There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
--- Peter Broekhuijsen ---

  • 3 Vote(s) - 4.67 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences

Netherlands peter Offline
Expert & Researcher
*****
Moderators
#16

Good work, PC. Interesting and many thanks.

I was familiar with one study and can confirm most conclusions. I have some doubts as to the relative strength of jaguar skulls, but most jaguar skulls I saw were from Surinam and the number was limited. Jaguars have distinct subspecies and it could be size has an effect on robustness.

Some of the jaguar skulls I saw were larger and heavier than those of smallish Sumatran tigers. In spite of that, Sumatran tiger skulls very often had larger and more robust teeth. Same for skulls of similar size. One could say that jaguar skulls, compared to skulls of Sumatran tigers, have more skull than teeth and be close. Same for the other two species (P. leo and P. pardus). The difference between P. onca and P. pardus, even when they are similar in size, is in many respects significant.   

It is often stated that jaguars, skullwise, are closer to tigers than to lions, but in my opinion jaguar skulls are closer to lion skulls. Lion, jaguar and leopard skulls, apart from size, are quite close to each other. Tiger skulls seem to be different.

The effect of captivity in big cat skulls usually is well visible and significant. Very often, captive skulls are deformed and asymmetrical. They also are relatively wide, not as elevated and not as dense and heavy. Teeth in wild skulls also are larger and much more robust.
5 users Like peter's post
Reply

Switzerland Spalea Offline
Wildanimal Lover
*****
#17

@Pckts:

About #13: I am a little surprised by the difference between the lion's bite force (691 psi) and the tiger's bite force (950 psi). I didn't think the différence was so big (+38%).
3 users Like Spalea's post
Reply

United Kingdom Sully Offline
Ecology and Conservation
*****
#18
( This post was last modified: 05-14-2016, 03:30 AM by Sully )

Pretty sure that 691 was a juvenile if I'm not mistaken

I remember @BoldChamp showing me the video of the measuring and the lion was not fully grown
"When the tiger stalks the jungle like the lowering clouds of a thunderstorm, the leopard moves as silently as mist drifting on a dawn wind." -Indian proverb
5 users Like Sully's post
Reply

United States chaos Offline
wildlife enthusiast
***
#19

(05-14-2016, 03:28 AM)SVTIGRIS Wrote: Pretty sure that 691 was a juvenile if I'm not mistaken

I remember @BoldChamp showing me the video of the measuring and the lion was not fully grown

I watched the actual documentary where the the 691 psi for the lion was recorded. Remember, its quite difficult to obtain
a maximum bite force measurement. Nobody knows for sure whether this particular cat was giving it his all ....... I go with
the animal planet estimates offered up in animal vs animal. Those scientists put in a bit of research, and concluded both lion
 and tiger were in the potential of 1000 psi range. Both cats share similar characteristics, bite force being one of them
3 users Like chaos's post
Reply

United Kingdom Sully Offline
Ecology and Conservation
*****
#20

@chaos I'd say that's a fair conclusion. Not like animal planet to be rational XD
"When the tiger stalks the jungle like the lowering clouds of a thunderstorm, the leopard moves as silently as mist drifting on a dawn wind." -Indian proverb
3 users Like Sully's post
Reply

United Kingdom Sully Offline
Ecology and Conservation
*****
#21

Here we go




"When the tiger stalks the jungle like the lowering clouds of a thunderstorm, the leopard moves as silently as mist drifting on a dawn wind." -Indian proverb
3 users Like Sully's post
Reply

United States chaos Offline
wildlife enthusiast
***
#22

See, that video illustrates a considerable range for only two measured bites. Subadult lion, which leaves me to believe a full grown male
biting with all hes got, would be significantly higher. Just my opinion.
3 users Like chaos's post
Reply

United States tigerluver Online
Prehistoric Feline Expert
*****
Moderators
#23
( This post was last modified: 05-14-2016, 07:06 AM by tigerluver )

Good reads @Pckts. I'll go through them thoroughly when I get the chance.

Bite force quotient type methods will be needed for size corrected comparisons as everyone already gets.

From Bite club: comparative bite force in big biting mammals and the prediction of predatory behaviour in fossil taxa (from now I'm going to give paper names instead of just the in text citations to help folks locate the works easier) has the BFQs as follows:
Jaguar: 142 (unadjusted), 137 (allometry adjusted)
Leopard: 100 (unadjusted), 94 (allometry adjusted)
Tiger: 140 (unadjusted), 127 (allometry adjusted)
Cougar: 118 (unadjusted), 108 (allometry adjusted)
Lion: 118 (unadjusted), 112 (allometry adjusted)
Cheetah: 110 (adjusted), 119 (allometry adjusted)

To find a correlation with skull characteristics, here are the zygomatic width/basal length ratios of the cats (the greater the number the proportionately wider the skull):
Jaguar: 0.837
Leopard: 0.723
Tiger: 0.788
Cougar: 0.77
Lion: 0.743
Cheetah: 0.772

So a positive correlation of greater skull width and and BFQ, although at least for this data set the relationship is not a perfectly straight line, but rather there are few bumps on the way. n=1 for each species is not statistically helpful either. 

One thing the skull width - BFQ brings to my mind is that prehistoric cats probably had some weaker bites with their longer skulls. Probably a remnant of the weasel-like ancestor rather than an evolutionary change (i.e. the cave lion lineage went from longer to broad).
7 users Like tigerluver's post
Reply

United States tigerluver Online
Prehistoric Feline Expert
*****
Moderators
#24

It has been proposed quite a few times that comparison threads would interest many. However, usually these threads end up full of voices but still empty of information or constructive collaboration. Nonetheless, we do like interest. Thus, this thread will be our first step in experimenting within the realm of comparison. However, the guidelines of such discourse are going to be explicitly defined, and explicit observance of these guidelines is expected by posters. 

The guidelines are simple. When comparing, we want an approach that rests on evolution, adaptation, ecology, and the like. We strictly forbid the discussion of the "verses" debate and interspecific conflict in terms of fights. Posters who can comfortably work with the desired approach are welcomed and encouraged to join the thread. Those who are enthralled in the art of war will be at the least, banned from this forum at the team's discretion. Due to the fragile nature of the subject, take this paragraph as the official warning and therefore do not expect justification in case the team has to act. Now that the stage rules are set, let us dive in...

Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities and Differences between Felids

*This image is copyright of its original author
The cat family (Felidae) is undoubtedly one of the most successful carnivorous mammals on the planet. Its origins can be traced back to around 25 MYA in Proailurus. From then until now, numerous species have come and gone. Today, just under 40 species survive. Each has a unique evolutionary history and thus a unique morphology, behavior, and general lifestyle. This leaves us plenty to discuss. 

While it is likely most will be interested in discussion of just the modern big cats, extinct species and the rest of modern cat family are invited to the table. If the thread spans to wide, a future separation may be in order, but until then, this experiment will continue with the aforementioned approach. 
3 users Like tigerluver's post
Reply

United States tigerluver Online
Prehistoric Feline Expert
*****
Moderators
#25

Library
Any documents brought during the discussion that further the topic will be indexed and if possible, linked here.
4 users Like tigerluver's post
Reply

United States tigerluver Online
Prehistoric Feline Expert
*****
Moderators
#26

Table of Contents of Discussion

Here will be a list indexing interesting discussions that take place within this thread. Page and post numbers will be provided. Simply click on the item to be taken to the post.
3 users Like tigerluver's post
Reply

United States tigerluver Online
Prehistoric Feline Expert
*****
Moderators
#27

Reserved post. 

This post is reserved in case it is needed in the future for a job.

Have a nice photo until then.

*This image is copyright of its original author
4 users Like tigerluver's post
Reply

United States tigerluver Online
Prehistoric Feline Expert
*****
Moderators
#28

Postcranial Morphology - Proportions

Brachial index - Radius length/Humerus length

*This image is copyright of its original author

Limb proportions:

*This image is copyright of its original author
4 users Like tigerluver's post
Reply

India sanjay Offline
Wildanimal Enthusiast
*****
#29

I am looking for some comparison between

1. Tiger and Lion
2. Jaguar and Leopard

Please do not share bunch of images and video, please add some original text and valid theory.

Also no VS debate here.
1 user Likes sanjay's post
Reply

India sanjay Offline
Wildanimal Enthusiast
*****
#30

To get privilege of posting, please make a request here - http://wildfact.com/forum/topic-request-...only-forum
2 users Like sanjay's post
Reply






Users browsing this thread:
1 Guest(s)

About Us
Go Social     Subscribe  

Welcome to WILDFACT forum, a website that focuses on sharing the joy that wildlife has on offer. We welcome all wildlife lovers to join us in sharing that joy. As a member you can share your research, knowledge and experience on animals with the community.
wildfact.com is intended to serve as an online resource for wildlife lovers of all skill levels from beginners to professionals and from all fields that belong to wildlife anyhow. Our focus area is wild animals from all over world. Content generated here will help showcase the work of wildlife experts and lovers to the world. We believe by the help of your informative article and content we will succeed to educate the world, how these beautiful animals are important to survival of all man kind.
Many thanks for visiting wildfact.com. We hope you will keep visiting wildfact regularly and will refer other members who have passion for wildlife.

Forum software by © MyBB