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Forum rules
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 (12-26-2019, 10:12 AM)John Opiyo Wrote: I like the rules. The challenge I expect is that nature lovers at times think more with their hearts and not the mind. I will give an example. In the conflict between big cats and livestock farmers, farmers will at times kill the big cats to protect their livestock. When this gets out, people will curse the farmers and call them names, serious insults. Their hearts are at work at this time. However, the mind should tell them a few things. First, they are thousands of miles away and could not do anything at that time to save the cats. Secondly, calling people names could stir them against the cats even more. Lastly, had these people mean to kill the cats, non could have been in existence today because they have kept livestock in the range lands for very many years. The light however is that, after an incidence like that, people can brainstorm on what to do to avert similar situations in future. In such a debate, I would expect a lot of heat but/and objectivity to win. Rules bring order and I will stick with the rules. You are right in it, that it´s so easy to blame other people, especially when sitting in some "ivory tower" so, that him- herself has everything ok, seeing some big predator only in documentaries and maybe as a tourist while participating to some organized and safe trip with cameras and really nothing to worry about. Same time there are people, who need to work for their living with livestock and deal with dangers concerning tigers and lions. One interesting part is, that with what justification people from Europe and let´s say North-America are complaining. Central-Europe... there aren´t too many predators left, where are the wolves and bears? And so many other animals... people who won´t tolerate big predators among themselves should have a moment and think if they really should be so loud to judge others, when they have massacred their own fauna to extinction concerning so many species. Noth America and USA especially have pushed for instance brown bears and wolves to way smaller range than before. Luckily for these species there is Alaska and of course big neighbor Canada. When looking at lower 48 it´s ruthless, livestock is there priority 1 also and big predators have been killed. Then we have sad story of bison... etc. These are interesting things, without Russia most probably Finland wouldn´t have nowadays bears and wolves, in past we hunted these species to almost extinction here. Nowadays things are better, but a lot of work to do still. Reindeer owners, if up to them, would shoot any bear, wolf and wolverine on sight, especially wolves and wolverines. A lot of hate and heated discussions happen here too (Finland), when these animals are discussed. It´s challenging to find ways to live side by side with big predators, but hopefully good solutions can be found, while some individuals have to be killed sometimes in order to protect livestock and people. Finding certain kind of balance is difficult, but worth to try. Same thing as what comes to discussions here. I hope, that you like it here and can share your thoughts.
Lately in some occasions there have been a little bit things like "if this would be about a lion, then you would...." or "if this would be about a tiger, then you would....". It´s no secret, that people have preferences, that´s ok, there is nothing wrong in it. As long as it doesn´t lead to dismissing other animals in demeaning way or mocking others.
When in some thread there is criticism and/or debates, if your first idea is to start mocking or writing in a way I described above, take a deep breath, count to ten and think before writing. Don´t get offended like there would be some personal insult, when something you say is questioned. People simply can see things differently without nothing dramatic there. Moderators will act if someone starts to disrespect some animal in wildfact. No matter if it´s a tiger, a lion or a horse. Or whatever. If not right away (not noticed it yet for some reason), you can report a posting which you think to be offending/insulting in a wrong kind of way. That´s much better than diving into some argument so that heartbeat rate is 200 times/minute. Things have been ok for quite some time and looking good. So let´s keep it this way. When new members join in, remember that this isn´t a tiger forum, not a lion forum or a bear forum. All animals are respected and that is expected. And also taken care that it stay in that way. So you don´t need to be worried for your favorite animal here. Stay calm and focus to good information. 
Agreed in all respects.
This is a forum about those who make their home in the natural world, not us. Preference is a great drive, provided you use it to find good information. And remember reality always beats fiction. 
Everyone, we have seen a recent increase in people making the same post in multiple threads, especially when posting videos. The purposes for doing this can be varied, examples would be padding post counts, or attempting to increase views of your personal channel/page on another site.
As a result, the Wildfact Team have discussed this issue, and we are going to officially request that all users refrain from doing this. Please identify the thread you believe to be most pertinent to your particular post, and make the post in a single location only. Anyone who is observed doing this will be banned. The only exception to this will be when marketing the Wildfact site, once it has been discussed with a member of the team. Thank you for your continued cooperation, and do continue to enjoy the site!!
02-25-2023, 12:04 AM
( This post was last modified: 02-25-2023, 09:19 AM by sanjay
Edit Reason: Added peter's message as well
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Due to multiple instances of users bringing troubles from other sites to Wildfact, we are implementing a new rule.
From this point forward, every member of Wildfact importing problems created at other forums will be permanently banned right away. TO ALL MEMBERS WHO JOINED ANOTHER FORUM from peter: I'm not sure, but my guess is quite a few members of Wildfact joined another forum. Over there, some of them end up in 'debates'. Not seldom, these debates get out of hand. The most common result is animosity. Every now and then, it is moved to Wildfact. As it takes quite a bit of time to solve the problems deposited at the plate of the administrators and mods of Wildfact, a decision had to be taken. Meaning it stops right here. From now on, every member of Wildfact importing problems created at other forums will be permanently banned right away.
Everyone, moving forward, we are requesting everyone to make their posts in English. If you do not know English, some of us can help you in using an online translator, if needed. This will aid in getting more, and quicker, responses to your posts. Posts made in any language, other than English will be deleted, and repeated violations can lead to banning.
Please contact a member of the Mod team if you have any questions, or need any help. Thank you for your continued cooperation, so that everyone can continue to enjoy the site!! 
Everyone
As a result of some things that have come up recently, and after discussions amongst the Wildfact Team, we felt it necessary to bring this up. If a user is banned, or chooses to leave the forum for their own personal reasons, we are unable to delete or remove posts made by their account. While there can be several reasons for this, the primary reason would be the continuity of the site and historical accuracy. If a user is involved in a conversation, and then their comments are removed from that conversation, it will be very difficult, and in some cases impossible, for a new user, or someone simply going back through a thread, to follow along with that particular conversation. Therefore it is Wildfact policy that no such comments are able to be removed. Thank you everyone for the continued cooperation, and do continue enjoy the site! Regards Timbavati 
All
As a result of some recent confusion, we believe we should clarify the rules regarding new thread creation in the Lion section. In a majority of instances, it is likely a thread already exists for the topic a member may wish to discuss. So, we would ask that prior to creating a new thread all users verify that a thread pertaining to your desired topic does not already exists. In the rare instances that such a thread does not already exists, please check with any member of the Mod Team before creating a new thread. Any new threads created without this prior approval will be deleted, and repeated infractions to this rule can result in a member being placed on the Watch List, or even banned. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation in this matter, we in the Mod Team hope for your continued enjoyment of WildFact @BA0701 (08-29-2023, 08:53 AM)Timbavati Wrote: All Great job @Timbavati!
YUSUF
You recently contacted me in a PM. I responded and you sent another PM. When reading it, two of our mods told me you broke one of our rules (referring to the multiple account rule). The result was an automatic ban. As a result, our conversation was concluded. Here's a bit more about your response to my PM. In that PM, questions were asked. I didn't tell you it wasn't about (the answers to) these questions, but about something else. The result was interesting. I'm referring to your remarks about an internal affair (1) and a number of exceptional lions in southern Africa (2). About internal affairs One is internal affairs are internal. Two is you need to read everything that could be relevant before deciding for an opinion. Three is you do not address one of the co-owners of a forum about a decision. Guate and PC, both longtime members, broke a number of rules. I'm referring to (incorrect) assumptions, insults, deliberate misinformation and, last but not least, respect. The result was animosity. When trying to solve the problem, I was dismissed and that was the end of it. Over here, rules count. No exceptions. I repeat our aims are good information and respect. Respect for good info, other members and mods. If good advice is ignored and a warning has no effect, the result will be a ban or an invitation to move. Both Guate and PC got an invitation. For good reasons. About posting, measurements and references Over here, members posting about the size of big cats have to deliver sources. We prefer two, but a very reliable source will do in some cases. You know, but didn't deliver. Not in the forums you joined and it wasn't any different in your PM. Meaning it's very likely you're not going to change any time soon. Do we want to attract those involved in rumours and speculation or those interested in good information and willing to play by the book? About the difference between wild big cats and their relatives living in private reserves Wildfact is about wild big cats, not their captive relatives. We don't mind good info about the size of adult captive big cats, but the aim is good information about wild cats. With 'wild', we mean animals living in natural conditions. Is there, sizewise, a difference between wild lions and their relatives living in, say, private reserves (referring to southern Africa in particular)? The answer, published in a thesis published a few years ago, is affirmative. Is the difference significant? Affirmative again. Remember we're talking about a thesis, meaning the information used is reliable. I'll post the link in the lion extinction thread soon. In my PM, I informed you about the study. You didn't ask for a link, but decided for an opinion right away and continued about the giants like before. Meaning you're not that interested and also meaning trouble is to be expected. About the size of captive and wild big cats You know I measured (and weighed) captive big cats some years ago. Apart from that, I talked to those who hunted them a long time ago. I also interviewed trainers, vets, directors of facilities, biologists interested in big cats and conservators of natural history museums. All of them knew a few things about the size of wild (and captive) big cats. They, roughly, confirmed the information collected by reliable observers and hunters a century ago. A healthy adult male tiger or lion of 400 pounds (empty) and 9 feet in total length measured in a straight line with a steel tape is impressive. One of 9 feet 6 and 450-500 pounds is large and a 10 feet adult male well exceeding 500 pounds is quite something to behold. Every now and then, a male exceeds 10 feet 6 and 550 pounds empty. Exceptional males living in a hotspot with nice genes for extras can be even heavier (up to and slightly over 600 pounds), but they are few and far between. Any difference between lions and tigers? Not at the level of species (referring to the situation after tigers were extermined in Bali, the Caspian region and China), but subspecies seem to be more pronounced in tigers. Meaning the chance to find an exceptional individual in, say, Nepal, northern India, northeastern China and southeastern Russia is higher than in, say, southern Africa. That's, of course, without the exceptions. At the level of averages, lions top the table in the skull department, but tigers are a bit longer. All in all, I'd say there's not much to choose between both. About the size of lions in private reserves and the effect of hunting and conservation The main thing to remember is just about anything is possible in private reserves. I talked to a few experienced ranchers (cattle) living in the northwestern part of Europe and asked them how much time they would need to produce a big cat with an average of 650 pounds and 10 feet. More often than not, the result was a big smile. I can hear you say it's unlikely there're pronounced differences between wild lions and their relatives living in private reserves. Not so. Less competition, more food and better allround conditions have an effect. Compared to an average healthy adult Kruger male (about 420 pounds or 190 kg), an average male lion living in a private reserve is longer, taller, bigger and heavier. Read the thesis I referred to above. Same for tigers? Affirmative, both in captivity and in natural conditions. Example. In Wild Nepal, about a century ago, male tigers had about 4 inches (referring to total length measured 'over curves') on their relatives living in northern India. Back then, in that region, every inch added about 7 pounds. The cause? Tigers, apart from a few exceptions, were not hunted in Nepal, whereas they were in northern India. So much so, it had an effect. This happened in a few decades only. About the effect of conditions Have, for starters, a look at the Russian Far East and northeastern China. In the period 1992-2004 (referring to tigers captured in the Sichote-Alin Biosphere Reserve only), males (referring to young adults, adults and old tigers) ranged between 140-212 kg. The average of a limited number of males (including young adults) was about 9 feet 8 inches (total length measured 'over curves' with a flexible tape) and 176,4 kg (389 pounds). Two decades later, Feng Limin (a Chinese biologist who knows quite a bit about wild Amur tigers), in an interview, said a male of 270 kg (596 pounds) had been captured in northeastern China not so long ago. Another male was about 250 kg (552 pounds), whereas a male about 3 years of age arrested for domestic violence a few years ago was 225 kg (496 pounds). That's still without the Anyuisky (Khabarovsky Krai) male tigers leaving prints with a 'heel width' of 14-16 cm. These prints were measured by a young, but quite experienced, biologist (A. Gotvansky) in summer. Not once, but repeatedly. In different parts of the National Park, meaning they were left by different male tigers. The 'heel width' of an average adult male, for comparison, ranges between 10-12 cm. All this to suggest an average wild adult male Amur tiger today, sizewise, compares to an average male Pleistocene tiger? Negative, but it is very likely (assumption) an average adult male today is heavier than a few decades ago. Is the increase in weight at the level of averages (another assumption) a result of protection and reasonable, if not quite favourable, conditions? No question (no assumption). And lions? Not so long ago, wild adult male Kruger lions averaged 187,5 kg (a bit over 413 pounds) on an empty stomach, but it could be closer to 190 kg (420 pounds) today. At about 9 feet in total length measured 'between pegs' (about 9.6 'over curves'), we're talking about an impressive big wild cat. The Kruger has different districts with different conditions. Conditions that can have an effect on the average weight of adult male lions. Some years ago, in one district, males averaged about 200 kg (442 pounds). In another district, they averaged 185 kg (409 pounds). The difference, biologists thought, was a result of a disease. In large parts of the Amur region (returning to tigers), wild boars were decimated by a disease. The result was tigers had to find alternative food sources. Deer qualify, but the population density is lower. Furthermore, deer are more aware of their surroundings, meaning tigers had to follow an additional course. Expensive, meaning youngsters in particular started struggling. All in all, one could conclude the disease, energywise, resulted in more investment for a lower return for tigers. Experienced adults were able to cope, but it was a different story for youngsters. The number of conflicts between them and locals, as was to be expected, sharply increased. Did the deteriorating conditions affect the health of tigers in the Russian Far East? More than likely. Will it affect the number of tigers and the average weight of adults? More than likely as well. What I'm saying is the average size of a population of large carnivores depends on many factors. Some are known (conditions and genes), but many are not. Why is it lions and tigers trying to make a living in quite unfavourable conditions (referring to semi-desertlike districts and regions) are consistently longer and taller (referring to recent information) than their relatives living in hotspots? Why is it big cats living in a meat paradise tend to develop in the department of robustness in particular? And why is this not the case in captive big cats? Anyhow. Wild male lions and tigers (of large subspecies) living in hotspots average 175-210 kg (on an empty stomach), perhaps (depending on the conditions) a bit more or less in some districts. Very large individuals (referring to reliable records only) are 25-35% (up to 50%) heavier, meaning the 'normal' maxima range between 225-290 kg (empty) roughly. That's still without the occasional 'freak'. Assuming a large male is able to eat about 30-40 kg of meat in one siting, records of 300-335 kg fully loaded can't be excluded out of hand. In captive big cats, weightwise, just about anything is possible. The most probably reason is (the information in) genes is lost or sidelined. Big carnivores seem to be very flexible is this department. In the heavyweight division, tigers of large subspecies most probably dominate, but most probably is different from always. You just never know. The reason wild male tigers of large subspecies reach 500 pounds empty more often is they are solitary (assumption). For solitary carnivores, it pays to be more flexible because conditions are very variable at the best of times. For individuals, it's about being able to adapt quickly. Speed. Lions face sudden changes as well, but they are social carnivores. If, say, a coalition with a combined weight of 1000 kg is needed to defend a territory in a hotspot in favourable conditions and about a quarter of that will suffice in more challenging conditions, chances are the combined weight of the coalition will decrease as a result of competition (between coalitions or between members within a coalition). If they don't adapt (assumption), the result will be starvation for all. That and the loss of a kingdom. Lions, in other words, respond as fast as tigers, but they operate at the level of coalitions (or prides). Budget cuts are realized in a, say, ehh, more personal way, but if you insist on 'ruthless', I wouldn't object. To conclude Based on what I saw, my guess is you'll continue to find a 'suitable' forum in order to interact with others interested in (the maximum size of) big cats. It's quite likely this attempt will produce a result that compares to the results of the previous attempts. The reasons were discussed in this post. Our advice is to continue your quest, but to accept the rules of engagement from now on. Meaning you need to produce solid evidence for every measurement and weight you post. When possible, add information about the reserve in which the cat was captured, add names and, last but not least, inform members about the conditions and the number of prides and coalitions. Stay away from 'debates' and never ever lecture another member, a mod or a forum owner (or co-owner). Treat your neighbours well at all times and open up when good information is presented. As to preference. The advice is to do it at home, not at a public forum. If preference enters, the result can only be selection. You, of all people, know selection and misinformation are great friends. A few decades ago, biologists decided to sideline information collected by hunters as 'unreliable'. They entered the forest with 400-pound (referring to India) or 500-pound (referring to Nepal) scales. As large males often bottomed the scale, the result was weights based on regression (...). That, confusion and countless discussions. Not a few members of forums more or less compare in that they too are quite involved in preconceived ideas. If interested in giving it another try in a few months from now, remember to start with the rules of engagement (and the multiple account rule in particular). Our advice is to use your own name when you join a forum. Good luck. |
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