|
Big cat and Bear tale
|
Yeah, I get it Pckts. You're a scientist. But, I believe I have better than proved my point; though I can easily show much more. While no numbers can be carved in granite as to an average size for a fully mature male grizzly, either in the U.S.A. or in Russia, I can say that on average, the grizzly is heavier than the tiger and as for maximum size, much heavier.
I would prefer to learn more about the size of the Russian brown bears. 
Guys, both of you have showed good points, no need to heat the issue.
From my part, I am fascinated with the figures, and if possible, @ I have very few data on this animal, and these records are valuable for me. 
I know just this side of nothing about the brown bears of Finland - the Kuusamo brown bear - One such bear named Juuso was weighed in at 483 kg ( 1,065 pounds ).
Yellowstone Bears in the Wild by James C. Halfpenny.
Size and Sensibility - Size counts. My bear is bigger than your bear! Perhaps size is the most common topic for bear watchers. It is certainly a cause for bragging rights. Of course, bear size depends on where you are and who is telling the story. Famed naturalist Adolph Murie long ago noted that the biggest bears were always furthest away from any scales. In the Yellowstone area, bears are always biggest at the K-Bar Saloon in Gardiner. Many people wonder if half-ton grizzlies roam the GYE. Paul Schullery noted historian and above all ursophile, reported in 'The Bears of Yellowstone' that on July 9, 1870, Bart Henderson shot a large grizzly near Cooke City. According to Bart's story, "We was attacked by an old boar bear. We soon killed him. He proved to be the largestever killed in the mountains, weighing 960 pounds." Paul notes that we do not know how, or really if, the bear was weighed. I am only going to consider bears that were actually weighed or had their weights carefully estimated by chest girth measurements - no stories, no tales, no matter how good. The heaviest Yellowstone grizzly "with documentation" that I know of was killed in 1916 near Old Faithful by Arthur Young for an exhibit in the California Academy of Science in San Francisco. When weighed in sections, the animal totaled 916 pounds. Dr. Saxton Pope, who also shot at the bear, estimated that 10 percent of the bear's live weight may have been lost as blood and waste during processing. If true, the bear weighed about 1,000 pounds. The bear was shot in May and reportedly had no fat left over after hibernation. How accurate were the scales in 1916? It should be noted that this bear was probably feeding at a garbage dump. Then there is the legend of the Thousand Pound Bear named "Bruno" ( grizzly number 14 ), studied by the Craighead brothers. The heaviest recorded weight for Bruno was 890 pounds when live-trapped on September 5. Since the brothers figured he would put on additional weight before hibernation, Bruno was nicknamed the Thousand Pound Bear, even though he wasn't. The Craigheads also trapped Fidel ( grizzly number 206 ), which weighed 800 pounds, No. 115 which weighed 660 pounds, No. 13 which weighed 645 pounds, and Ingemar ( No 12 ) which weighed 620 pounds. All were males. They also reported the average weight of grizzly bears contending for top leadership at the Trout Creek garbage dump was 575 pounds. All weights were taken in June or July. ( In some accounts referring to the Craighead research there are reports of a 1,120 pound ( or 500 kg ) grizzly bear. I have not been able to find such a bear in any of their scientific articles.
The Grizzly Book by Jack Samson - The Trouble with Grizzlies by Thomas Hardin.
The grizzly is by no means as large as his cousin the monster brown bear of Kodiak Island or the Alaskan Peninsula, which sometimes is reputed to weigh 1,500 pounds. Now and then a wild grizzly may weigh 1,000 pounds and I have seen one that I thought would weigh between 850 and 900, but the average big male will weigh from 500 to 600 pounds and the females from 300 to 400. A hide that will square eight feet is a very large one, and one that will square nine feet is tremendous. The average big grizzly's hide will square about seven feet.
The Grizzly Book by Jack Samson - The Big skull by Grancel Fitz.
In the case of bears, it wasn't hard to find. The world's record grizzly skull is in the National Museum in Washington. Since ( brown ) bears may live for 40 years or more, unless somebody shoots them, and since they keep getting bigger until they die, it is a fairly safe bet that this old monster was born in the great days of the bison, at least a century ago. The Grizzly by Enos A. Mills. The grizzly always appears larger than he really is. The average weight is between three hundred and fifty to six hundred pounds; males weigh a fourth more than females. Few grizzlies weigh more than seven hundred pounds, though exceptional specimens are known to have weighed more than one thousand. Adams gave the weight of "Samson," a California grizzly, as fifteen hundred pounds, and a few Alaskan grizzlies, judging by their skins, may have weighed more than "Samson." It may be that years ago, when not so closely hunted, the grizzly lived longer and grew to a larger size than he attains today.
Himalayan bear killed by tiger
Is it effect of climate change on habitat? 11 November, 2009 – In the first recorded incident of its kind in Bhutan, a Himalayan black bear was killed and eaten by a royal Bengal tiger in the Jigme Dorji national park. The carcass of the bear, with only its head, skin and paws remaining, was discovered by a team of foresters in Domenda, two days walk from Dodena in Thimphu, on November 7 at an altitude of 4,079 m. The kill has thrown up several questions on tigers being found at such high altitudes in winter, the relationship between bears and tigers in Bhutan’s wild and the implications of the tiger’s presence on the snow leopard habitat. “It’s a confirmed kill by a royal Bengal tiger, since there are canine puncture marks on the bear’s throat and spine, as well as tiger claw marks lacerating the bears face and tiger pug marks in the area,” said Phub Tshering, the JDNP park beat officer, who discovered the carcass. He said that there were also signs of struggle between the bear and the tiger with rhododendrons bushes uprooted and claw marks on trees. “Usually the Himalayan black bear is a powerful foe for any tiger and they avoid each other, but here the bear seems to be a juvenile at 2-3 years and hence did not have the muscle and fighting abilities it gets by the time it reaches its adult age of 5 years,” said Dr Sonam Wangyel, the chief forestry officer and wildlife biologist. He said that it was likely that the two animals met accidentally. Phub Tshering said that some people, who were on tsam in the area, said that they had seen the same bear feeding on berries in late October. They also noticed tiger pug marks in the same area. “We have, for the last three years, started noting multiple signs of the presence of tigers in such high altitude areas, ” said Phub Tshering. Dr Sonam Wangyel said that, though there was no conclusive proof, it is possible that due to climate change the tree line was being pushed higher giving cover to the tiger. “This may also be due to shrinking and disturbed habitat at lower altitudes and hence the mountains may be the only undisturbed areas for the tiger,” he said. However, the real impact of tigers moving higher could be on the snow leopard, whose own snowline habitat could be shrinking. He said that clear scientific evidence was needed to establish the above hypothesis. The incident has also given a peek into the relationship between the Himalayan black bear and the royal Bengal tiger. In a camera trap set up in Nabji in 2006, it was found that a bull killed by a tiger was also being fed on by a bear at alternate intervals. “One day, the bear took away the whole carcass and the camera captured a bewildered look on the face of the tiger when it came back to feed again. The bear could be benefiting from the tigers kills,” said Dr Sonam. He said in the wild carnivores would try to eliminate competition and the bear killed may have been a potential competitor. “Though it happens, this is rare incident since the tiger usually goes after smaller, less aggressive and weaker prey,” he said. He also said that it was possible that tigers would be coming to these heights to cross into other valleys and that more of them were being detected due to better detection devices. Old data show that around 115-150 tigers are found in Bhutan on the basis of sightings. http://www.kuenselonline.com/modules.php...&sid=13949 http://bigcatrescue.org http://bigcatrescue.org/himalayan-bear-killed-by-tiger/
Bear Almanac by Gary Brown.
Tiger - Tigers prey on bears in their respective habitat. The diet of some Siberian tigers is 5 to 8 percent Asiatic black bear, though the bears have been observed displacing tigers from their kills. Bengal tigers kill sun bears, though they will often avoid them, and they ambush or sneak up on a sloth bear. Brown bears are a more formidable challenge for a Siberian tiger, and most of those bears killed are young, orphaned, or bears too old or weak to defend against a tiger. http://books.google.pl/books?ei=i7KfUtWX...me&q=tiger According to Tungus, there are three competing groups: man, tigers, and large bears. If the tiger occupies a certain small valley, no bear and no man may come and disturb it. If a man camps in such a place, the tiger kills the horses, approaches the wigwam, frightens the women and children, but rarely kills them. If the man moves to another neighbouring valley, the tiger does not follow him, and leaves his family and horses alone. Neither does the tiger go to the valleys occupied by the large bear. The places belonging to the bear may easily be recognized by man, by the tiger, or by other bears. This animal lives with its mother until it is sometimes one or two years old. When the bear is alone, he has to find out a free place to live. It happens rather often that there are two claimants for the same place - a tiger and a bear. According to their practice, the bear puts his mark on a tree by biting it as high as he can. According to Tungus, the tiger is not as intelligent as the bear. "... If the first attack succeeds and the bear falls down, the tiger masters his foe and kills him; if not, the bear slowly but surely conquers the tiger and kills him. By this duel, the problem of the desired territory is solved for ever ..." From :"Social organization of the Northern Tungus" by S._M._Shirokogoroff http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S._M._Shirokogoroff
I believe that the relationship between grizzly and wolf is very different than between tiger and wolf. Tigers, from what reading I've done on the subject, including recent posts right here at 'Wildfact', tend to chase off or kill wolves as they view them as competition for large prey animals. While wolves also compete with grizzlies, the bears appear to actually benefit from the presence of wolves. However, young bears are sometimes killed by wolf packs and mother bears have a difficult time in defending their cubs from wolves.
The Bear Almanac by Gary Brown.
Bears possess enormous strength, regardless of species or size. The strength of a bear is difficult to measure, but observations alone ( bears moving rocks, carrying animal carcasses, removing large logs from the side of a cabin, and digging cavernous holes ) are indicative of incredible power. A study team at Montana State University in Bozeman, Montana, found that a grizzly bear could treat a 700-pound dumpster like a beach ball, while it took a minimum of two persons just to tip the dumpster. The team concluded the strength of a calm grizzly bear is two-and-a-half times that of a human. No animal of equal size is as powerful. A bear may kill a moose, an elk, or a deer by a single blow to the neck with a powerful foreleg, then lift the carcass in its mouth and carry it for great distances. "The strength ... is in keeping with his size," describes Ben East in 'Bears'. "He is very powerfully built, a heavy skeleton overlaid with thick layers of muscle as strong as rawhide rope. He can hook his long, grizzly-like front claws under a slab of rock that three grown men could not lift, and flip it over effortlessly... A brown bear took a thousand-pound steer a half mile up an almost vertical mountain, much of the way through alder tangles with trunks three or four inches thick." Strength and power are not only attributes of large bears, but also of the young. The author observed a yearling American black bear searching for insects turn over a flat-shaped rock that was between 310 and 325 pounds "backhanded" with a foreleg. The bear was captured the following day in a management action and was found to weigh only 120 pounds.
Pckts, you stated: That is from all of yellowstones data base, over a 25 year period. I have no doubt that bears get larger than said bear, but I don't think that their were any larger than he during that time period.
From what year to what year were these studies made? Were these bears captured randomly or were the researchers attempting to capture the biggest bears they could locate? A lot has to do with the actual mission of the research team.  (11-22-2015, 11:30 PM)brotherbear Wrote: Pckts, you stated: That is from all of yellowstones data base, over a 25 year period. I have no doubt that bears get larger than said bear, but I don't think that their were any larger than he during that time period. "Born in 1990 during the midst of a grizzly baby boom, No. 211 witnessed the return of wolves, and has become one of the most recognizable bruins by park visitors who’ve dubbed him Scarface due to healed gashes from fights with other bears. Scientists say genetic matches show he fathered at least three offspring during a 25-year span that saw the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem grizzly bear population rise from about 300 to more than 750." "The first capture of No. 211 happened in 1993 near Mount Washburn in the northeast part of the park. At 3 years old, he weighed an estimated 150 pounds." The link and page its found on Yellowstone Visitor 5 hrs · Scarface As Yellowstone National Park’s grizzly bear No. 211 nears the end of his long life, scientists say it could be time to remove federal protections for the bears. No. 211 weighed 597 pounds when he was captured in 2001, the highest weight researchers recorded. In subsequent captures, he has weighed less. Now near the end of what’s generally considered a wild grizzly bear’s life span, he weighed 338 pounds at his last capture on Aug. 31 near Mount Washburn. http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world...ching-end/
5 hrs ·
Scarface As Yellowstone National Park’s grizzly bear No. 211 nears the end of his long life, scientists say it could be time to remove federal protections for the bears. No. 211 weighed 597 pounds when he was captured in 2001, the highest weight researchers recorded. In subsequent captures, he has weighed less. Now near the end of what’s generally considered a wild grizzly bear’s life span, he weighed 338 pounds at his last capture on Aug. 31 near Mount Washburn. Pckts, don't you get it? The heaviest weight achieved by bear No. 211 was 597 pounds.
Here are a few more quotes by Big Bonns. I only quote from those whom I admire and respect. I just can't see so much time and hard work being wasted. From http://animalsversesanimals.yuku.com/
Big Bonns... As anyone among the hunting faternity pacifc side will tell you....Peninsula Browny all the way. Kodiak is obliged to protect Kodiak Bear to almost exactly 3000....beyond which they allow hunting until they return to 3000 again. The Peninsula Bear number closer to 20,000 animals and from here based on pure percentages, they return larger animals. Chucks Outriggers own record is of a 1400lb Browny....from the Peninsula B104 was from the Peninsula....estimated at 1700lb. Another was taken in 2009 that was reported to be 1600lb unconfirmed. There is another on Afognak which is reported to be 1 tonne but unconfrmed. If you just type in Google the words "Grizzly Bear road kill" (i can be bothered to provide links and stuff these days) you will see the Interior Grizzly 843lb road kill on the back of a truck, complete with massive paws. I repeat this is not a coastal Browny but an interior Grizzly. Not fat just massively built and what you should compare your Lions to when comparing against the Interior true Grizzly subspecies. He is the second such animal in the last 3 years where another almost identical specimen was translocated to Denali at 847lb. It is utter proof that these species grow to about 850lbs for the principal males just as Lions might grow to 530lb (Ghosts of Tvaso) I have a pic of the 1120lb animal which i will dig out. For others there is a pic in existance of b104 fishing in water. I will obtain a link. Both rangers estimated him at 1700lbs. Apol....the program in search of the worlds largest Bears was dropped due to finance issues. It has been reported for around 10 years that Afognak Browns get larger than Kodiaks and the search began here for a reported 1 tonne specimen seen in 2002. I will see what i can dig out and the program was apparently completed with a positive result. Yes, the 843lb, 847lb, 930lb Yukon, 1053lb Khutz and the 1120lb Yellowstone Bears are all confirmed as being weighed. If we are to dispense with the all too numerous Grizzly that get 650lb to 850lb ish then we must dispense with Lions that might make 500lb to 530lb (although no hard evidence of such in recent times) Indeed there have been a whole raft of Female Grizzly in Denali which have exceeded average Lion weights. Grizzly have managed 1120lbs 1050lbs 930lbs, 850lbs, 830lbs, 750lbs and 730lbs for the internal subspecies of the Grizzly..... these across the broad range of ecosystem....Yukon barren tundra, Yellowstone semi temperate forest, Khutz lush rainforest/swamp and Rocky mountains, elevated barren ground. Grizzly are potentially850lb animals for full growed adult males regardless of the environment (freaks removed) (11-24-2015, 03:13 PM)brotherbear Wrote: 5 hrs ·You asked where, when, who captured him, was it random, what experience they had etc. The link I posted provides all the answers to your questions. It does say the heaviest 211 weighed was 597, it's tough to read if they are talking about any Yellowstone bear or just 211. I read it as though they were saying 211 is the heaviest bear weighed since he was the most studied and longest monitored and they specifically mention it. |
| Users browsing this thread: |
| 9 Guest(s) |