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Felids Interactions - Interspecific Conflicts
Felids Interactions - Interspecific Conflicts
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Felids Interactions - Interspecific Conflicts
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 (04-21-2019, 03:45 PM)Shadow Wrote: I was briefly looking this conversation, I didn´t now understand what was the point with these maps? Or is there some particular part in that linked document, where was said something about territorial behaviour of these animals?Why leopards are there where lions are living ? Aren't lions "TERRITORIAL ANIMALS" ??? Lions should kill all the leopards in the protected areas and leopards should live outside PA's right ?  (04-21-2019, 04:15 PM)Sanju Wrote:(04-21-2019, 03:45 PM)Shadow Wrote: I was briefly looking this conversation, I didn´t now understand what was the point with these maps? Or is there some particular part in that linked document, where was said something about territorial behaviour of these animals?Why leopards are there where lions are living ? Aren't lions "TERRITORIAL ANIMALS" ??? Lions should kill all the leopards in the protected areas and leopards should live outside PA's right ? I can read even without capital letters, thank you :) Well, animal behavior is always a complex matter and one of the easiest to see contradictions in many ways. I am more curious about different opinions and reasoning. Putting just maps and links "blank" on message, but not telling what is tried to show or explain with those makes curious. I can see your point, but as Rishi is saying, there are different kind of studies and opinions too. Interesting issue and maybe a bit about it too, that do people mean same thing when talking about territorial behavior.  (04-21-2019, 04:12 PM)Sanju Wrote: Coexistence of the tiger and the common leopard Don't bring the discussions back into a same loop. We just covered this; flagship predators coexist with co-predators because the direct competition is less. Gir, Tanzania etc. will have leopards because the prey availablity is so high that leopards, wild-dogs, hyenas far outbreed the ones being killed. Nonetheless, it is well established (see the studies before) that they do get pushed out in the long-term due to high presence of larger predators. But in short-term, while a leopard wouldn't confront a dominant tiger for taking sole ownership of the territory, a lion-pair would be tempted to do so (dhole are known to try with tigresses too). That's the same reason chimpanzees survived homo sapiens, but neanderthals or desnovians didn't. Direct competition between comparable species of similar niches. Leopards will keep coexisting with tigers ...& jungle cats will do so in even greater numbers, no matter how many of both the tigers kill off. But lions may cause unforeseen complications. It's not like we have studies available from 500 years ago. I once pointed out that tigers were commonly depicted in pairs in classical Rajput paintings of arid western India, which could have been a behavioural adaptation due to lions, if accurate.  *This image is copyright of its original author
I put these here just to show, that territory as a term can be many things:
https://web.stanford.edu/group/stanfordbirds/text/essays/Interspecific_Terr.html https://www.researchgate.net/publication/273238046_The_Ecological_Consequences_of_Interspecific_Territorial_Behavior_in_Birds So my point is, that in this matter there can be difficult to find one and only truth. And what comes to lions and tigers for instance, maybe and hopefully time will tell us how their coexistence happens. I say hopefully because I hope, that in future there would be more lions and tigers in India than today, but time will tell. This is quote from that stanfor link: "Generally such interspecific territoriality occurs between species that are very similar -- as might be expected if territoriality is a way of guarding resources or mates." (04-21-2019, 04:51 PM)Shadow Wrote: I put these here just to show, that territory as a term can be many things:What you said is right. A good example indeed. But that is observed in b/w birds that too in a few species in this vast avian diversity coz almost all bird species can recognize their own species and stick to intra specific territoriality. Albeit, there is no evidence that Lion and Tiger had the same behavior like those birds when they coexisted coz their interaction is never documented in the wild. But there is complete evidence that they coexisted for tens of thousands of years undoubtedly and that didn't happen without any strategy. Can you give such examples for mammals (interspecific territoriality) as they are more intelligent and have cognitive skills than birds to distinguish their conspecies (of course some birds are one of the most intelligent animals on the planet but not all) ? (04-21-2019, 05:11 PM)Sanju Wrote:(04-21-2019, 04:51 PM)Shadow Wrote: I put these here just to show, that territory as a term can be many things:What you said is right. A good example indeed. But that is observed in b/w birds that too in a few species in this vast avian diversity. I just pointed out why this matter is difficult one if trying to say, that there is only one true point of view. Everyone can of course think for instance, what kind of reasons are there in Russian far east preventing tigers and wolves to coexist in same area while brown and black bears live there side by side. What kind of reasons can be found behind it, that tigers expel wolves but not some other animals. One reason of course is, that not able to do something even if wanting to. (04-21-2019, 05:11 PM)Sanju Wrote:(04-21-2019, 04:51 PM)Shadow Wrote: I put these here just to show, that territory as a term can be many things:What you said is right. A good example indeed. But that is observed in b/w birds that too in a few species in this vast avian diversity coz almost all bird species can recognize their own species and stick to intra specific territoriality. I just checked briefly, no time now to look closer, but here one link concerning mammals: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00290776 (04-21-2019, 05:18 PM)Shadow Wrote: One reason of course is, that not able to do something even if wanting to.Obviously, tigers don't confuse other tigers with wolves like those birds species. It is because of competition not interspecific territoriality. Brown and black bears are omnivores and amur leopards are not entirely sympatric with tiger. Strategies b/w them make their co occurrence possible but wolves didn't yet developed such adaptations to cope with tigers in the same area during evolution but they may develop in future like other predators did or may not. Same thing happened to saber toothed cats and many pleistocene mega predators due to competitive exclusion. That's why they are no more today but tigers and leopards co evolved to coexist till today. So, are lions and tigers until 19th century before man separated them and that didn't happen naturally. (04-21-2019, 05:27 PM)Sanju Wrote:(04-21-2019, 05:18 PM)Shadow Wrote: One reason of course is, that not able to do something even if wanting to.Obviously, tigers don't confuse other tigers with wolves like those birds species. It is because of competition not interspecific territoriality. Those were just examples about some things, which can be seen in many ways. Some would agree with you, some disagree. Main point is, that if you try to say, that only your definition about territorial behavior is how it is, you walk same time in deep swamp and get stuck in it. Animal behavior is so different thing, than discussing about weights and sizes of animals or bones. Everyone just have to tolerate, that not always able to find consensus when there is a coin with two sides 
@Rishi This is not one way traffic. The same thing can go around too. Other AWD, Cheetahs, Leopards, Hyenas will also do the same thing and limit lion population in that area. May be not directly but kill infants, lion cubs and sick or injured or old ones or solo ones. Lions are not bosses which will dominate and out compete all others. Nobody is out competing or outbreeding anyone. Prey availabilty affects the same on the lions like it is doing on other predators.
In gir and tanzania if prey is low, so is the lion population not only leopards. lion population also wont be big when prey is low so that they can't dominate leopards and there is no need for leopards too for high prey numbers to outbreed them. Equilibrium achieve accordingly with source but don't collapse. If there is low prey base then both lion and leopard populations will be low, it don't affect only leopards so that lions can domiante.
@Shadow Tell me one thing ... Aren't all experts (pls no guj) favoring Lion - Tiger Coexistence ? True or False ? I'm just on experts side. :) Am I wrong
 Every one is backing up their opinions but I made experts opinion as mine. (04-21-2019, 05:51 PM)Sanju Wrote: @Shadow Tell me one thing ... Aren't all experts (pls no guj) favoring Lion - Tiger Coexistence ? True or False ? I'm just on experts side. :) Am I wrong Coexistence of tigers and lions is another issue naturally. I don´t see in that anything so special because that has been situation before. They of course handle it as they do, I have no idea if that causes territorial fights or food competition disputes time to time. It seems to be so, that no-one really knows how these animals do it because there are no texts from those times giving some hints. But since both were doing well before human interference it feels obvious, that they are able to do it again if they get chance. I was commenting now about territorial behavior and that it can be targeted also to other species. In that I think, that you were ignoring some relevant things in your comments. (04-21-2019, 09:21 PM)Shadow Wrote: But since both were doing well before human interference it feels obvious, that they are able to do it again if they get chance.That's what biologists saying ... Territorial or not what you above said is fact. (04-21-2019, 09:21 PM)Shadow Wrote: I was commenting now about territorial behavior and that it can be targeted also to other species. In that I think, that you were ignoring some relevant things in your comments.yeah, you gave some good examples. I appreciate that. In ethology, territory is the sociographical area that an animal of a particular species consistently defends against conspecifics (or, occasionally, animals of other species). I know this but I'm talking about only big cats not all other animals like birds and rodents. Leopard is the closest relative to lion and they don't hybridize, can't communicate neither show inter-species territoriality. Then, analogically it is obvious that tigers being distant member of the genus too has the same things. Ofcourse nobody actually saw or know that. Still you did good job by giving example (rodent) (I saw birds example before :) when I was researching about territorial behavior of animals but didn't consider as I didn't find such examples with big cats). Jai hind. (04-21-2019, 09:59 PM)Sanju Wrote:(04-21-2019, 09:21 PM)Shadow Wrote: But since both were doing well before human interference it feels obvious, that they are able to do it again if they get chance.That's what biologists saying ... Territorial or not what you above said is fact. Here is another example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22127502 That is about gibbons. I have to say, that I haven´t looked so close this subject and how much can be found if spending some time. But anyway what comes to lions and tigers of course it would be very interesting to see how it goes in reality. (04-21-2019, 11:31 PM)Shadow Wrote: Here is another example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22127502Yeah, thanks. 
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