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peter · 08-11-2016, 09:22 PM

It's human-animal conflicts nearly everywhere, especially when big cats are involved. Animals, as always, pay. Today, lions suffer in particular, perhaps more than tigers. One reason is quite many tigers are monitored, whereas lions and jaguars (yes, they too) are not. The time to include them in programs definitely has arrived.

These desert lions, by the way, test everyone with outspoken ideas on the relation between habitat and size in big cats. I mean, if they are not on the run to avoid twolegs, they try to find and contact prey animals. This in a very large area and circumstances that would test the very best. For large-sized social hunters like lions, this way of life should result in more or less permanent energy deficits. In spite of that, desert lions definitely compare to Kruger lions. Remarkable.

I saw a few documentaries on Etosha lions. Many of those interested in size focus on Ngorogoro lions, but Etosha lions could be as large, if not larger. Sizewise, southwest Africa seems to be a lion hotspot. The circumstances, however, are far from excellent.

Pckts · 08-11-2016, 09:33 PM

I posted this info a while back

From Looking for Lions
"Some of the largest lions I've seen, and also talking to people around Botswana - the lions in the Kalahari are some of the biggest. I can't speak personally of East Africa because i havent been there. One of the males I collared south in the Delta was quite large, but the females higher up in the Delta, in the really swampy areas, are defintely of smaller stature, but they have impressive muscular builds which we assume is from wading in the water and the sand. I have heard other guides/travellers comment on this as well. Sounds like an awesome trip you are taking! Hope you enjoy!"

Here is a nice little write up on them
http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/animals...hari-lions

This is where I think people have debates on "who's larger"

The kalahari lion is said to be tall and lean compared to a lions like Ngorongoro who are said to be bulky.

I compare it to Kahnas males in Mukki (Bheema and Kingfisher)
Kingfisher is said to be bulky but bheema is said to be larger in frame. I guess it comes down to what you consider "large"
Is it Bulk or Frame?
Ranthambhore males look very tall and lean where Kaziranga males look shorter and bulky.

peter · 08-11-2016, 10:09 PM

The remark on lion size in southwestern Africa in my previous post is not based on observations of others: it's based on information in peer-reviewed documents. The averages I found say lions in southwestern Africa are a bit larger than elsewhere.

However. I agree many underestimate long and lean animals and overestimate bulky animals. In tigers, there's a strong relation between body length and weight. This is why tigers in northern India and Nepal are heavier than elsewhere. Bulky individuals could be as heavy as they suggest, but at the level of averages it's about length in the end. The reason is length, apart from genes, is related to age. Chitwan clearly says adult tigers keep on growing after they reached adulthood. They also often get more 'dense' with growing age. This means a long animal generally has more room to express density with growing age. It also means it's expressed in more than one way. In long-lived predators, for this reason, one would expect to see a strong relation between age, length and weight: the larger the animal, the stronger the relation.

Based on what I have, I'd say this is true for most large predators. The strongest relation is seen in bears. Adult males, that is to say animals of 9-10 years of age and over, usually are much heavier than younger males of similar size. One would expect to see something similar in big cats, although less outspoken because bears are longer-lived and larger (more robust and heavier).

Based on what I saw in skulls, I'd say this could be quite close. Skulls of old males usually are heavier, or relatively heavier, than longer skulls of younger animals. It's seen in every tiger subspecies, usually more in males than in females. The reason is females are quite a bit smaller. I didn't see it in skulls only. In one of the many leopard threads, a table was published on the relation between age, length and weight some time ago. To keep it short: the differences between the age-groups were quite pronounced. One would expect to find a stronger relation in lions and tigers, as they are larger.

That, however, still leaves the question as to why lions living in difficult conditions are larger than lions in other parts of Africa. I'm not saying habitat and access to food have no effect on size at all, but it apparently isn't the only deciding factor. Not in lions.

Gamiz · 08-11-2016, 11:33 PM

(08-11-2016, 10:09 PM)peter Wrote: That, however, still leaves the question as to why lions living in difficult conditions are larger than lions in other parts of Africa. I'm not saying habitat and access to food have no effect on size at all, but it apparently isn't the only deciding factor. Not in lions.

Maybe because the coalitions are low compared with the other parts of Africa,

Pckts · 08-12-2016, 12:52 AM

I wish @dr.panthera was still posting here, I'd love to ask him about the difficulties that desert lions have in finding prey compared to others.
My assumption would be genetics, I have a hard time understanding what need a desert lion would need to be longer, taller and leaner unless they need to run faster over a longer period of time and thus a long stride with less muscle and fat to eat up oxygen would be needed.

Maybe large populations just come down to "time and place"
Genetics of a large powerful male that is passed down through coalition members that are unchallenged could perpetuate the cycle of large males, who knows.
It's an interesting characteristic.
It's not like the ngorongoro and delta where we could try and pin point reasons they might be larger than the others, these against all odds shouldn't be able to compare. Too much data needs to be accumulated before we can come to any conclusions.

Pckts · 08-12-2016, 12:53 AM

(07-07-2016, 03:30 AM)Dr Panthera Wrote: A male of 200 kg and a female of 154 kg and they do not seem to be the largest lions around.
Impressive how lions living in a desert environment with poor prey biomass rival in size lions from the best habitats elsewhere in Africa with much higher prey density.
Which again points to the importance of genetic make up versus conditions in relation to size, in other words where conditions are great the lion ( or other big cats ) population thrive as a whole with all lions small and big.
Large big cats are reported from many areas with relatively poor prey base : Lions from the Namibian desert, Mount Kenya, and historically the Atlas mountains, tigers from the Amur region and the Caspian region, leopards from Namibia and the central African rainforests, cheetahs from Namibia.

He does speak of what I am saying as well though...

Gamiz · 08-14-2016, 12:25 AM

From Desert Lion Conservation Foundation

Thank you
We are still coming to terms with the loss of the four Musketeers, but the support we’ve received from all of you has been a huge consolidation.
So we would like to take this moment to thank everyone who has donated to and helped with our cause over the past few months.
One of the main reasons for setting up our Foundation was the conflict that arose between the ‘Five Musketeers’ and the rural villages in the Gomatum Valley of the Puros Conservancy. The villages here have been in conflict with lions for many years. Amongst others, Xpl-73 “Rosh”, the father of the Musketeers, and Xpl-68 “Terrace Male” both became victims of human-lion conflict in this area.
With their arrival in the Gomatum valley we knew what fate could await the ‘Five Musketeers’. For many months scientist Dr Philip Stander tried everything he could to keep the Musketeers and the people with their livestock safe. Remarkably, there were few livestock losses, and these were mostly away from the villages and kraals, when cattle roamed freely at night. The village of ‘Tomakas’ was committed to protect their livestock by keeping them in kraals overnight and letting their cattle graze away from where the lions rested during the day. A farmer from this village was trained and employed as a lion guardian, who kept the lions away from the rural villages on numerous occasions and played a key role in protecting both the livestock and the lions.
Thanks to all the funds we received from you, we were able to provide our lion guardian ‘Rodney Tjavara’, with a year’s salary, satellite communication, a tent and other camping gear. With assistance from The Desert Lion Trust and TOSCO (Tourism for Conservation) he was also equipped with solar power, a uniform, and a digital camera. What is now desperately needed is a 4×4 field vehicle to get a ‘rapid response team’ going.
Rodney had just gotten to know the Five Musketeers, the lions he had come to guard and protect. He remembered their ‘names’ and was able to observe them on several occasions, already forming a bond with these formidable lions. As a farmer himself, Rodney is part of the difficulties the rural communities face with having to live side by side with lions. Livestock is their livelihood and when predators take one, it is a huge loss for which they seldom get compensated. But he also understands the necessity and benefit of having lions in the Gomatum Valley. Thanks to the Five Musketeers, Tomakas village started to receive direct ‘benefits’ from ecotourism.
However, after the first unfortunate incident where one of the Musketeers was shot and three others injured, the conflict didn’t come to an end. For several understandable reasons the four Musketeers remained in the conflict area and eventually the situation became unmanageable.
A large coalition of male lions like the Musketeers had never been recorded and studied before in the Namib Desert. Everything about the Five Musketeers was therefore unknown territory. Philip gained an extensive amount of knowledge whilst following the males, from when they were born until the moment they got killed. It is a great loss for the population and an enormous tragedy, but the Musketeers taught us invaluable lessons about their kind and how to mitigate human-lion conflict in the desert. As they used to be trusting lions that were habituated to the presence of vehicles, we were able to study them closely during this conflict situation, which presented Philip with valuable information.
They will be greatly missed by many…
Now we have to fight for the only surviving Musketeer “Tullamore” and the rest of the small population. To make sure they have a future…

Gamiz · 08-14-2016, 12:27 AM

From the Desert Lion Conservation Project

12 Aug 2016. Recovered. The adult male Xpl-93 made a full recovery from the prolonged immobilisation during the translocation from Tomakas. He has been feeding on the Oryx carcass and has started exploring the area around the Uniab Delta.

© Desert Lion Conservation