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Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences

Switzerland Spalea Offline
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#46

@Pckts :

About #19: Your two photos in profil show the same posture of a male tiger and male lion. Both seem identical.

Inside the Wildfact forum I have never so much compared photos of our two famous big cats. In profil but frontal shots too, as we see them walking towards us. Because I must admit: the cross section of the tiger's front legs, front paws, seems  and is wider.

Being very difficult and hazardous two find two identical photos as you make perfectly well, @Pckts , I prefer, by lazziness, to post two shematical sketchs:


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author


Sorry too, they are not exactly to the same scale.

But by comparing them at this posture, I really think the tiger's paws are wider, and the lion's paws "dryer". Having both a body with 0% fat, if we made an analogy among the olympic athletes, the tiger would be a 100 meters runner (Yohan Blake, Tyson Gay) the lion a long distance runner (Saouid Aouita). Mind you ! I made an analogy in terms
of morphology, I don't say the lion is a long runner compared to tiger. 

I encourage you to compare two photos showing the both cats in this posture. It's enough striking (more than in my sketchs).
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United States Pckts Offline
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#47

Great sketches, I'll look to see if I have a lion head on, I know I have a tiger.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
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United States tigerluver Offline
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#48
( This post was last modified: 06-03-2017, 04:16 AM by tigerluver )

Nasal Aperture Area in Cats

*This image is copyright of its original author

The above shows the relative nasal aperture area to body mass ratio of a lot of cat species. Those who fall above the lions have more nasal aperture area relatively and vice versa for those below. A proportiontaly larger nasal aperture area would be indicative of higher air intake per mass, and in a sense more efficient breathing. Lions and cheetahs, from the big cats, are the more efficient breathers. That makes sense considering the more cursorial lifestyle. The jaguar, on the other hand, was below average. Such is perhaps explained by it being a stocky, short burst predator generally easily and quickly overpowering its usual prey.
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Switzerland Spalea Offline
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#49


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author




It's the first time I post two pictures from the website... That's easy !

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author


Of course you don't know how these photo will appear, one close to the other, when they will be uploaded. Nevertheless we can see the tiger's front limbs seem to be a little bit more "compact".
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Switzerland Spalea Offline
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#50


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Indisputably , by disregarding their weights (this tiger is bigger), a beautiful tiger and a good looking lion. The tiger's front limb is an absolute hammer while the lion's front limb is made from a dryer manner. The other front limb of the tiger seems wider too. Of course we can reasonnably argue that the tiger possesses more fur than the lion, that his body is squater (the lion walks more often with his head held high)...
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United States Pckts Offline
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#51

Unfortunately I was unable get a Lion head on but I did get the Sangam Male head on


*This image is copyright of its original author
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
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United States Pckts Offline
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#52

Bite Force:
 
Intro:
Bite force is one indicator of the functional state of the masticatory system that results from the action of jaw elevator muscles modified by the craniomandibular biomechanics.1 Determination of individual bite force level has been widely used in dentistry, mainly to understand the mechanics of mastication for evaluation of the therapeutic effects of prosthetic devices and to provide reference values for studies on the biomechanics of prosthetic devices.2 In addition, bite force has been considered important in the diagnosis of the disturbances of the stomatognathic system.3
The bite force measurements can be made directly by using a suitable transducer that has been placed between a pair of teeth. This direct method of force assessment appears to be a convenient way of assessing the submaximal force. An alternative method is indirect evaluation of the bite force by employing the other physiologic variables known to be functionally related to the force production.4 Electromyographic activity of the surface elevator muscles of the mandible can be picked up from the cutaneous projection of the muscular belly.5 In this way, obtained data give an idea for the bite force. The results of some investigations showed a linear relationship between electromyographic activity potentials and direct bite force measurements, especially at a submaximal level.4
Several factors influence the direct measurements of the bite force. Thus, different investigators have found a wide range of maximum bite force values. The great variation in bite force values depends on many factors related to the anatomical and physiologic characteristics of the subjects. Apart from these factors, accuracy and precision of the bite force levels are affected by the mechanical characteristics of the bite force recording system.6
In this review, we emphasized important factors that affect bite force measurements, such as cranio-facial morphology, age, gender, periodontal support of teeth, signs and symptoms of temporomandibular disorders and pain, and dental status. In addition to these biological factors, mechanical determinants including different recording devices, position of recording devices in dental arch, unilateral or bilateral measurements, using acrylic splints and opening wide of mouth were reviewed.


Cranio-facial morphology
Maximum bite force varies with skeletal measures of the cranio-facial morphology that include the ratio between anterior and posterior facial height, mandibular inclination and gonial angle. It has been explained that bite force reflects the geometry of lever system of mandible. When the ramus is more vertical and the gonial angle acute, elevator muscles exhibit greater mechanical advantage.1,710
Pereira et al11 have found a negative correlation between bite force and mandibular inclination. This result is consistent with the other studies in which the long-faced type of the cranio-facial morphology has been associated with smaller values of the bite force.8,10 The same researchers have also suggested a significant correlation between bite force and muscle thicknesses and between masseter-temporal muscle thickness and facial morphology.11 In this respect, Farella et al12 have stated that masseter muscles are thicker in short-faced subjects than in normal or long-faced subjects. From the results of these studies, it seems that short-faced people may exhibit stronger bite force.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2853825/




"Results
Analyses of Linear Variables
Males and Females are statistically distinct across each of the linear variables (I-XVII), as we hypothesized (H2); males are substantially larger than females in all linear measures (Table 4). However, the sexes do not differ by either of the shape ratios. Those ratios clearly separate lions from tigers as lions have significantly longer rostra and narrower biangular widths – thus supporting H1 as well. Although the upper carnassial (P4) and premolar-molar rows in lions are only slightly longer than those of tigers (35.57 mm vs. 33.79 mm and 68.25 vs. 63.12 respectively), these differences were also highly significant. All of the statistically significant differences including these tooth lengths along with basal skull length (II), two different metrics related to jaw length (V, and X), and the aforementioned mentioned rostral lengths (I and XIV), all relate, essentially, to the lion’s overall longer muzzle while the tiger has a significantly wider rostrum (XV). (Table 4).


"The first principal component is driven most substantially by the anterior-most points relative to the position of the points that lie most close to the midline of the skull in the lateral view – i.e., the position of the zygomatics and the post-orbital processes (Fig. 6). Given that this axis divides the population by species, it is not surprising that the variables that emerge describe the relatively longer muzzle of lions relative to tigers. What is somewhat contrary to what we would have predicted both the anterior-most and posterior-most points show an anterior shift from the tiger morphospace (represented in Fig. 6– by the dot) to the lion morphospace (represented by the end of the line emerging from the dot). Thus the longer rostra found in lions is driven not by an elongation of the anterior portion of the skull, but by the relatively posterior position of the zygomatics and orbits. In other words, according to this analysis, tigers do not have relatively shorter snouts, but relatively rostral eyes and cheeks"

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article...ne.0113437



Differences across species were evident upon examination of the wireframe renderings of the specimens in Morphologika. One difference is a shortened rostrum in the tiger specimens relative to the lion specimens, which is consistent with descriptions of tigers (Sunquist and Sunquist 2002). This is a possible topic for future research. Mandibular angles also varied across the species, as tigers exhibited wider bi-coronal breadths and lions exhibited wider bi-angular breadth. The results of the PCA output are encouraging, demonstrating the ability of statistical analysis to account for observable qualitative differences across specimens. Variation of skull width and in biangular-anterior mandibular angle, or dome shape was observed differences across captivity status. Wild specimens were found to have more robust domes, than captive (Figure 1). Relatedly, captive specimens had greater skull widths relative to length than wild.
http://caravel.sc.edu/2014/12/the-crania...ve-felids/



Relative to weight, it’s the jaguar. Recent research by Adam Hartstone-Rose and colleagues at the University of South Carolina, who compared the bite forces of nine different cat species, reveals that jaguars have three-quarters the bite force of tigers.
However, given that jaguars are considerably smaller (the body mass of the individual in the study was only half that of the tiger), relatively speaking their bite is stronger.
“If you had to choose, you’d want to be bitten by a jaguar, not a lion or a tiger. But pound for pound, jaguars pack a stronger punch,” says Adam. “The strength of the jaguar’s bite is due to the arrangement of its jaw muscles, which, relative to weight, are slightly stronger than those of other cats. In addition – also relative to weight – its jaws are slightly shorter, which increases the leverage for biting.”
http://www.discoverwildlife.com/animals/...ngest-bite




From Bite club: comparative bite force in big biting mammals and the prediction of predatory behaviour in fossil taxa (from now I'm going to give paper names instead of just the in text citations to help folks locate the works easier) has the BFQs as follows:
Jaguar: 142 (unadjusted), 137 (allometry adjusted)
Leopard: 100 (unadjusted), 94 (allometry adjusted)
Tiger: 140 (unadjusted), 127 (allometry adjusted)
Cougar: 118 (unadjusted), 108 (allometry adjusted)
Lion: 118 (unadjusted), 112 (allometry adjusted)
Cheetah: 110 (adjusted), 119 (allometry adjusted)

To find a correlation with skull characteristics, here are the zygomatic width/basal length ratios of the cats (the greater the number the proportionately wider the skull):
Jaguar: 0.837
Leopard: 0.723
Tiger: 0.788
Cougar: 0.77
Lion: 0.743
Cheetah: 0.772


http://web.archive.org/web/2013082523132...r/wroe.pdf
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
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Norway Pantherinae Offline
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#53

I did see you guys talking about lions and tigers walking towards the camera, and I did my best at trying to make a "comparison" picture of two big males from both species, did my best and tried to scape the picture in the way that I felt looked right (hope I don't offend anyone). 
*This image is copyright of its original author
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Switzerland Spalea Offline
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#54

@Pantherinae :

About #27: Bravo ! Perfect illustration... The lion's front limbs are "dryer", perhaps a little bit more emaciated. The tiger's front limbs a little bit more wider.

That is what amazed me when I compared the posted photos here, within some threads ("large male tigers of India", "lions pictures and videos" and so on). I just mention it, but I don't want to say neither interpret anymore about it.
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Italy Ngala Offline
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#55
( This post was last modified: 06-09-2017, 06:28 PM by Ngala )

THE BRAIN

1 - General comparisons

Fig. 1 - Phylogeny with dorsal view of the brain size in Pantherinae and Felinae species.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Tab. 1 - Average endocranial and regional brain volumes in Pantherinae and Felinae species.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Source: Big Cat Coalitions: A Comparative Analysis of Regional Brain Volumes in Felidae Sakai et al., 2016
"Man still bears in his bodily frame the indelible stamp of his lowly origin." C. Darwin
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Italy Ngala Offline
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#56

(06-03-2017, 04:15 AM)tigerluver Wrote:
Nasal Aperture Area in Cats

*This image is copyright of its original author

The above shows the relative nasal aperture area to body mass ratio of a lot of cat species. Those who fall above the lions have more nasal aperture area relatively and vice versa for those below. A proportiontaly larger nasal aperture area would be indicative of higher air intake per mass, and in a sense more efficient breathing. Lions and cheetahs, from the big cats, are the more efficient breathers. That makes sense considering the more cursorial lifestyle. The jaguar, on the other hand, was below average. Such is perhaps explained by it being a stocky, short burst predator generally easily and quickly overpowering its usual prey.

Interesting Tigerluver. A cause of the reduced nasal aperture in jaguars, could be the high level of the humidity present in their habitat?
"Man still bears in his bodily frame the indelible stamp of his lowly origin." C. Darwin
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United States tigerluver Offline
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#57
( This post was last modified: 06-14-2017, 11:23 AM by tigerluver )

@Ngala , that is a very interesting and well thought hypothesis. Perhaps it could have some role. Have you read of this study on human nares? For humans, they came to this conclusion: "The positive slopes indicate that individuals from warm-humid climates, on average, tend to have wider nares whereas individuals from cool-dry climates tend to have narrower nares." The explanation was "Inhaled air reaches 90% of the required temperature and humidity levels before even reaching the nasopharynx, implicating the nasal cavity, especially the turbinates, as the major conditioning apparatus in the respiratory tract [4,5]. We also know that the geometry of the nasal airways influences the velocity of inspired air [4,7,45]. Narrow airways in cold-dry climates might allow better conditioning by increasing the turbulence in inspired air as it reaches the turbinates, thereby facilitating contact with the nasal mucosa [5]. However, we note that nostril area does not show unusually high differentiation across populations, which suggests that it is not the size of the nostrils but the shape that might be functionally important."

This pattern may hold up in cats to some degree, as some of the smaller cooler area cats have smaller nares. We'd need to find the localities of all individuals due to the broad range of some these very adaptable species.
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Italy Ngala Offline
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#58

Thank you @tigerluver for reporting this study. On the humans, seems that a major nasal aperture is related to an high level of humidity and a warm climate, so a minor nasal aperture is related to a cold climate.

If we apply on the big cats this study on humans, Snow Leopard should have a small nasal aperture, and Jaguars probably the major nasal aperture.

So the hypothesis of minor nasal aperture of Jaguars related to an high level of humidity would be excluded.

Your theory on the method of predation might be the most valid explanation.
"Man still bears in his bodily frame the indelible stamp of his lowly origin." C. Darwin
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Netherlands peter Offline
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#59

PC

You saw both cats in Africa and India. You also saw their captive relatives. Here's some questions:

01 - Wild vs captive. In what way do wild big cats differ from their captive relatives? In what way are they similar?
02 - Did you notice differences between lions and tigers in this respect (the difference between captive and wild animals)?
03 - Built. In what way are wild tigers different from their captive relatives? And lions?
04 - Are the differences discussed in 1-3 similar in males and females? 
05 - Psychology. What would you consider as typical for wild male lions and wild male tigers? Do they differ in this respect from their captive relatives?
06 - Same for females.
07 - Impression. What do you remember most about both species? What did you feel when you saw them?
08 - Others. You heard anything from your guides or others you consider remarkable?
09 - Books. What description in what book would come close to what you saw?
10 - Comparing cats. In which respects do wild lions and wild tigers compare? What are the main differences?
11 - Posters. You know about forums, posters and debates about big cats. What would you tell them first?
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United States Pckts Offline
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#60
( This post was last modified: 06-16-2017, 01:15 AM by Pckts )

@peter

Questions 1, 2 & 3


 I have only seen a few captive lions and tigers and to be honest, I find it very difficult to compare them to their wild counterparts. Wild cats have individual characteristics that are raw, they are primal, they have a much harder look in their eyes, scars on their face and body and are much more active. The captive cats I have seen either seem to be lazy, stressed or completely out of it.
Physical differences are easier to describe,
Captive lions are probably heavier than the wild ones I saw but they certainly aren't stronger. Captive lions I have seen usually seem more robust but also have more fat, wild lions are lean, strong and powerful. It's hard to describe but when you see a wild lion, it's body looks beaten but from this beating it's gained strength, a captive lion looks soft, unchallenged and weak in comparison.
It's the opposite for the captive tigers I have seen, Tigers seem seem much less dense in captivity and have more of a lanky look to them while in the wild Tigers are stocky, dense and strong. Their bodies are packed with muscle, their heads seem much more powerful and they seem lower to the ground, probably because they are more muscle packed. Tigers like lions have the same characteristics, wild individuals just look beaten and strong. Their forelimbs seem so strong, there is just something that happens to the body when you spend your entire life grappling and killing things, ripping into tough hides and eating highly nutritious prey compared to being fed slabs of meat.

Question 4 and 6

Females in the wild compared to captivity are as different as the males, they have a bit more elegance to their body but still powerful, especially in Tigers, I was more impressed by the tigress I saw than the males of either species because I was expecting the males to be powerful, but I didn't realize how powerful females could be. But with the females it's the attitude, females scare me, they look at you like food or a threat, males don't care about you, females definitely gave me the chills once or twice. Whether it was the durga female at Pench constantly snarling, lunging or never being settled or the Serengeti females walking in front of the jeep then purposely walking next to it and making eye contact as they walked past, they just seem more unpredictable.


Question 5

Male lions don't care about you, you're nothing to them, they don't look at you, they don't want to waste their time on you.
The Male tiger I got to spend time with was the same way, he was too busy roaring for his female to pay any attention to us, he was focused on the task at hand. The other Tadoba male I saw came out of the forest, walked in front of the jeeps then off to the other side of the road and he was gone. I really feel like either cat looks at us as a fly pestering them, not worth their time unless they get really annoyed. 

Captive cats of either species don't have the confidence, aura or power you feel when seeing their wild counterparts. Maybe it's my own doing, but seeing animals that live by the sword and die by it is so cool. It's raw, honest and beautiful. Seeing a cat behind bars takes away the magic, seeing a cat in nature, surrounded by it's natural habitat as far as the eye can see is what it's all about IMO. 


Question 7

"Controlled Aggression"

Seeing a male Lion in the wild is primal, you watch so many documentaries on them growing up and you know what they are capable of, then you see them and you finally can truly imagine what ferocity they posses. Their faces tell the tale, their eyes pierce your soul and they remind you of a time long lost.


Seeing a male Tiger in the wild is haunting, you have to search high and low, listen to calls, look for pug marks and most of the time it turns into empty promises then finally it happens, this striped beast emerges out of no where and he is beautiful and powerful at the same time. His head hangs low while his eyes look up, he is like a ghost. It's hard to believe that this massive beast actually lives there, but he does and he is king. You are lucky to even share a second with him and you should thank your lucky stars that you did.

Question 8

Yes and No

Talking to guides is much like being on a forum, each guide has their own opinion and stories, each has their favorites. What I learned from guides more than anything else is tracking, they are so in tune with the surroundings, their eyes, ears and noses are far better than ours. They have trained them their entire life, they almost become super human. Having them with you is so much fun, if you pay attention you can really learn a lot about tracking. 

Question 9

This is hard for me, I've read so many that they start to run together, most of the stories I remember seem to sensationalize these cats and that's not the cats I got to know. I never got to see them hunt or fight, I only got to see them doing their day to day operations.

Question 10

Male Lions seem taller and leaner while Male Tigers seem shorter and thicker.
Body length is hard to tell with the naked eye, but Tigers do seem a bit longer but no by much.
Body weight is impossible to tell, they carry their weight very differently, and both are massive in their own ways.


Females are similar in body dimensions but again I think Tigress are a little longer but female tigers definitely seem more powerful. Both my girlfriend and I noticed this, seeing the Link 8 female may have jaded me, but I kid you not, she is a massive Tigress and after seeing her, I have a hard time being fair to lioness'. Overall they are both very close in size and weight I'd bet.

Personalities are very different,
Lions are much more care free, they like to lounge and relax, tigers are on edge, they are always moving and active, even while sitting in a pool, their eyes are always scanning.


Question 11

Get out there and see the places where your favorite animals live, you'll learn more than you can ever learn behind a screen.


There is no rule...
Tigers are not larger than lions and lions are not larger than tigers....
Every species has a huge range, you see these animals and they come in all shapes and sizes.
When you see a Tiger or Lion in person you realize that no one can actually know what they weigh, how long or tall they are, nor does it matter. Just enjoy them for what they are, the last remnant of truly wild beasts!
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
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