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sanjay · 06-19-2014, 10:23 AM

good find,

Apollo · 06-19-2014, 11:36 AM

TFS Siegfried.

GrizzlyClaws · 06-19-2014, 09:24 PM

(06-19-2014, 09:10 PM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 08:24 PM)'GuateGojira' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 07:15 AM)'Siegfried' Wrote: Here are both jaglions at Bear Creek. The male is very impressive looking.

Amazing video. Did you want to see the "real" Panthera atrox? Then, you most see the jaglions. I bet that the skull of these cats is equal to that of Panthera atrox.

GrizzlyClaws is absolutely right, a jaglion most be more healthy than a liger or tigon, as jaguars and lions are more closely related. However, following this path, the most "healthy" of the hybrids most be the "lion x leopard" mix, as these two separated about 550,000 years ago, even after than the separation of the cave "lion" (Panthera spelaea) at about 700,000 years ago.

Panthera atrox is american lion right ?
Ive heard they are twice as big as African lions ?
But these jaglions are smaller than african lions.
Then how come they are equal ?
I saw a pic of atrox and african lion skull (from Bold) and the skull of atrox is double the size.

Panthera atrox is a hybrid of Panthera spelaea fossilis and Panthera onca gombaszoegensis, so they should look like a giant jaglion.

Apollo · 06-19-2014, 09:41 PM

(06-16-2014, 11:37 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote:
(06-16-2014, 09:26 AM)'Apollo' Wrote: Do you think that longer canines of Amur is an adaptation to take down prey with thick fat and fur ?
Because most of the prey species in Russian fareast have thick layer of fat and fur for climattic reasons.

In fact, Amur tigers not only have long canines, they have the most powerful skulls among the entire species. The skull of the Amur-Caspian tiger have the largest sagital crest and the widest zygomatic bones. It seems that the skull itself evolved to be massive and powerful, much more than that of the Bengal tiger, for example.

I think, and I have say this many times before, that the Amur tiger evolved these cranial characteristics in order to prey over one of the most dangerous prey: the wild boar. The Amur tiger prey heavily in the wild boar, and the Caspian tiger even more, so I think that these tigers developed this huge skull to kill them more efficiently. Besides, these tigers are prone to die of hunger because of the heavy winters, so they need everything they can have to make a good kill. Besides, like a side effect, these incredible predatory capabilities help them against bears and wolves, allowing tigers to overcome these other predators.

Yeah Amurs in general seems to have more massive skulls than Bengals (Im not sure about Terai and Kaziranga)
I also beleive that at best optimal conditions the Amurs will outgrow Bengals. Right now Bengal tigers are the heaviest of all tiger subspecies.
Amur tigers eventhough slightly longer than Bengals, they are lighter in weight.
The reason is the ecosystem where they live in. The current Amur ecosystem is less favourable than Bengal ecosystem for the tigers to live in and bring out there best potentials coded in their genes.
At best optimum conditions the animals will bring out their best ( When there is abundance of food, space, suitable climate, less competition etc the animals will reproduce at higher rate and brings out their biggest body sizes genetically possibly for that species).
I think Amurs are genetically capable of out growing bengals but lacks favourable conditions to bring out the growth potential.
Even at current status if Amurs are going to have same chest girths like Bengals, they will be heavier because they are slightly longer.

Apollo · 06-19-2014, 10:00 PM

(06-19-2014, 09:24 PM)'GrizzlyClaws' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 09:10 PM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 08:24 PM)'GuateGojira' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 07:15 AM)'Siegfried' Wrote: Here are both jaglions at Bear Creek. The male is very impressive looking.

Amazing video. Did you want to see the "real" Panthera atrox? Then, you most see the jaglions. I bet that the skull of these cats is equal to that of Panthera atrox.

GrizzlyClaws is absolutely right, a jaglion most be more healthy than a liger or tigon, as jaguars and lions are more closely related. However, following this path, the most "healthy" of the hybrids most be the "lion x leopard" mix, as these two separated about 550,000 years ago, even after than the separation of the cave "lion" (Panthera spelaea) at about 700,000 years ago.

Panthera atrox is american lion right ?
Ive heard they are twice as big as African lions ?
But these jaglions are smaller than african lions.
Then how come they are equal ?
I saw a pic of atrox and african lion skull (from Bold) and the skull of atrox is double the size.

Panthera atrox is a hybrid of Panthera spelaea fossilis and Panthera onca gombaszoegensis, so they should look like a giant jaglion.

How big and heavy were P.atrox ?

Pckts · 06-19-2014, 10:30 PM

(06-19-2014, 09:41 PM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(06-16-2014, 11:37 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote:
(06-16-2014, 09:26 AM)'Apollo' Wrote: Do you think that longer canines of Amur is an adaptation to take down prey with thick fat and fur ?
Because most of the prey species in Russian fareast have thick layer of fat and fur for climattic reasons.

In fact, Amur tigers not only have long canines, they have the most powerful skulls among the entire species. The skull of the Amur-Caspian tiger have the largest sagital crest and the widest zygomatic bones. It seems that the skull itself evolved to be massive and powerful, much more than that of the Bengal tiger, for example.

I think, and I have say this many times before, that the Amur tiger evolved these cranial characteristics in order to prey over one of the most dangerous prey: the wild boar. The Amur tiger prey heavily in the wild boar, and the Caspian tiger even more, so I think that these tigers developed this huge skull to kill them more efficiently. Besides, these tigers are prone to die of hunger because of the heavy winters, so they need everything they can have to make a good kill. Besides, like a side effect, these incredible predatory capabilities help them against bears and wolves, allowing tigers to overcome these other predators.

Yeah Amurs in general seems to have more massive skulls than Bengals (Im not sure about Terai and Kaziranga)
I also beleive that at best optimal conditions the Amurs will outgrow Bengals. Right now Bengal tigers are the heaviest of all tiger subspecies.
Amur tigers eventhough slightly longer than Bengals, they are lighter in weight.
The reason is the ecosystem where they live in. The current Amur ecosystem is less favourable than Bengal ecosystem for the tigers to live in and bring out there best potentials coded in their genes.
At best optimum conditions the animals will bring out their best ( When there is abundance of food, space, suitable climate, less competition etc the animals will reproduce at higher rate and brings out their biggest body sizes genetically possibly for that species).
I think Amurs are genetically capable of out growing bengals but lacks favourable conditions to bring out the growth potential.
Even at current status if Amurs are going to have same chest girths like Bengals, they will be heavier because they are slightly longer.

Just remember, even when amurs had a thriving eco system, they have never surpassed the weights of Bengals.
The longest canines and largest skull still belong to a bengal for wild cats. I even believe the longest body length also belongs to a Bengal, but I'm not positive about that.
Largest chest and neck girth belong to bengals and same with forelimb girth as well, but amurs get measured few and far between now a days, but even in old hunting records, bengals had larger measurements.
But if captivity is what Siberians are really capable of , then they are definitely the largest cat. But maybe it is because of their need to produce more fat that they get larger in captivity, so who knows for sure.

A couple of side notes on the Jaglion
-Cool to see the Tuft on the tail of the jaglion like in lions
-notice how they kept the jaguars silent attack, lions make big growls and roars when they attack.
Neat to see a little of both in that cat, even though i highly dislike hybrids

GrizzlyClaws · 06-19-2014, 10:54 PM

(06-19-2014, 10:00 PM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 09:24 PM)'GrizzlyClaws' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 09:10 PM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 08:24 PM)'GuateGojira' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 07:15 AM)'Siegfried' Wrote: Here are both jaglions at Bear Creek. The male is very impressive looking.

Amazing video. Did you want to see the "real" Panthera atrox? Then, you most see the jaglions. I bet that the skull of these cats is equal to that of Panthera atrox.

GrizzlyClaws is absolutely right, a jaglion most be more healthy than a liger or tigon, as jaguars and lions are more closely related. However, following this path, the most "healthy" of the hybrids most be the "lion x leopard" mix, as these two separated about 550,000 years ago, even after than the separation of the cave "lion" (Panthera spelaea) at about 700,000 years ago.

Panthera atrox is american lion right ?
Ive heard they are twice as big as African lions ?
But these jaglions are smaller than african lions.
Then how come they are equal ?
I saw a pic of atrox and african lion skull (from Bold) and the skull of atrox is double the size.

Panthera atrox is a hybrid of Panthera spelaea fossilis and Panthera onca gombaszoegensis, so they should look like a giant jaglion.

How big and heavy were P.atrox ?

The largest specimen should weigh about 800 pounds.

Apollo · 06-19-2014, 11:06 PM

(06-19-2014, 10:54 PM)'GrizzlyClaws' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 10:00 PM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 09:24 PM)'GrizzlyClaws' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 09:10 PM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 08:24 PM)'GuateGojira' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 07:15 AM)'Siegfried' Wrote: Here are both jaglions at Bear Creek. The male is very impressive looking.

Amazing video. Did you want to see the "real" Panthera atrox? Then, you most see the jaglions. I bet that the skull of these cats is equal to that of Panthera atrox.

GrizzlyClaws is absolutely right, a jaglion most be more healthy than a liger or tigon, as jaguars and lions are more closely related. However, following this path, the most "healthy" of the hybrids most be the "lion x leopard" mix, as these two separated about 550,000 years ago, even after than the separation of the cave "lion" (Panthera spelaea) at about 700,000 years ago.

Panthera atrox is american lion right ?
Ive heard they are twice as big as African lions ?
But these jaglions are smaller than african lions.
Then how come they are equal ?
I saw a pic of atrox and african lion skull (from Bold) and the skull of atrox is double the size.

Panthera atrox is a hybrid of Panthera spelaea fossilis and Panthera onca gombaszoegensis, so they should look like a giant jaglion.

How big and heavy were P.atrox ?

The largest specimen should weigh about 800 pounds.

I thought they averaged at around 800-900 lbs.
What is there body dimensions (height, length)
What is there average weight ?
Can you give me some more info on these cats.
I guess the articles I read should be out dated.

GrizzlyClaws · 06-19-2014, 11:11 PM

(06-19-2014, 11:06 PM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 10:54 PM)'GrizzlyClaws' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 10:00 PM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 09:24 PM)'GrizzlyClaws' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 09:10 PM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 08:24 PM)'GuateGojira' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 07:15 AM)'Siegfried' Wrote: Here are both jaglions at Bear Creek. The male is very impressive looking.

Amazing video. Did you want to see the "real" Panthera atrox? Then, you most see the jaglions. I bet that the skull of these cats is equal to that of Panthera atrox.

GrizzlyClaws is absolutely right, a jaglion most be more healthy than a liger or tigon, as jaguars and lions are more closely related. However, following this path, the most "healthy" of the hybrids most be the "lion x leopard" mix, as these two separated about 550,000 years ago, even after than the separation of the cave "lion" (Panthera spelaea) at about 700,000 years ago.

Panthera atrox is american lion right ?
Ive heard they are twice as big as African lions ?
But these jaglions are smaller than african lions.
Then how come they are equal ?
I saw a pic of atrox and african lion skull (from Bold) and the skull of atrox is double the size.

Panthera atrox is a hybrid of Panthera spelaea fossilis and Panthera onca gombaszoegensis, so they should look like a giant jaglion.

How big and heavy were P.atrox ?

The largest specimen should weigh about 800 pounds.

I thought they averaged at around 800-900 lbs.
What is there body dimensions (height, length)
What is there average weight ?
Can you give me some more info on these cats.
I guess the articles I read should be out dated.

According to Christiansen & Harris 2009, the average male Panthera atrox weighs about 255kg.

And i think that Guate can provide you the more elaborate information about these cats.

Apollo · 06-19-2014, 11:27 PM

(06-19-2014, 11:11 PM)'GrizzlyClaws' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 11:06 PM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 10:54 PM)'GrizzlyClaws' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 10:00 PM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 09:24 PM)'GrizzlyClaws' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 09:10 PM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 08:24 PM)'GuateGojira' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 07:15 AM)'Siegfried' Wrote: Here are both jaglions at Bear Creek. The male is very impressive looking.

Amazing video. Did you want to see the "real" Panthera atrox? Then, you most see the jaglions. I bet that the skull of these cats is equal to that of Panthera atrox.

GrizzlyClaws is absolutely right, a jaglion most be more healthy than a liger or tigon, as jaguars and lions are more closely related. However, following this path, the most "healthy" of the hybrids most be the "lion x leopard" mix, as these two separated about 550,000 years ago, even after than the separation of the cave "lion" (Panthera spelaea) at about 700,000 years ago.

Panthera atrox is american lion right ?
Ive heard they are twice as big as African lions ?
But these jaglions are smaller than african lions.
Then how come they are equal ?
I saw a pic of atrox and african lion skull (from Bold) and the skull of atrox is double the size.

Panthera atrox is a hybrid of Panthera spelaea fossilis and Panthera onca gombaszoegensis, so they should look like a giant jaglion.

How big and heavy were P.atrox ?

The largest specimen should weigh about 800 pounds.

I thought they averaged at around 800-900 lbs.
What is there body dimensions (height, length)
What is there average weight ?
Can you give me some more info on these cats.
I guess the articles I read should be out dated.

According to Christiansen & Harris 2009, the average male Panthera atrox weighs about 255kg.

And i think that Guate can provide you the more elaborate information about these cats.

I thought these cats were much bigger (twice the size of modern lions).
Seems like they are (10-12)% heavier than modern Bengals.
Im planning to start a new topic on Prehistoric felids sizes, weight, info and data

GrizzlyClaws · 06-19-2014, 11:42 PM

(06-19-2014, 11:27 PM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 11:11 PM)'GrizzlyClaws' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 11:06 PM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 10:54 PM)'GrizzlyClaws' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 10:00 PM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 09:24 PM)'GrizzlyClaws' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 09:10 PM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 08:24 PM)'GuateGojira' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 07:15 AM)'Siegfried' Wrote: Here are both jaglions at Bear Creek. The male is very impressive looking.

Amazing video. Did you want to see the "real" Panthera atrox? Then, you most see the jaglions. I bet that the skull of these cats is equal to that of Panthera atrox.

GrizzlyClaws is absolutely right, a jaglion most be more healthy than a liger or tigon, as jaguars and lions are more closely related. However, following this path, the most "healthy" of the hybrids most be the "lion x leopard" mix, as these two separated about 550,000 years ago, even after than the separation of the cave "lion" (Panthera spelaea) at about 700,000 years ago.

Panthera atrox is american lion right ?
Ive heard they are twice as big as African lions ?
But these jaglions are smaller than african lions.
Then how come they are equal ?
I saw a pic of atrox and african lion skull (from Bold) and the skull of atrox is double the size.

Panthera atrox is a hybrid of Panthera spelaea fossilis and Panthera onca gombaszoegensis, so they should look like a giant jaglion.

How big and heavy were P.atrox ?

The largest specimen should weigh about 800 pounds.

I thought they averaged at around 800-900 lbs.
What is there body dimensions (height, length)
What is there average weight ?
Can you give me some more info on these cats.
I guess the articles I read should be out dated.

According to Christiansen & Harris 2009, the average male Panthera atrox weighs about 255kg.

And i think that Guate can provide you the more elaborate information about these cats.

I thought these cats were much bigger (twice the size of modern lions).
Seems like they are (10-12)% heavier than modern Bengals.
Im planning to start a new topic on Prehistoric felids sizes, weight, info and data

Don't get misled by those TV shows, and the 700-800 pounds Panthera atrox specimen they were using in the Jurassic Fighting Club was not an average specimen, but an alpha male specimen.

The prehistoric felids were larger, but not as large as those tabloid headlines to catch for more attention.

Pckts · 06-19-2014, 11:59 PM

(06-19-2014, 11:42 PM)'GrizzlyClaws' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 11:27 PM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 11:11 PM)'GrizzlyClaws' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 11:06 PM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 10:54 PM)'GrizzlyClaws' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 10:00 PM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 09:24 PM)'GrizzlyClaws' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 09:10 PM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 08:24 PM)'GuateGojira' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 07:15 AM)'Siegfried' Wrote: Here are both jaglions at Bear Creek. The male is very impressive looking.

Amazing video. Did you want to see the "real" Panthera atrox? Then, you most see the jaglions. I bet that the skull of these cats is equal to that of Panthera atrox.

GrizzlyClaws is absolutely right, a jaglion most be more healthy than a liger or tigon, as jaguars and lions are more closely related. However, following this path, the most "healthy" of the hybrids most be the "lion x leopard" mix, as these two separated about 550,000 years ago, even after than the separation of the cave "lion" (Panthera spelaea) at about 700,000 years ago.

Panthera atrox is american lion right ?
Ive heard they are twice as big as African lions ?
But these jaglions are smaller than african lions.
Then how come they are equal ?
I saw a pic of atrox and african lion skull (from Bold) and the skull of atrox is double the size.

Panthera atrox is a hybrid of Panthera spelaea fossilis and Panthera onca gombaszoegensis, so they should look like a giant jaglion.

How big and heavy were P.atrox ?

The largest specimen should weigh about 800 pounds.

I thought they averaged at around 800-900 lbs.
What is there body dimensions (height, length)
What is there average weight ?
Can you give me some more info on these cats.
I guess the articles I read should be out dated.

According to Christiansen & Harris 2009, the average male Panthera atrox weighs about 255kg.

And i think that Guate can provide you the more elaborate information about these cats.

I thought these cats were much bigger (twice the size of modern lions).
Seems like they are (10-12)% heavier than modern Bengals.
Im planning to start a new topic on Prehistoric felids sizes, weight, info and data

Don't get misled by those TV shows, and the 700-800 pounds Panthera atrox specimen they were using in the Jurassic Fighting Club was not an average specimen, but an alpha male specimen.

The prehistoric felids were larger, but not as large as those tabloid headlines to catch for more attention.

gaute has done some great work on getting these actual sizes and info.
Gaute writes
"Here are the largest tigers of all times, with a little information about them:

1. The Ngandong tiger (Panthera tigris soloensis)
This tiger was the pinnacle of the body size for this species. They live in the ancient Sonda shelf about 195,000 years ago. They were larger than the largest Amur-Wanhsien specimens, with large bones but with relative slender metapodials. This tiger already had the modern Javanese form’s high M1 index and narrow occiput, which suggest that this is the direct ancestor of this species, now known as Panthera sondaica. The draw (of 2012) resembles these characteristics, together with more or less broad stripes, just like its ancestor of the mainland, although more darker in color and slender paws.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Body size:
* Head-body length: 210 – 230 cm.
* Total length: 316 – 345 cm.
* Shoulder height: 115 cm.
* Weight: 290 – 320 kg.

2. The Wanhsien tiger (Panthera tigris acutidens)
This is the direct antecessor of the modern mainland tigers, which evolved from the north of Indochina about 75,000 years ago. Is possible that this new form of tigers, traveled to the Sonda shelf and replaced the old from already present (Panthera tigris oxygnata) and gives origin to the Ngandong tiger. The fossils show that this great cat was of the same size than modern Amur-Bengal tigers, but it has robust bones and larger paws (according with its metapodials). This tiger is practically indistinguishable from modern ones, and probably looked just like a very large modern Amur tiger. Here is my representation of 2008 (modified in 2012).

*This image is copyright of its original author

Body size:
The same than modern specimens, with weights of 180 – 300 kg or slightly more.

3. The Bengal tiger (Panthera tigris tigris)
There is a debate about which is the largest tiger in modern times. However, most of the records show that the Bengal tiger have reached the highest level, with the largest skull and the longest body measurement. Its morphology is very know, so I just portrait him in an aggressive jump, with all the fierceness that give it fame. This is a draw of 2007.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Body size:
* Head-body length: 180 – 204 cm (up to 221 cm).
* Total length: 274 – 311 cm (up to 323 cm).
* Shoulder height: 91 – 112 cm.
* Weight: 170 – 260 kg (up to 320 kg, empty belly).

4. The Central Asia tiger (Panthera tigris virgata)
The tiger with the largest territorial extension of all, this great cat dominated from the northern Turkey and the Caspian Sea region (smaller in size), to Manchuria and the Amur region in the Russian Far East (larger in size); only those of the Amur region survive at this day. These cats were the largest in modern days, rivaled only by the probably slightly larger Northern Indian tigers. Much has been discussed about this population that is futile to rewrite all again. My image was made in 2008, and presents only the western population of this subspecies, popularly known as the Caspian tigers.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Body size [Amur region, between 1992-2011]:
* Head-body length: 178 – 208 cm (up to c.220 cm).
* Total length: 278 – 309 cm (up to 330 cm).
* Shoulder height: 81 – 106 cm (up to 110 cm).
* Weight: 155 – 220 kg (up to 325 kg).

1. Panthera leo fossilis: About the size of Panthera atrox, probably up to 320 kg and estimated at 240 cm in head-body length.
2. Panthera (leo) Toscana: About the size of a modern jaguar (100-140 kg), but this specimen is now reclassified as Panthera onca gombazoegensis.
3. Panthera youngi: Smaller than modern tigers, about the size than modern lion, but the first and new descriptions show that this is not a lion, but a different species related to tigers.
4. Panthera leo spelaea: Large animal, 8-10% larger than modern lions. Largest skull of 420 cm. WaveRiders mentioned one of c.440 cm, but no evidence was presented. It probably weighed up to 300 kg, although this is debatable. Body length estimated at 220 cm.
5. Panthera leo vereshchagini: Medium size prehistoric lion, about the same size than largest modern lions. Check this about the weight of this great cat:
“Jefferson (1992) calculated body mass of Panthera atrox on the basis of M1 size. Analogous calculations by us for fossil Beringian lion gave masses of 194 kg for males and 154 kg for females. Male Beringian lions were 21% larger than females, in contrast with P. atrox (males 31% larger) and with the recent African P. leo (males 15% larger) (Schaller, 1972; Jefferson, 1992).”
Source: Baryshnikov & Boeskorov. 2001. The pleistocene cave lion, Panthera spelaea (Carnivora, Felidae) from Yakutia, Russia.

This is the data that I have in my memory right now, but I will make a document about this cats. For the moment, my goal is the document about the Sonda tigers and the tiger evolution."
"By the way, the body mass of the Ngandong tiger (P. t. soloensis) must be updated. The new investigations made by Tigerluver and me put the body mass of this great cat between 370 kg (using the Christiansen & Harris (2005) equations) and 415 kg (Tigerluver new equations). This surpasses the weight of the largest Panthera atrox and Panthera (leo) fossilis and match with the largest Smilodon populator."

GrizzlyClaws · 06-20-2014, 12:13 AM

Some Panthera spelaea fossilis specimens are huge with the skull of over 19 inches long, but proportionally narrower and less robust.

And its shoulder height is over 4 feet, and being 8 feet in the head+body length.

In case their body proportion is very similar to the modern lion, and i think Baikal is the only modern cat which can be compared to these prehistoric giant felids.

GuateGojira · 06-20-2014, 09:57 AM

(06-19-2014, 09:10 PM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 08:24 PM)'GuateGojira' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 07:15 AM)'Siegfried' Wrote: Here are both jaglions at Bear Creek. The male is very impressive looking.

Amazing video. Did you want to see the "real" Panthera atrox? Then, you most see the jaglions. I bet that the skull of these cats is equal to that of Panthera atrox.

GrizzlyClaws is absolutely right, a jaglion most be more healthy than a liger or tigon, as jaguars and lions are more closely related. However, following this path, the most "healthy" of the hybrids most be the "lion x leopard" mix, as these two separated about 550,000 years ago, even after than the separation of the cave "lion" (Panthera spelaea) at about 700,000 years ago.

Panthera atrox is american lion right ?
Ive heard they are twice as big as African lions ?
But these jaglions are smaller than african lions.
Then how come they are equal ?
I saw a pic of atrox and african lion skull (from Bold) and the skull of atrox is double the size.

Apollo:
When I said that if we want to see a Panthera atrox, we need to see a Jaglion, I was NOT talking about size, but about morphology, pelage and possibly behavior. I think that this was very clear. [img]images/smilies/dodgy.gif[/img]

It is a HUGE myth (bolstered by lion-fans and the internet) that Panthera atrox was “twice the size” of an African lion. The largest Panthera atrox skull found at this day is of 46.8 cm (Merriam & Stock, 1932) while the largest modern African lion skull is of 43.2 cm (Rowland Ward, 1914), there is only 3.6 cm of difference! The estimated head-body length of Panthera atrox was of up to 250 cm at maximum, while the largest African lion measured between pegs was of 211 cm, there are only 39 cm of difference! Please, take in count that there is no reference if the estimation of 250 cm represent an “over curves” or “between pegs” measurements.

The difference was more in body mass than in linear dimensions (body size), with the heaviest modern lion reaching up to 240 kg empty belly, while the heaviest Panthera atrox, using modern formulas, was probably of c.360 kg.

The pic of Bold shows only a 36 cm lion skull against the largest Panthera atrox skull, both from Bone Clones.

GuateGojira · 06-20-2014, 10:19 AM

(06-19-2014, 11:06 PM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 10:54 PM)'GrizzlyClaws' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 10:00 PM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 09:24 PM)'GrizzlyClaws' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 09:10 PM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 08:24 PM)'GuateGojira' Wrote:
(06-19-2014, 07:15 AM)'Siegfried' Wrote: Here are both jaglions at Bear Creek. The male is very impressive looking.

Amazing video. Did you want to see the "real" Panthera atrox? Then, you most see the jaglions. I bet that the skull of these cats is equal to that of Panthera atrox.

GrizzlyClaws is absolutely right, a jaglion most be more healthy than a liger or tigon, as jaguars and lions are more closely related. However, following this path, the most "healthy" of the hybrids most be the "lion x leopard" mix, as these two separated about 550,000 years ago, even after than the separation of the cave "lion" (Panthera spelaea) at about 700,000 years ago.

Panthera atrox is american lion right ?
Ive heard they are twice as big as African lions ?
But these jaglions are smaller than african lions.
Then how come they are equal ?
I saw a pic of atrox and african lion skull (from Bold) and the skull of atrox is double the size.

Panthera atrox is a hybrid of Panthera spelaea fossilis and Panthera onca gombaszoegensis, so they should look like a giant jaglion.

How big and heavy were P.atrox ?

The largest specimen should weigh about 800 pounds.

I thought they averaged at around 800-900 lbs.
What is there body dimensions (height, length)
What is there average weight ?
Can you give me some more info on these cats.
I guess the articles I read should be out dated.

Apollo:

You: I thought they averaged at around 800-900 lbs.
Me: No, the average weight of Panthera atrox was about 250 kg. Check my previous post for size comparison. Besides, if we use the skulls size as a surrogate of overall size, only 3 from 18 skulls (17%) were larger than the modern African lions or Bengal tiger skulls.

You: What is there body dimensions (height, length)?
Me: This is the official data from the Museum of California, copy here by the San Diego Zoo:
* Head and Body Length: 1.6 - 2.5 m (5.3 - 8.2 ft) (Shaw 2005)
* Tail Length: .5 - .8 m (1.7 - 2.7 ft) (Shaw 2005)
Source: http://library.sandiegozoo.org/factsheet...erican.htm
The maximum shoulder height estimated by Turner & Anton (1996) was of 125 cm.

You: What is there average weight?
Me: It depends of the sources. The page of the San Diego Zoo still quote the figure of 235 kg for males and 175 kg from Gingrich (1990), but this is probably and underestimation. Legendre & Roth (1988) estimated an average figure of 266.2 kg for males and 183.1 kg for females. Christiansen & Harris (2009) calculated an average weight of 255.6 kg for males (no average for females is presented). Finally, Wheeler & Jefferson (2009), using several formulas, found an average weight of 251 kg for males and 178 kg for females. The huge results of up to 500 kg came from the formulas of Anyonge (1993), but his results are invalid as he mixed the data of bears, dogs and cats, giving unreliable results (Christiansen & Harris, 2005). So, taking in count all the data, an average figure of about 250 kg for males and about 178 kg for females, are the most reliable.

You: Can you give me some more info on these cats.
Me: Yes, I can, but it will take time and it will depend of what data do you need.

You: I guess the articles I read should be out dated.
Me: 100% agree. Most of the sources in the internet came from old books, some of them even for children. If we want the true data, you most dig and dig, and like me, you will found that many statements in popular books and the internet, are just false, at any light.

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