Big cat and Bear tale

[Ba Ba Lou]

Male bengal tiger vs. male sloth bear fight, more like a brief skirmish than a real fight,  both tiger and bear look to be about the same size, indicating the tiger was probably a sub-adult. L
Late in the video the bear was no where to be seen, a win for the tiger.





Second video, tiger DID NOT attack elephant, tiger roared and charged elephant, than retreated, than roared and charged elephant again, and retreated again, elephant finally walked away Reply

[Haymaker]

(03-21-2017, 10:46 PM)peter Wrote:

(03-20-2017, 09:13 PM)Haymaker Wrote:

(03-20-2017, 08:45 PM)sanjay Wrote: First, I don't know where to post this awesome video.
This is latest sensational video of a male tiger fighting with male Sloth Bear in night. Both fight very well and sloth bear gives a good fight but tiger stood its ground.
I must say that this is very very rare video and we must enjoy it.

Please share this thread to your friends :)

That's a great video, you can see the speed at which the tiger strikes.  That certainly helped it in fending off the bear, as the bear came forward the tiger looked like it was going to rear up, but the bear came charging in lower, then the tiger sort of struck the sides of the bears head and gripped also.  It seems like the tiger submitted by lowering itself, but then the bear walked away later in the other direction, before it made a few displays of aggression.  If you look closely after the bear backed the tiger up, it makes that later display of aggression in the spot light of the car, when it does that, watch the tiger, the tiger drops down into submission.

After the bear leaves the tiger gets up and walks across the road.  These bears really aren't that big, so honestly the tiger should fair well, because both seem to be similar size.  But either way, awesome rare video, great find!!

HAYMAKER

For someone claiming to know a bit about the noble art of self defence, the interpretation you offered is, ehhh, quite peculiar. If we add the crap posts on 900-pound wild lions and all the rest you picked up in the books written by a man who developed a serious dislike for stripes over time, I can only get to an agenda. We don't like agendas over here. You was told in a pm, you got another warning after a crap post and when that had no effect a one week holiday was the result.  

We met before. It resulted in a ban. I don't mind you giving it another try but it seems you, obsessionwise, didn't learn one thing. My advice is to quit crapping around and start contributing good information. 

And quit the phony questions as well. You want to know about size? Read the extinction and modern weights threads. You want to know about tigers and bears in the Russian far East? Read the extinction thread.

If you continue you way you did, I would start thinking about buying a 900-pound pet lion to keep you company in the near future. One with no mane, so you can get an idea about the muscle department on top of the shoulders.

VIDEO

As to the video. It starts with a sloth bear crossing the road from left to right for a demonstration and it ends with a tiger crossing the road from right to left and no bear to demonstrate. Meaning Baloo didn't have a good day at the office.

Was the exchange a result of predation gone wrong? I didn't see any predation. A tiger doing predation isn't going for a confrontation. A tiger interested in predation will try to get in at an angle and move for a position enabling him to finish the opponent as quickly as possible. He would also show aggression. He most definitely will not allow the intended victim to do a few statements. 

Was it a fight then? In order to get to an opinion, one should have watched a few fights in which tigers were involved. I saw a few and heard a lot more from people who saw much more than all of us combined. A tiger involved in a real fight roars and gives it everything he has. So much so, that it results in a lot of breaks. It's something that can continue for a very long time. Those who witness a real fight very often move out a quick as possible, bars or no bars. I know, because I saw it more than once. The reason? Fear. 

But the bear committed himself, no? No, he didn't. The bear responded in the way every bear would do when suddenly confronted in that he tried to bluff his way out of trouble. This is not something that adult males only do. It's engrained in every bear, young or old, male or female. They stand on their hind legs and attack their opponent with everything they have. Does it work? Most certainly. That's why all of them do it. Same for captive bears.

Tigers, on the other hand, only fight animals they dislike. It would take quite a dislike to go for an all-out. Few tigers will accept a challenge of a bear for no reason at all and bears knows. A bear suddenly confronted by a tiger usually bluffs his way out. But a demonstration is different from a fight. An average male Indian tiger is larger and heavier than an average male sloth bear. Not saying it would be a very one-sided affair, but I've yet to read a report about an adult tiger killed by a sloth bear.   

Although the strategy works for bears most of the time, it has disadvantages. The bear in the video nearly paid when he overplayed his hand. If the tiger would have been committed, it could have ended right at the start of the video. My guess is the bear knew the tiger wasn't committed. A bear of similar size confronted by a smaller tigress with cubs would have thought twice.  

So what was going on then? I don't know, but it seemed like the bear was harrassed. He tried to find a way out and secure a safe retreat. The tiger, as can be seen, avoided direct contact, but not quite in that he didn't intend to pull out of it. Every time the bear came for him, he retreated a bit and laid down. Tigers involved in a confrontation that didn't yet result in a fight often wait for their opponent to make a move. Same with man-eaters and tigers cornered by humans with dogs: they often wait for the other to make a move. It's a game of nerves.

After every demonstration, the tiger moved forward. The distance between both animals never exceeded 30 feet or so. The tiger kept the pressure up, that is. In the end, the bear moved out and that was the end of it. Could have been a conflict about space. Tigers often 'probe' opponents or 'guide' them out of their territory. 

I don't think tigers see sloth bears as competitors, but it's well-known that they do not get along with them. And the other way round. They could be competitors in the dominance department. When things are unclear in this respect, a confrontation can be the result. Some of these can develop into a fight. Billy Arjan Singh heard an angry tigress roar during a lengthy fight one evening. He found the bear next morning. Some male tigers can develop a taste for bears, but incidents of this kind are few and far between in India.

We need a bit more on both animals in order to be able to understand why the confrontation filmed happened. 

What we don't need is preferenced posters with bulky agendas going for misinformation right away. This is a forum. Not some bloody You Tube channel.

Not sure I understand where you're coming from here, just expressing my opinion of what happened in the fight, I don't think its that big of a deal, it was a short exchange, maybe it was a draw, I just thought the bear had the edge in the way it backed up the tiger.  As well I think the strategy of coming in with the head down is particularly smart as it protects the throat area. My view point is slightly jaded in the sense that Ive seen many bear vs tiger accounts, even sloth bears, and the bears almost always won, so when I view this video, it seems to confirm some of that.  The tiger doesn't look like it really wants to tangle with this bear, and even if it could win, I think the bear would mortally wound the tiger in the process.  So the tiger knows that and that's probably why its keep its distance.  And again, if you want proof, there is plenty of it, if you have proof of tigers killing sloth bears just post it.

As far as meeting before or being someone else, who exactly is that, who are you're talking about?  You should prove what you're saying not just speak out of your hat.  As far as the 900 lb lions, I don't actually believe those accounts, that was my conversation with the other guy on here, he doesn't believe the 850 lb tiger either, neither does Craig Lugwig or Sunquist.  I don't either, it says the tiger was probably actually 700 lbs, I could more believe that. I recently just checked one of the biggest recent captive tigers named Conan at Bigcat Habitat, he was around 700lbs or a little over, but it was clear this cat was neutered. Yet another lion there the same weight, was not neutered.  So I think this is informative information.  There is a lot of weights that people are throwing around, and it was not till I saw this guy on yes youtube, did I see the argument made of  debating only scientific weights. Reply

[Pckts]

Once again @Haymaker you're missing the point. Nobody here needs to prove anything, it's been posted throughout this forum, your refusal to do any leg work is exhausting to read. How many times can we point you in the right direction? 
Do some work yourself, actually read up on accounts and others hard work instead of asking for us to "prove something to you."
When you prove to actually read something and have questions in regards to a specific study then you'd get a better response than just painting with a broad brush with no proof behind it.
Lastly, you're questioning a guy who knows more
 about big cats, big cat/bear interaction and weights than anyone else on this forum. If you actually took the time to read where we've pointed you to go, you'd see that. Reply

[Pckts]

Where to begin....

The made up curator for one, look up curators at the smithsonian museum then show me this guy's name, then show me which exhibit he curates for then show me that he is a wildlife biologist who's expertise is big cats and his qualifications to make assumptions on big cat size.

Next.
You obviously didn't do enough leg work since the largest captive cat not being a liger is jaipur, a Amur tiger who weighed 423kg or so with many others also posting impressive weights, but captive cats have too many extenuating factors.
Once again, nuetering a cat doesn't make it any larger, it doesn't change anything other than the fact that it won't produce as much testosterone and thus it will be weaker and less muscular.

Next show me where Sunquist specifically mentions that the Guinness tiger isnt believable and not your interpretation on him saying some hunters may have exaggerated their weights. Also, the record tiger deducted for a full gorged belly would still be 324kg, specifically mentioned in the article and that's deducting a massive amount.

Last is cattle killers...
You do know that most big cats will kill cattle given the opportunity, I've yet to see a single shred of evidence that proves a cattle killer is larger than a non cattle killer.

In regards to "the guy from Russia"
Why don't you take peters advice and go through the edge of extinction thread? You'll see a ton of accounts for both, see if you can add something to them.
Good luck Reply

[Pckts]

Post any debate questions or responses to this discussion in the "debate section" please.

Jaipur is a Guinness record holder, he's verified.
http://wildfact.com/forum/topic-the-heav...nness-2014
Once again, nuetered cats may be fatter since they are generally less active and have lower muscle mass but they aren't "larger" they aren't longer or taller, same with captive cats in general, they are less active and thus have a higher perpencity to being obese, which is why you shouldn't get caught up in captive weights. There are many 600 plus pound cats not nuetered and look fairly good, many are posted in the captive cat thread and you'll also see them throughout the edge of extinction thread, but once again, it's on you to do the leg work and draw out the questions you may have in the appropriate places.

Where is ludwigs statement on the record tiger? 

We've all seen Sunquist emails, hence why you selective post one but not the others, right? Why not post what Sunquist specifically said about the Tigers he measured and how they compare?

So we are using hunting records now with no verification?

When this all started I told you lions and tigers have significant overlap, 185kg-250kg is normal to large range and anything over that amount is exceptional. Tigers generally can hit the higher amount more often than lions but both can hit the 272kg+ mark.
These are verified marks, references provided and means of measurements confirmed. I struggle to see where the issue is outside of you having some sort of agenda in mind.

So in closing, enough of the derailment from us, leave the threads to their intended nature and post your questions in the places they belong.

Mods:
Feel free to delete all of my off topic posts, sorry for the derailment and let's move back to the thread intention. Reply

[parvez]

The tiger was not longer than the bear in the video. It was clearly sub adult. Bengal tigers particularly can fight hours together with prey but seem to rest in between for a while. With competitors they don't seem to be fighting so long. They tire out easily in that case. Reply

[Roflcopters]

(03-20-2017, 09:13 PM)Pckts Wrote: Took place on the road to moharli, tadoba
Nice find

If it's Moharli then it's most likely Sonam or one of her sub adult cubs. also Sloth bears generally avoid contact with tigers unless a mother is protecting her cubs. Charger of Pench was notorious for killing bears in the past and now in the present days. Ravan the huge male of Satpura was observed killing sloth bears 3 times since they began tracking him in the park. 

who remembers this encounter of Wagdoh male and a large resident Sloth bear.

*This image is copyright of its original author

this sloth bear, drawn by thirst came very close to the artificial water hole where 6 tigers were present (male,female and 4 cubs). only 1 cub noticed it and moved even closer until the bear saw it..there was a stand off for couple of seconds and bear stood up on its hind legs..but the bold cub stood its ground..this commotion woke up the male tiger, who was sleeping in water hole, almost invisible..after seeing the bear, this huge male moved in with unbelievable speed..followed by 2 cubs and the tigress!!!

*This image is copyright of its original author

Wagdoh getting ready to charge

*This image is copyright of its original author

After being charged by the male tiger, the bear disappeared in the jungle on its right..we heard 4 high pitch calls from bear and after that there was a complete silence..we checked fire line (now not in use) that runs parallel to this one where we saw the tigress and cub crossing..nobody knows what happened after this.. I have a few more shots from this series but no direct shot between tiger & the bear.. will be sharing those soon.. thanks once again for all your comments..












Tfs sanjay Reply

[brotherbear]

The true story behind post #18 can be found here: http://shaggygod.proboards.com/
The tiger had grabbed and killed the bear cab after it fell from its mother's back as the bear was fleeing from the tiger. Then the angry sloth bear goes after the tiger. Reply

[Pckts]

I also read that the bear had 4 Cubs and the tiger killed all 4 but no one confirmed the claims, still speculation at this point.



Nitin Ule

The Sloth Bear had 4 cubs with her. Tiger killed all four cubs. the mother fought with the huge male Tiger but couldn't save babies. She had to run away.. This was near Padmapur gate on moharli side. I was in Tadoba and Our driver told us the story. Forest department had closed the road for few hours and our driver was stuck there.

Nitin Ule

 As far as I know the Sloth bear lost her all 4 cubs. Tiger killed all. Both vanished in jungle and then FD opened the road for traffic. Reply

[Rishi]

*This image is copyright of its original author

Reply

[Garfield]

(05-03-2017, 10:11 AM)Rishi Wrote:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Yeah that's pretty remarkable, I seen this guy posting some mad stuff on accounts like these, that art is for sure probably based on an actual sighting by the Indian natives, becaz in almost all the accounts Ive seen the bears almost always win.  I think its just the way the tiger is wired, its not set up for the long drawn out struggle with an equally strong adversary.  I saw one account of one bear killing 3 tigers. Reply

[SuSpicious]

(05-03-2017, 10:43 AM)Garfield Wrote:

(05-03-2017, 10:11 AM)Rishi Wrote:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Yeah that's pretty remarkable, I seen this guy posting some mad stuff on accounts like these, that art is for sure probably based on an actual sighting by the Indian natives, becaz in almost all the accounts Ive seen the bears almost always win.  I think its just the way the tiger is wired, its not set up for the long drawn out struggle with an equally strong adversary.  I saw one account of one bear killing 3 tigers.

Its a shame how people underestimate the stamina of a tiger. I totally agree that a fight between a Adult Bear vs Adult Tiger would eventually depend on the individuals fighting. But I personally have known of several cases where tigers fight without a break. I respect and know a bears strength . 

But I have never liked two assumptions that people make:
1. Tiger don't fight that often : The truth is actually they do. Just that these fights are not documented much. Infact tigers fight all alone without any help and fight most of the times. If only we could have more videos then people can stop making this assumptions.

2. Tigers tire out very easily : I again agree they don't have too much stamina going for a straight fight but its way more than people think. They can stay their grounds for a greater period than people think.

I put all these points because people take assumptions and make facts over them. Well 'Male Tigers don't take part in raising of cubs' was also an assumption but its proving to be wrong. I am not biased towards tigers. But simply thinking they are not 'right to the death' types of fighters like lions is wrong. Yes they avoid confrontations but when they fight they do kill one another. 

3. Mentallity and Experience Matters: When two predators fight more than the size I believe mentallity matters. For ex: A tiger or bear or lion who once kills another predator in a fight has the upmost confidence that he/she can do it again. 
Umarpani- Killed KF , Then killed Bhima, Then fought with chota munna and going strong
Raja- Killed 3 or maybe more prime males
Munna- Again killed quite a few prime males.
Majingilane lions- Same here.they defeated quite a few guys
Ravan, Charger- Killed Sloth Bears
Rhino Killer Dudhwa- Apparently this guy has killed 3 rhinos.caught on film supposedly.

My point here is the individual matters more than we think in any fight that is between two supreme predator. Bear, Lion and Tiger all three are supreme predators. Any fight will very likely depend on who is fighting. And if one individual gets a habit of killing one type then they more often than not win their next fights too with those predators.

I maybe wrong with all my points but this is what I feel about the whole topic here. Reply

[brotherbear]

IMO, the artwork is inappropriate. I agree with all points made by Suspicious. Especially the point made that each animal, be it lion or tiger or bear is an individual and each individual has his own unique set of skills and experiences. Some are more aggressive than others. Some are braver than others. Some are battle-scared veterans and some are not. These things do not depend on the species but on the individual. Reply

[Rishi]

(05-03-2017, 10:43 AM)Garfield Wrote:

(05-03-2017, 10:11 AM)Rishi Wrote:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Yeah that's pretty remarkable, I seen this guy posting some mad stuff on accounts like these, that art is for sure probably based on an actual sighting by the Indian natives, becaz in almost all the accounts Ive seen the bears almost always win.  I think its just the way the tiger is wired, its not set up for the long drawn out struggle with an equally strong adversary.  I saw one account of one bear killing 3 tigers.

All tigers regularly kill & eat bears (all kinds)..& the bears, ferocious buggers that they are, sometimes try & return the favour.
Animal interactions, more so the interspecific ones, are not simple..They are neither static & nor do they follow a specific pattern.

(Those Grizzly & Puma videos don't belong. I've removed them here> http://wildfact.com/forum/topic-bear-and...6#pid39876 #123)

Though you haven't provided your "accounts" I can't doubt their existance, but plz refrain from making blatant statements, unless you have about 100 incidents randomly picked out of a 1000 observations pointing that way.

"In the wild, expect the unexpected, as us humans haven't much clue of what to expect" --Forgot who 
(Making this my signature)
.
.
.
@brotherbear it may be inappropriate, but not impossible..
Mughal dyansty were patrons of the greatest recordings of natural history in the medieval world. Their work is reknowned for accuracy of documentation.
Check out #285 & #290 here ( http://wildfact.com/forum/topic-asiatic-...0#pid39850 )... Reply

[brotherbear]

The last video; a mother cougar bravely defending her cubs. The grizzly, probably just curious and having a look at the cubs. Curiosity often gets bears in trouble. Reply