Felids Interactions - Interspecific Conflicts

[paul cooper]

(04-21-2019, 03:02 PM)Sanju Wrote:

(04-21-2019, 01:31 PM)paul cooper Wrote: Sanju. A tiger may attack a lion or a leopard because he feels his resources or cubs are threatened, which they may very well be with a lion lingering around.

Exactly, that's what I said. In inter-species competition, they do fight and also kill sometimes but that totally depends on interaction and situation. It shouldn't be confused with territorial display which happens only with other individuals of own species for mating.

(04-21-2019, 01:31 PM)paul cooper Wrote: And cats do and can fight for territories, trust me, they wont want to share a scent mark in their territory with another cat.

What you are saying applies to conspecies. Two different animals can't communicate through vocalizations or scent markings. I'm tired of saying about this again n again. You can visit Lion n Tiger coexistence thread. I provided information what researchers and biologists stated. It happened before and will happen if given chance.

If you think leopards mate with tigers then, tigers and lions or other big cats have territories b/w them. I'll leave it to your knowledge.

In ecology different type of species populations make up a community. A community of animals function in a particular niche of an ecosystem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_(ecology)

I never said that leopards mate with tigers and lions. Did you read what i said? A cat won't tolerate another cats scent in his territory. It has nothing to do with mating, it has to do with territoriality and might over his resources, to the animal living in a territory, he perceives it the same way. Fights will happen. Just like you see tigers killing leopards. Areas where there are high densities of tigers, leopards do not survive there, most likely due to the reason that it cannot survive and reproduce.

All cats scent mark, all cats hold territories and do have similar niches. A lion will go out scent marking territory, a tiger will not tolerate that in his territory and it counts as a territorial right. A tigress cannot find a mate anymore, and so on. Reply

[Sanju]

(04-27-2019, 10:43 AM)paul cooper Wrote: I never said that leopards mate with tigers and lions. Did you read what i said?

I didn't allege, you said that. I just asked a question to you "can tiger and leopard mate ?" it is based on your answer to that question it can be decided about inter-specific territoriality b/w big cats. Don't take it other way without understanding.

@paul cooper Big cats can communicate "inter-specifically" through scent marking/rubbing ?

Territoriality (whether territories or home ranges) is a mode of animal communication. It is shown very small minority of animal species. Big cats can't communicate inter-specifically by no means (vocalizations, body odor- facial sebaceous glands/urine scents or body postures/gestures/cues).

"Inter-specific" communication exists "only" in some animals like prey or social animals communities like in alarming or distress calls to alert each other, threatening or defense display; Prey-predator & Predator-prey. Inter-species territoriality too occur only in few animal species but not in "most" of the mammals inc. cats.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_communication

(P.S. Humans, domesticated animals/pets & captive/circus/zoo or trained animals under supervision of humans not to included be inter-species communication when considering wild animals here) Reply

[paul cooper]

(04-27-2019, 11:30 AM)Sanju Wrote:

(04-27-2019, 10:43 AM)paul cooper Wrote: I never said that leopards mate with tigers and lions. Did you read what i said?

I didn't alleged, you said that. I just asked a question to you "can tiger and leopard mate ?" it is based on your answer to that question it can be decided about inter-specific territoriality. Don't take it other way without understanding.

@paul cooper Big cats can communicate "inter-specifically" through scent marking ?

Again, I never said that they are mating. A tigress wont know a male tiger is in a territory if she cant smell him.


Yount think male lions or male tigers are possessive over territory and scent mark or what? Marking your scent over another cats scent is basically me coming and picking a fight with you. Direct aggression. These cats cannot live together in the same area - period. Reply

[Sanju]

(04-27-2019, 11:39 AM)paul cooper Wrote: Again, I never said that they are mating.

Frustrating to say this again and again. How many times I should tell? 
"I just asked a question" and let you decide ...

(04-27-2019, 11:39 AM)paul cooper Wrote: A tigress wont know a male tiger is in a territory if she cant smell him. You think male lions or male tigers are possessive over territory and scent mark.

Both are true towards conspecies.

(04-27-2019, 11:39 AM)paul cooper Wrote: Marking your scent over another cats scent is basically me coming and picking a fight with you. Direct aggression. These cats cannot live together in the same area - period.

Why do a leopard even smell a lion's scent mark when it doesn't belong to its species ? It don't even know what message it carries, they both have different pheromones, nasal receptors and metabolisms totally. Above all, it don't want any mating rights over female or male lions. Each species evolve differently both physically n neurologically and have their own cognitive and communication skills and that's what make them different species.

What's the meaning of these plain statements? Does this has any scientific support or basis? Till date, there are no journals or documents that wild cats (not domestic) can communicate "inter-specifically" by any means or territorially rival each other... Territorial aggression and conflicts (b/w conspecies) are different from "interference competitive" aggression, interactions and conflicts. Don't merge them coz it feels apt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competitio...terference

(P.S. I have a doubt: Can you distinguish animal species by smelling its urine without practice and training with only unconditional instincts which comes from birth?)

(04-27-2019, 11:39 AM)paul cooper Wrote: Direct aggression.

Yes, it is a usual thing that happen when two sympatric competitors or partially diet overlapping species confront coz it may steal kills/kill cubs of other species/compete for prey animals.

Wolf interactions with American black bears are very rare, because of differences in habitat preferences. Interactions are rare as sometimes both can survive in other habitats too if they have to and during occasional ventures to other habitats by chance. Likewise, Tiger-Lion. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf#Enemi...ompetitors)

Even if they opt to live in same place despite habitat preferences. What's special in tiger and lion, bears and wolves fight-kill-compete but still coexist or live in same place through out 3 continents and arctic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competitio...erspecific

(04-27-2019, 11:39 AM)paul cooper Wrote: These cats cannot live together in the same area - period.

It is a well known n established fact they lived together which everybody knows. So, I no need prove anything to anyone. They have no problem to do that if they have to and scientists and experts are inclined to that. When given space nature always bounce back, all you need to do is step aside and let the nature take over.

---

See, if you "don't like" or "believe" or "accept" or "whatever" the idea of reintroduction or ecology of coexistence then leave it alone or ignore like Rishi doing and stick to your opinion. Nobody will object that coz it's your opinion but don't quote me again. Reply

[Luipaard]

Leopard with wild dog kill

*This image is copyright of its original author

Reply

[Luipaard]

Leopard v mugger crocodile

*This image is copyright of its original author

Shows you how easily it overpowered a similiar sized crocodile Reply

[Sanju]

@Luipaard where exactly (reserve) did that happen in the terai arc ? Reply

[Luipaard]

(05-01-2019, 01:16 AM)Sanju Wrote: @Luipaard where exactly (reserve) did that happen in the terai arc ?

Uploader doesn't mention where this is happening, but I'm pretty sure those are water buffaloes so I guess that's a Sri Lankan leopard? Reply

[smedz]

(05-01-2019, 01:16 AM)Sanju Wrote: @Luipaard where exactly (reserve) did that happen in the terai arc ?

It looks to be in Sri Lanka, the surroundings just look more like the Sri Lankan landscape to me. Reply

[Sanju]

(05-01-2019, 01:56 AM)Luipaard Wrote: Uploader doesn't mention where this is happening, but I'm pretty sure those are water buffaloes so I guess that's a Sri Lankan leopard?

oh, so its buffalo subspecies migona descendants of the introduced domestic stock. So, certainly, lanka leopard (southern most yala NP, for sure undoubtedly). @smedz Reply

[Shadow]

(05-01-2019, 12:30 AM)Luipaard Wrote: Leopard v mugger crocodile

*This image is copyright of its original author

Shows you how easily it overpowered a similiar sized crocodile

Just that I understand right, that video and that photo are from different cases. So there is one case, where both seem to disperse. And then a photo from another fight which is showing one moment of fight, but not result of it. Right? Reply

[Luipaard]

(05-01-2019, 12:16 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(05-01-2019, 12:30 AM)Luipaard Wrote: Leopard v mugger crocodile

*This image is copyright of its original author

Shows you how easily it overpowered a similiar sized crocodile

Just that I understand right, that video and that photo are from different cases. So there is one case, where both seem to disperse. And then a photo from another fight which is showing one moment of fight, but not result of it. Right?

I'm not sure if these are two different interactions. Even if it is, both crocodiles are decent sized. What I find amazing in that video is the situation the leopard is in; it's predating on a dangerous foe that's its own size while being harassed by even more dangerous water buffaloes. Still had everything under control. Reply

[Shadow]

(05-01-2019, 03:44 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(05-01-2019, 12:16 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(05-01-2019, 12:30 AM)Luipaard Wrote: Leopard v mugger crocodile

*This image is copyright of its original author

Shows you how easily it overpowered a similiar sized crocodile

Just that I understand right, that video and that photo are from different cases. So there is one case, where both seem to disperse. And then a photo from another fight which is showing one moment of fight, but not result of it. Right?

I'm not sure if these are two different interactions. Even if it is, both crocodiles are decent sized. What I find amazing in that video is the situation the leopard is in; it's predating on a dangerous foe that's its own size while being harassed by even more dangerous water buffaloes. Still had everything under control.

Yes big cats can do well with crocodiles especially when smaller crocs are on dry land or shallow water. But it looked like in that video, that both had had enough in the end. Croc did bite leopard to front leg and leopard then again bite on backside of neck of the crocodile, so inconvenient for both :) Reply

[Luipaard]

(05-01-2019, 04:18 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(05-01-2019, 03:44 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(05-01-2019, 12:16 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(05-01-2019, 12:30 AM)Luipaard Wrote: Leopard v mugger crocodile

*This image is copyright of its original author

Shows you how easily it overpowered a similiar sized crocodile

Just that I understand right, that video and that photo are from different cases. So there is one case, where both seem to disperse. And then a photo from another fight which is showing one moment of fight, but not result of it. Right?

I'm not sure if these are two different interactions. Even if it is, both crocodiles are decent sized. What I find amazing in that video is the situation the leopard is in; it's predating on a dangerous foe that's its own size while being harassed by even more dangerous water buffaloes. Still had everything under control.

Yes big cats can do well with crocodiles especially when smaller crocs are on dry land or shallow water. But it looked like in that video, that both had had enough in the end. Croc did bite leopard to front leg and leopard then again bite on backside of neck of the crocodile, so inconvenient for both :)

Assuming that the video and image are different interactions, I doubt that the leopard would've stopped the attack. It was clearly dominating the 'fight'... Reply

[Shadow]

(05-01-2019, 04:30 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(05-01-2019, 04:18 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(05-01-2019, 03:44 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(05-01-2019, 12:16 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(05-01-2019, 12:30 AM)Luipaard Wrote: Leopard v mugger crocodile

*This image is copyright of its original author

Shows you how easily it overpowered a similiar sized crocodile

Just that I understand right, that video and that photo are from different cases. So there is one case, where both seem to disperse. And then a photo from another fight which is showing one moment of fight, but not result of it. Right?

I'm not sure if these are two different interactions. Even if it is, both crocodiles are decent sized. What I find amazing in that video is the situation the leopard is in; it's predating on a dangerous foe that's its own size while being harassed by even more dangerous water buffaloes. Still had everything under control.

Yes big cats can do well with crocodiles especially when smaller crocs are on dry land or shallow water. But it looked like in that video, that both had had enough in the end. Croc did bite leopard to front leg and leopard then again bite on backside of neck of the crocodile, so inconvenient for both :)

Assuming that the video and image are different interactions, I doubt that the leopard would've stopped the attack. It was clearly dominating the 'fight'...

Well, when having front leg in mouth of crocodile it can be seen in different ways and I doubt, that leopard is so eager to attack when leg is finally released :) It is a bit unclear which one made attack, I don´t see too many reasons why a leopard would continue fight especially if it was under attack in first place. Quite difficult to make big conclusions when seeing only a glimpse of something. But at least both were biting there each others for longer time and in the end I didn´t see either one anymore so eager to continue. Looked like bot were thinking that not worth it anymore. Reply