would argue that radio collaring and capturing does more harm than good with the deaths and poaching attached to them.

In terms of capturing, Panthera still has a few captures available in the north, they only get licensed to capture so many cats. But for whatever reason they haven't captured many lately.

Taking their measurements are key aspects of understanding their biology and you can't deny that compared to leopards or lions they are much less tracked and our information on their sizes is scarce. I'm sure these biologists want to track them just as much but as I said that takes resources from them so I don't blame them if they don't see the urgency. Still, I'm holding my hopes we'll get more weights and measurements in the future to increase our data.

But what good does understanding their biology do for conserving them?
Human curiosity makes us want to know as much as possible and its gotten us this far but it's also lead to the destruction of most of the natural world and extinction of many animals. Of course a biologist or zoologist will want to research these animals, it's their lifes purpose but do these animals need to be researched to survive?

That's not the point, all research is not supposed to be done entirely to find ways to preserve the species, sometimes biologists just want to collect data, more data allows us to understand them better and is more conclusive than guessing their biology/morphology. Plus there's no harm in actually tracking their measurements, the whole reason forums like this exist is to discuss those findings and debate them.
There are many forums, much of which dont care about sizes or vs outcomes

And there is actual harm in measuring them. Big cats have died in the capture process *anesthesia overdose* as well as becoming human aggressive afterwards and man killers.

Also, I received word back from Paulo on Heros size, he said that Hero isn't close to one of the largest Jaguars in the North.

But in this forum we do, that's why we have e threads about these same measurements, and getting the data from biologists who will take as much care as possible of the animal is certainly more ethical than relying on hunting records of hundreds of massacred animals. I don't get what your point has been for this whole rant.

Pckts · 04-24-2020, 06:06 PM

(04-24-2020, 06:00 PM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:43 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 08:06 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 06:33 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:33 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:28 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:17 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 03:52 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote: @Pckts

Here I use the computer all the time, for me cellphone is not as good the screen is too tiny and on the computer I am more comfortable.

I found a website to copy the image locations I will post bellow, hope it works. Thank you for the tip anyways.

Yeah I remember when you told me Paulo stated Brawlin is larger than Adriano and I saw your posts on how impressive Hunter female is too but she gets overshadowed by the giants from the north haha, I wouldn't be surprised if Hero is above 130kg he has an impressive frame too bad he is aging already these dudes gotta be weighed before its too late. But this Brawlin male I am very curious to know his size if Paulo said he is that big he got to be weighed before its too late, theres also the male with the Scythe on the forehead he is very large too I'd guess he is above 120kg any day of the week and some from the south I am curios to see the size is Colombiano, the brothers Oreia and Grandão, Joker and other males from that area, we actually want all of them to be measured haha. There's one male that I really wanted to know his size was Xavier male, too bad he ventured north.

These current jaguars in terms of size would make a far heavier table compared to those from the tables I posted from 2000-2009.

What do you think about Mick in size? I don't find him that large but his head compared to the body is what impresses me the most just like Xavier male. they look so unique.

If you return to the Pantanal would you consider visiting the southern section on a safari with Onçafari project?

@OncaAtrox

These are the ''flowers'' I meant.

here's how I identify them.

as you can see on Mick's right side you see the single spot with the rossetes around it and looking over it all at once it looks like a flower, it all happens cause of that single spot in the middle.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Mick on left side here he got 2 flowers.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Heres the Scythe I see on this large male forehead

*This image is copyright of its original author

Geoff male - note theres one single spot right in the middle as well which can also ''turn into flower'' for another clear identification.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
Xando male the way I see ( with an ''L'' on his forehead ) but other people see an ''U''.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Hero male with a clear ''V'' on his forehead

*This image is copyright of its original author

Hero male from the left , you see his spots in the middle is kinda unique there's 2.

*This image is copyright of its original author

from the right its kinda unique too. ( that one lying is Hunter )

*This image is copyright of its original author

Adriano as you can see his face is very unique with a ''/'' on the forehead, the patterns over his body and around his eye all the way to his forehead on both sides, his left eye is a bit smaller due to fights (today it looks even worse) and his front limbs is covered with a huge stripe it also occurs to his other front limb.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Juru despite the flowers he got a ''flying bird'' shaped pattern on his forehead.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Geoff vs Juru ( both got flowers on both sides )

*This image is copyright of its original author

heres the Logo of Jaguar Identification project thats Patrícia female and on her forehead pattern as you can see it looks like a ''Bat''

*This image is copyright of its original author

Another one with an ''L'' on forehead, there's a ''W'' right bellow.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Medrosa female

*This image is copyright of its original author

this one has a butterfly on its forehead with one spot on ''each wing''.

*This image is copyright of its original author

This poor battled one looks so unique there's no need for noting differences his left ear is gone he is all battled scarred he is definitely a warrior, this jaguar is the proof that jaguars go all out when they really have to fight and they won't hold back at all.

*This image is copyright of its original author

There are others too but from these ones I think you already have a clue on what I mean.

There's no limits to imagination.

I understand that tracking jaguars is expensive so I see why these organizations don't do it more often, but I wish they did, as you said big toms like Hero are now past their prime so they start losing muscle mass and overall weight, leaving us guessing how much it probably measured in its prime. Jaguars are incredibly understudied and we need new data on their measurements to supplement the Almeida collections we have. I'm also impatient for the Aurora jaguars to be weighed, my estimations are that males such as Pajarote, Tote (past his prime and probably deceased), Faculto and Librao are above or close to be 120 kg.

You must understand that measuring and weighing these cats does nothing for them in terms of conservation.
Even radio collaring them doesn't really serve a purpose in terms of conservation, it helps understand their movement patterns but it's fairly simple, corridors need to be maintained so new Gene's can come and go. Some would argue that radio collaring and capturing does more harm than good with the deaths and poaching attached to them.

In terms of capturing, Panthera still has a few captures available in the north, they only get licensed to capture so many cats. But for whatever reason they haven't captured many lately.

Taking their measurements are key aspects of understanding their biology and you can't deny that compared to leopards or lions they are much less tracked and our information on their sizes is scarce. I'm sure these biologists want to track them just as much but as I said that takes resources from them so I don't blame them if they don't see the urgency. Still, I'm holding my hopes we'll get more weights and measurements in the future to increase our data.

But what good does understanding their biology do for conserving them?
Human curiosity makes us want to know as much as possible and its gotten us this far but it's also lead to the destruction of most of the natural world and extinction of many animals. Of course a biologist or zoologist will want to research these animals, it's their lifes purpose but do these animals need to be researched to survive?

That's not the point, all research is not supposed to be done entirely to find ways to preserve the species, sometimes biologists just want to collect data, more data allows us to understand them better and is more conclusive than guessing their biology/morphology. Plus there's no harm in actually tracking their measurements, the whole reason forums like this exist is to discuss those findings and debate them.
There are many forums, much of which dont care about sizes or vs outcomes

And there is actual harm in measuring them. Big cats have died in the capture process *anesthesia overdose* as well as becoming human aggressive afterwards and man killers.

Also, I received word back from Paulo on Heros size, he said that Hero isn't close to one of the largest Jaguars in the North.

But in this forum we do, that's why we have e threads about these same measurements, and getting the data from biologists who will take as much care as possible of the animal is certainly more ethical than relying on hunting records of hundreds of massacred animals. I don't get what your point has been for this whole rant.

You want more measurements, I said that they dont necessarily serve a purpose, you said that is what forums are about and I said not all forums. You said no harm comes from tracking their measurements and I provided cases that proved otherwise.
Pretty straight forward, no?

Balam · 04-24-2020, 06:27 PM

(04-24-2020, 06:06 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 06:00 PM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:43 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 08:06 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 06:33 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:33 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:28 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:17 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 03:52 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote: @Pckts

Here I use the computer all the time, for me cellphone is not as good the screen is too tiny and on the computer I am more comfortable.

I found a website to copy the image locations I will post bellow, hope it works. Thank you for the tip anyways.

Yeah I remember when you told me Paulo stated Brawlin is larger than Adriano and I saw your posts on how impressive Hunter female is too but she gets overshadowed by the giants from the north haha, I wouldn't be surprised if Hero is above 130kg he has an impressive frame too bad he is aging already these dudes gotta be weighed before its too late. But this Brawlin male I am very curious to know his size if Paulo said he is that big he got to be weighed before its too late, theres also the male with the Scythe on the forehead he is very large too I'd guess he is above 120kg any day of the week and some from the south I am curios to see the size is Colombiano, the brothers Oreia and Grandão, Joker and other males from that area, we actually want all of them to be measured haha. There's one male that I really wanted to know his size was Xavier male, too bad he ventured north.

These current jaguars in terms of size would make a far heavier table compared to those from the tables I posted from 2000-2009.

What do you think about Mick in size? I don't find him that large but his head compared to the body is what impresses me the most just like Xavier male. they look so unique.

If you return to the Pantanal would you consider visiting the southern section on a safari with Onçafari project?

@OncaAtrox

These are the ''flowers'' I meant.

here's how I identify them.

as you can see on Mick's right side you see the single spot with the rossetes around it and looking over it all at once it looks like a flower, it all happens cause of that single spot in the middle.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Mick on left side here he got 2 flowers.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Heres the Scythe I see on this large male forehead

*This image is copyright of its original author

Geoff male - note theres one single spot right in the middle as well which can also ''turn into flower'' for another clear identification.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
Xando male the way I see ( with an ''L'' on his forehead ) but other people see an ''U''.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Hero male with a clear ''V'' on his forehead

*This image is copyright of its original author

Hero male from the left , you see his spots in the middle is kinda unique there's 2.

*This image is copyright of its original author

from the right its kinda unique too. ( that one lying is Hunter )

*This image is copyright of its original author

Adriano as you can see his face is very unique with a ''/'' on the forehead, the patterns over his body and around his eye all the way to his forehead on both sides, his left eye is a bit smaller due to fights (today it looks even worse) and his front limbs is covered with a huge stripe it also occurs to his other front limb.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Juru despite the flowers he got a ''flying bird'' shaped pattern on his forehead.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Geoff vs Juru ( both got flowers on both sides )

*This image is copyright of its original author

heres the Logo of Jaguar Identification project thats Patrícia female and on her forehead pattern as you can see it looks like a ''Bat''

*This image is copyright of its original author

Another one with an ''L'' on forehead, there's a ''W'' right bellow.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Medrosa female

*This image is copyright of its original author

this one has a butterfly on its forehead with one spot on ''each wing''.

*This image is copyright of its original author

This poor battled one looks so unique there's no need for noting differences his left ear is gone he is all battled scarred he is definitely a warrior, this jaguar is the proof that jaguars go all out when they really have to fight and they won't hold back at all.

*This image is copyright of its original author

There are others too but from these ones I think you already have a clue on what I mean.

There's no limits to imagination.

I understand that tracking jaguars is expensive so I see why these organizations don't do it more often, but I wish they did, as you said big toms like Hero are now past their prime so they start losing muscle mass and overall weight, leaving us guessing how much it probably measured in its prime. Jaguars are incredibly understudied and we need new data on their measurements to supplement the Almeida collections we have. I'm also impatient for the Aurora jaguars to be weighed, my estimations are that males such as Pajarote, Tote (past his prime and probably deceased), Faculto and Librao are above or close to be 120 kg.

You must understand that measuring and weighing these cats does nothing for them in terms of conservation.
Even radio collaring them doesn't really serve a purpose in terms of conservation, it helps understand their movement patterns but it's fairly simple, corridors need to be maintained so new Gene's can come and go. Some would argue that radio collaring and capturing does more harm than good with the deaths and poaching attached to them.

In terms of capturing, Panthera still has a few captures available in the north, they only get licensed to capture so many cats. But for whatever reason they haven't captured many lately.

Taking their measurements are key aspects of understanding their biology and you can't deny that compared to leopards or lions they are much less tracked and our information on their sizes is scarce. I'm sure these biologists want to track them just as much but as I said that takes resources from them so I don't blame them if they don't see the urgency. Still, I'm holding my hopes we'll get more weights and measurements in the future to increase our data.

But what good does understanding their biology do for conserving them?
Human curiosity makes us want to know as much as possible and its gotten us this far but it's also lead to the destruction of most of the natural world and extinction of many animals. Of course a biologist or zoologist will want to research these animals, it's their lifes purpose but do these animals need to be researched to survive?

That's not the point, all research is not supposed to be done entirely to find ways to preserve the species, sometimes biologists just want to collect data, more data allows us to understand them better and is more conclusive than guessing their biology/morphology. Plus there's no harm in actually tracking their measurements, the whole reason forums like this exist is to discuss those findings and debate them.
There are many forums, much of which dont care about sizes or vs outcomes

And there is actual harm in measuring them. Big cats have died in the capture process *anesthesia overdose* as well as becoming human aggressive afterwards and man killers.

Also, I received word back from Paulo on Heros size, he said that Hero isn't close to one of the largest Jaguars in the North.

But in this forum we do, that's why we have e threads about these same measurements, and getting the data from biologists who will take as much care as possible of the animal is certainly more ethical than relying on hunting records of hundreds of massacred animals. I don't get what your point has been for this whole rant.
You want more measurements, I said that they dont necessarily serve a purpose, you said that is what forums are about and I said not all forums. You said no harm comes from tracking their measurements and I provided cases that proved otherwise.
Pretty straight forward, no?

I want measurements like everyone else in this thread does, their purpose is to gather information on the jaguars like they do with all other animals. You brought other forums and the "vs" debates that I never mentioned. You're trying to incite a back and forth that nobody asked you to.

Anyways, I'll make sure to update here when we get more measurements and photographic materials of more wild jaguars since that is the purpose of these threads.

Pckts · 04-24-2020, 06:56 PM

(04-24-2020, 06:27 PM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 06:06 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 06:00 PM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:43 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 08:06 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 06:33 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:33 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:28 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:17 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 03:52 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote: @Pckts

Here I use the computer all the time, for me cellphone is not as good the screen is too tiny and on the computer I am more comfortable.

I found a website to copy the image locations I will post bellow, hope it works. Thank you for the tip anyways.

Yeah I remember when you told me Paulo stated Brawlin is larger than Adriano and I saw your posts on how impressive Hunter female is too but she gets overshadowed by the giants from the north haha, I wouldn't be surprised if Hero is above 130kg he has an impressive frame too bad he is aging already these dudes gotta be weighed before its too late. But this Brawlin male I am very curious to know his size if Paulo said he is that big he got to be weighed before its too late, theres also the male with the Scythe on the forehead he is very large too I'd guess he is above 120kg any day of the week and some from the south I am curios to see the size is Colombiano, the brothers Oreia and Grandão, Joker and other males from that area, we actually want all of them to be measured haha. There's one male that I really wanted to know his size was Xavier male, too bad he ventured north.

These current jaguars in terms of size would make a far heavier table compared to those from the tables I posted from 2000-2009.

What do you think about Mick in size? I don't find him that large but his head compared to the body is what impresses me the most just like Xavier male. they look so unique.

If you return to the Pantanal would you consider visiting the southern section on a safari with Onçafari project?

@OncaAtrox

These are the ''flowers'' I meant.

here's how I identify them.

as you can see on Mick's right side you see the single spot with the rossetes around it and looking over it all at once it looks like a flower, it all happens cause of that single spot in the middle.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Mick on left side here he got 2 flowers.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Heres the Scythe I see on this large male forehead

*This image is copyright of its original author

Geoff male - note theres one single spot right in the middle as well which can also ''turn into flower'' for another clear identification.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
Xando male the way I see ( with an ''L'' on his forehead ) but other people see an ''U''.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Hero male with a clear ''V'' on his forehead

*This image is copyright of its original author

Hero male from the left , you see his spots in the middle is kinda unique there's 2.

*This image is copyright of its original author

from the right its kinda unique too. ( that one lying is Hunter )

*This image is copyright of its original author

Adriano as you can see his face is very unique with a ''/'' on the forehead, the patterns over his body and around his eye all the way to his forehead on both sides, his left eye is a bit smaller due to fights (today it looks even worse) and his front limbs is covered with a huge stripe it also occurs to his other front limb.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Juru despite the flowers he got a ''flying bird'' shaped pattern on his forehead.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Geoff vs Juru ( both got flowers on both sides )

*This image is copyright of its original author

heres the Logo of Jaguar Identification project thats Patrícia female and on her forehead pattern as you can see it looks like a ''Bat''

*This image is copyright of its original author

Another one with an ''L'' on forehead, there's a ''W'' right bellow.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Medrosa female

*This image is copyright of its original author

this one has a butterfly on its forehead with one spot on ''each wing''.

*This image is copyright of its original author

This poor battled one looks so unique there's no need for noting differences his left ear is gone he is all battled scarred he is definitely a warrior, this jaguar is the proof that jaguars go all out when they really have to fight and they won't hold back at all.

*This image is copyright of its original author

There are others too but from these ones I think you already have a clue on what I mean.

There's no limits to imagination.

I understand that tracking jaguars is expensive so I see why these organizations don't do it more often, but I wish they did, as you said big toms like Hero are now past their prime so they start losing muscle mass and overall weight, leaving us guessing how much it probably measured in its prime. Jaguars are incredibly understudied and we need new data on their measurements to supplement the Almeida collections we have. I'm also impatient for the Aurora jaguars to be weighed, my estimations are that males such as Pajarote, Tote (past his prime and probably deceased), Faculto and Librao are above or close to be 120 kg.

You must understand that measuring and weighing these cats does nothing for them in terms of conservation.
Even radio collaring them doesn't really serve a purpose in terms of conservation, it helps understand their movement patterns but it's fairly simple, corridors need to be maintained so new Gene's can come and go. Some would argue that radio collaring and capturing does more harm than good with the deaths and poaching attached to them.

In terms of capturing, Panthera still has a few captures available in the north, they only get licensed to capture so many cats. But for whatever reason they haven't captured many lately.

Taking their measurements are key aspects of understanding their biology and you can't deny that compared to leopards or lions they are much less tracked and our information on their sizes is scarce. I'm sure these biologists want to track them just as much but as I said that takes resources from them so I don't blame them if they don't see the urgency. Still, I'm holding my hopes we'll get more weights and measurements in the future to increase our data.

But what good does understanding their biology do for conserving them?
Human curiosity makes us want to know as much as possible and its gotten us this far but it's also lead to the destruction of most of the natural world and extinction of many animals. Of course a biologist or zoologist will want to research these animals, it's their lifes purpose but do these animals need to be researched to survive?

That's not the point, all research is not supposed to be done entirely to find ways to preserve the species, sometimes biologists just want to collect data, more data allows us to understand them better and is more conclusive than guessing their biology/morphology. Plus there's no harm in actually tracking their measurements, the whole reason forums like this exist is to discuss those findings and debate them.
There are many forums, much of which dont care about sizes or vs outcomes

And there is actual harm in measuring them. Big cats have died in the capture process *anesthesia overdose* as well as becoming human aggressive afterwards and man killers.

Also, I received word back from Paulo on Heros size, he said that Hero isn't close to one of the largest Jaguars in the North.

But in this forum we do, that's why we have e threads about these same measurements, and getting the data from biologists who will take as much care as possible of the animal is certainly more ethical than relying on hunting records of hundreds of massacred animals. I don't get what your point has been for this whole rant.
You want more measurements, I said that they dont necessarily serve a purpose, you said that is what forums are about and I said not all forums. You said no harm comes from tracking their measurements and I provided cases that proved otherwise.
Pretty straight forward, no?

I want measurements like everyone else in this thread does, their purpose is to gather information on the jaguars like they do with all other animals. You brought other forums and the "vs" debates that I never mentioned. You're trying to incite a back and forth that nobody asked you to.

Anyways, I'll make sure to update here when we get more measurements and photographic materials of more wild jaguars since that is the purpose of these threads.

We have a modern weight and measurements thread.
You participated in the back and forth, takes two to tango.
I'm just as interested in their size but my point was that it comes at a cost and usually it's not worth it which is why they are only allowed to do it under very regulated circumstances.

Balam · 04-24-2020, 07:12 PM

(04-24-2020, 06:56 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 06:27 PM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 06:06 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 06:00 PM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:43 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 08:06 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 06:33 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:33 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:28 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:17 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote: I understand that tracking jaguars is expensive so I see why these organizations don't do it more often, but I wish they did, as you said big toms like Hero are now past their prime so they start losing muscle mass and overall weight, leaving us guessing how much it probably measured in its prime. Jaguars are incredibly understudied and we need new data on their measurements to supplement the Almeida collections we have. I'm also impatient for the Aurora jaguars to be weighed, my estimations are that males such as Pajarote, Tote (past his prime and probably deceased), Faculto and Librao are above or close to be 120 kg.

You must understand that measuring and weighing these cats does nothing for them in terms of conservation.
Even radio collaring them doesn't really serve a purpose in terms of conservation, it helps understand their movement patterns but it's fairly simple, corridors need to be maintained so new Gene's can come and go. Some would argue that radio collaring and capturing does more harm than good with the deaths and poaching attached to them.

In terms of capturing, Panthera still has a few captures available in the north, they only get licensed to capture so many cats. But for whatever reason they haven't captured many lately.

Taking their measurements are key aspects of understanding their biology and you can't deny that compared to leopards or lions they are much less tracked and our information on their sizes is scarce. I'm sure these biologists want to track them just as much but as I said that takes resources from them so I don't blame them if they don't see the urgency. Still, I'm holding my hopes we'll get more weights and measurements in the future to increase our data.

But what good does understanding their biology do for conserving them?
Human curiosity makes us want to know as much as possible and its gotten us this far but it's also lead to the destruction of most of the natural world and extinction of many animals. Of course a biologist or zoologist will want to research these animals, it's their lifes purpose but do these animals need to be researched to survive?

That's not the point, all research is not supposed to be done entirely to find ways to preserve the species, sometimes biologists just want to collect data, more data allows us to understand them better and is more conclusive than guessing their biology/morphology. Plus there's no harm in actually tracking their measurements, the whole reason forums like this exist is to discuss those findings and debate them.
There are many forums, much of which dont care about sizes or vs outcomes

And there is actual harm in measuring them. Big cats have died in the capture process *anesthesia overdose* as well as becoming human aggressive afterwards and man killers.

Also, I received word back from Paulo on Heros size, he said that Hero isn't close to one of the largest Jaguars in the North.

But in this forum we do, that's why we have e threads about these same measurements, and getting the data from biologists who will take as much care as possible of the animal is certainly more ethical than relying on hunting records of hundreds of massacred animals. I don't get what your point has been for this whole rant.
You want more measurements, I said that they dont necessarily serve a purpose, you said that is what forums are about and I said not all forums. You said no harm comes from tracking their measurements and I provided cases that proved otherwise.
Pretty straight forward, no?

I want measurements like everyone else in this thread does, their purpose is to gather information on the jaguars like they do with all other animals. You brought other forums and the "vs" debates that I never mentioned. You're trying to incite a back and forth that nobody asked you to.

Anyways, I'll make sure to update here when we get more measurements and photographic materials of more wild jaguars since that is the purpose of these threads.

We have a modern weight and measurements thread.
You participated in the back and forth, takes two to tango.
I'm just as interested in their size but my point was that it comes at a cost and usually it's not worth it which is why they are only allowed to do it under very regulated circumstances.

So that whole rant was for nothing because at the end of the day the whole purpose is to gather measurements. That is your opinion and mine is different. Great, moving on.

Pckts · 04-24-2020, 07:23 PM

(04-24-2020, 07:12 PM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 06:56 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 06:27 PM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 06:06 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 06:00 PM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:43 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 08:06 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 06:33 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:33 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:28 AM)Pckts Wrote: You must understand that measuring and weighing these cats does nothing for them in terms of conservation.
Even radio collaring them doesn't really serve a purpose in terms of conservation, it helps understand their movement patterns but it's fairly simple, corridors need to be maintained so new Gene's can come and go. Some would argue that radio collaring and capturing does more harm than good with the deaths and poaching attached to them.

In terms of capturing, Panthera still has a few captures available in the north, they only get licensed to capture so many cats. But for whatever reason they haven't captured many lately.

Taking their measurements are key aspects of understanding their biology and you can't deny that compared to leopards or lions they are much less tracked and our information on their sizes is scarce. I'm sure these biologists want to track them just as much but as I said that takes resources from them so I don't blame them if they don't see the urgency. Still, I'm holding my hopes we'll get more weights and measurements in the future to increase our data.

But what good does understanding their biology do for conserving them?
Human curiosity makes us want to know as much as possible and its gotten us this far but it's also lead to the destruction of most of the natural world and extinction of many animals. Of course a biologist or zoologist will want to research these animals, it's their lifes purpose but do these animals need to be researched to survive?

That's not the point, all research is not supposed to be done entirely to find ways to preserve the species, sometimes biologists just want to collect data, more data allows us to understand them better and is more conclusive than guessing their biology/morphology. Plus there's no harm in actually tracking their measurements, the whole reason forums like this exist is to discuss those findings and debate them.
There are many forums, much of which dont care about sizes or vs outcomes

And there is actual harm in measuring them. Big cats have died in the capture process *anesthesia overdose* as well as becoming human aggressive afterwards and man killers.

Also, I received word back from Paulo on Heros size, he said that Hero isn't close to one of the largest Jaguars in the North.

But in this forum we do, that's why we have e threads about these same measurements, and getting the data from biologists who will take as much care as possible of the animal is certainly more ethical than relying on hunting records of hundreds of massacred animals. I don't get what your point has been for this whole rant.
You want more measurements, I said that they dont necessarily serve a purpose, you said that is what forums are about and I said not all forums. You said no harm comes from tracking their measurements and I provided cases that proved otherwise.
Pretty straight forward, no?

I want measurements like everyone else in this thread does, their purpose is to gather information on the jaguars like they do with all other animals. You brought other forums and the "vs" debates that I never mentioned. You're trying to incite a back and forth that nobody asked you to.

Anyways, I'll make sure to update here when we get more measurements and photographic materials of more wild jaguars since that is the purpose of these threads.

We have a modern weight and measurements thread.
You participated in the back and forth, takes two to tango.
I'm just as interested in their size but my point was that it comes at a cost and usually it's not worth it which is why they are only allowed to do it under very regulated circumstances.

So that whole rant was for nothing because at the end of the day the whole purpose is to gather measurements. That is your opinion and mine is different. Great, moving on.

Huh?
Just because I'm interested in size doesnt mean I think they should continue the practice.
Nice try though.

Balam · 04-24-2020, 07:26 PM

(04-24-2020, 07:23 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 07:12 PM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 06:56 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 06:27 PM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 06:06 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 06:00 PM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:43 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 08:06 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 06:33 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(04-24-2020, 05:33 AM)OncaAtrox Wrote: Taking their measurements are key aspects of understanding their biology and you can't deny that compared to leopards or lions they are much less tracked and our information on their sizes is scarce. I'm sure these biologists want to track them just as much but as I said that takes resources from them so I don't blame them if they don't see the urgency. Still, I'm holding my hopes we'll get more weights and measurements in the future to increase our data.

But what good does understanding their biology do for conserving them?
Human curiosity makes us want to know as much as possible and its gotten us this far but it's also lead to the destruction of most of the natural world and extinction of many animals. Of course a biologist or zoologist will want to research these animals, it's their lifes purpose but do these animals need to be researched to survive?

That's not the point, all research is not supposed to be done entirely to find ways to preserve the species, sometimes biologists just want to collect data, more data allows us to understand them better and is more conclusive than guessing their biology/morphology. Plus there's no harm in actually tracking their measurements, the whole reason forums like this exist is to discuss those findings and debate them.
There are many forums, much of which dont care about sizes or vs outcomes

And there is actual harm in measuring them. Big cats have died in the capture process *anesthesia overdose* as well as becoming human aggressive afterwards and man killers.

Also, I received word back from Paulo on Heros size, he said that Hero isn't close to one of the largest Jaguars in the North.

But in this forum we do, that's why we have e threads about these same measurements, and getting the data from biologists who will take as much care as possible of the animal is certainly more ethical than relying on hunting records of hundreds of massacred animals. I don't get what your point has been for this whole rant.
You want more measurements, I said that they dont necessarily serve a purpose, you said that is what forums are about and I said not all forums. You said no harm comes from tracking their measurements and I provided cases that proved otherwise.
Pretty straight forward, no?

I want measurements like everyone else in this thread does, their purpose is to gather information on the jaguars like they do with all other animals. You brought other forums and the "vs" debates that I never mentioned. You're trying to incite a back and forth that nobody asked you to.

Anyways, I'll make sure to update here when we get more measurements and photographic materials of more wild jaguars since that is the purpose of these threads.

We have a modern weight and measurements thread.
You participated in the back and forth, takes two to tango.
I'm just as interested in their size but my point was that it comes at a cost and usually it's not worth it which is why they are only allowed to do it under very regulated circumstances.

So that whole rant was for nothing because at the end of the day the whole purpose is to gather measurements. That is your opinion and mine is different. Great, moving on.

Huh?
Just because I'm interested in size doesnt mean I think they should continue the practice.
Nice try though.

And you're still interested so my point stands, as I said, that is your opinion and mine is different.

Pckts · 04-24-2020, 09:29 PM

jaguaridproject

Rumble in the Jungle! Here we have the lovely Patricia and Merlin mating in mid July. Merlin is a new male we had been seeing a lot this past season, hopefully he will stick around!

A side note, Paul Donahue has a new book coming out that is in it's final stages of editing and should be released in June.
It's called the Jaguars of Northern Pantanal.
Should be a great read and images for any one interested.

Dark Jaguar · 04-24-2020, 10:11 PM

That is a very sensitive subject as we want more weight and measurements it could be tough for jaguars too wearing collars and with the anesthetic doses to keep them asleep but the projects takes good care as much as they can even the collars of nowadays as soon as the jag gets mass on the neck it will automatically fall off but with all jags sizes we got its a good number to take a few conclusions on modern jags. Above all the most important thing for me is to prevent poachers and the increase of the population the more wild jags in nature the better for nature.

Regarding the lack of studies in the species I think from all we have gathered us three can agree on a few things regarding pantanal male jaguars, first their average size, female is 76-77kg the polemic one is the males the other day I was reading an article and there's an interesting statement from the Expert Photographer Adriano Gambarini who follows projects suchs as Onçafari, Instituto Mamirauá ( in amazon ), he even followed an expedition for Caatinga jaguars in caatinga, he is the responsable for the official photographs of the captures and the projects works, everything about jaguars he is involved, he also has traveled the whole world photographing wild life, in the article he says the average size of a Pantanal male is ABOVE 100kg,

http://jaguar.org.br/wp-content/uploads/publicacoes/Dalli_L_2018.pdf

Page 16 of the link his statement in portuguese - ''Besides the high population densities, the biome (pantanal) presents the jaguars with the largest body size, being the average weight for males in this biome superior to 100kg, with some surpassing 130kg (Gambarini, 2016).''

I know he is not a biologist and some would argue the statement but coming from a person who follows the captures all the time and is witnessing everything up close hearing all those weights, sizes on jaguars we still don't know about ( remember Onçafari monitores more than 120 jaguars ) its pretty accurate to me and in my opinion with Adriano Gambini's statement or not pantanal male jags today average 105kg ( I already had that in mind before reading the article ) all the results show this and I'm glad Gambarini said that it just boosts that claim and some may argue ''there's no official scientifically statement of this and they still average 90kg'' The datas provided by projects is official right if its not scientific I don't know what that is, if this science entity who studied Almeidas datas and made them official is really interested in studying jaguars weight why they don't do a modern study, it should at least realise jaguars have been studied much more often lately in comparison to decades ago thanks to many conservation projects and stop sticking up to Almeidas weight and sizes and turn into a new modern page I'm sure this science entity will be surprised with the new results and forget that false 90kg average for once of all, if That 90kg average was accurate yes it was but 40 years ago, not anymore, even Peter Crawshaw himself saw how harsh it was for jaguars to live back then, I am not trying to downgrade Almeidas datas he provided many sizes, measurements, skull sizes that was game change but its been over 40 years already and many things regarding jaguars have changed since then ( thankfully for the better ) and its time for this science entity wake up and set this oudated jaguar table for once of all. Some people who desagree complain about statements through instagram,twitter pages but what would they expect ?? after all the accurate datas provided by projects I trust their words and if it is through instagram, twitter that is no problem its future, modernity, the internet era. if this science entity want to prove the real data why don't they do so but this time on modern jags I'm sure they will have a surprise. That 148kg modern pantanal male captured at north shown by @Pckts is other example of it so until this responsable for ''scientifically officialy proven'' or whatever don't show anything with modern jags in that regard, I will stick to what projects provide to us TODAY and not to 40 years old outdated datas and also I will stick to the average size being 105kg, is it scientifically correct? of course not but modern datas led us to their real weight potential Joker is an example of it and imagine with all those large males out there and the ones missed that are gone already ( Fantasma ( ghost ) and Xavier.... ) So until this science entity prove I am ( we are ) wrong IMO pantanal males average size is 105kg. even the professional photographer is noticing the ''modern differences'' . I don't know about you 2 but After seeing many weights way above 100kg and yet sticking to an average size of only 90kg is just wrong and outdated to me. And I know such a study for the entity might take alot of resources but lets remember jaguars are the least studied of all big cats.

About maximum sizes I think from these large male Pantanal jaguars we all wish to know how large they are even if we don't get it we already have a minimum clue on how large on frame 120+,130+ males can be so regardless of what other people who desagrees with us think we know they are up there in weight even if they will never get weighed and even Cerrado jaguars are far impressive too.

It would be cool to see a comparison on measurements of that average cerrado male 87.5kg I posted there's thorax girth, pad sizes, body/tail lengths with the likes of Shaka and Joker.

About the corridors Leandro Silveira works alot with it as well, I wish you guys spoke portugues to watch a few videos when Richard Rasmussen visited IOP in Cerrado last year with the porpose to learn more about jags, its so educatinal and amazing.

jaguars outside of Brasil I am very curious too regarding their capabilities and I know they're also large, that post by @OncaAtrox was impressive that domestic buffalo predation was just Wow and also that Santander jag, and I am sure Paraguay has alot to offer as well since its the least studied area of Pantanal.

Personally today the population of jags I would focus the most regarding conservation in my country would be the Caatinga jags, they are the most understudied, they are the smallest and rarest of all and a terrible fate like occured to the Pampas jaguars could happen at any time since theres so little Caatinga jaguars.

For a comparison The only caatinga jaguar weight I could find was that 37kg male that has even a comparison to a 130kg pantanal male about the same age. I wanna gather more weights of these caatinga jags but also know more how their lifestyles are.

Dark Jaguar · 04-24-2020, 10:23 PM

Geoff on a mission

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