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Big cat and Bear tale
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My views and opinions on the topic of grizzly vs tiger are far less fanatical than in years gone by. We live, we learn, and we grow. Some call it flip-flopping; I call it advancing.
First of all, let's look at the players. The grizzly is not truly territorial. A mature male grizzly will claim a large expanse of land to roam as he forages for various food sources and for female bears. There can be numerous adult male bears sharing this same expanse of land. However, there will normally be that one dominant male who will violently defend his choice food supplies such as a lush berry patch or a rich fishing location. This king grizzly will always be a big, strong, battle-scared brute of a bear. The tiger is a true territorial predator. He will lay claim to a huge expanse of land and defend his property by fighting off all other male tigers and by removing other predators of large prey. He doesn't appreciate competition. This king tiger will always be a large and powerful hunter and fighter. So, what happens when the king grizzly roams into the king tiger's domain? This is my opinion; it is only an opinion: If the tiger manages to launch an unexpected ambush upon the grizzly, thus giving the big cat the intial advantage, the tiger has better than a 50% chance of defeating the grizzly. If the grizzly should manage to launch an unexpected ambush attack on the tiger, then the grizzly has better than a 50% chance of defeating the tiger. Should these two lords of the wild go at it in a face-to-face battle royal, then it is my opinion that the grizzly will defeat the tiger better than 50% of such confrontations. But, as Peter has pointed out, and after giving the matter a great deal of thought, I must agree; if the tiger should come to realize that he is losing to the bear, with his superior agility, the tiger has a fair chance of escaping from the clutches of the grizzly and retreating. In the wild, there is no shame in a life-saving retreat. If the bear should find himself on the losing end of this fight, he has little chance of escaping from the tiger. Retreat for the bear would be difficult considering the big cat's deeply curved claws designed to hold onto powerful struggling herbivores. Therefore, even when the grizzly is victorious in this fight, the tiger will perhaps more often as not escape with his life. But, when the tiger wins the fight, more often as not, the grizzly will be killed and eaten. I must also add that, the winner of this fight will seldom if ever walk away without some gruesome and perhaps life-threatening battle scars.
Pckts, the heaviest grizzly on record in Yellowstone was dumpster-diving Fatso who weighed 1,000 pounds. Grizzlies weighing between 800 and 900 pounds are not common in Wyoming or Montana, but they are there. Check your facts. I did my own research and found that the average, from charts I found over at Shaggy show that fully mature males nine years old and up weigh 500 pounds. This was from a single study. No number can be carved in granite.
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This censorship in the state is overly done. 
The cave lion video is banned on copyright grounds in the USA, I believe. Unfortunate, I remember being able to view it a while back. Youtube has a bot copyrighting many things.
 (11-03-2015, 05:52 AM)brotherbear Wrote: My views and opinions on the topic of grizzly vs tiger are far less fanatical than in years gone by. We live, we learn, and we grow. Some call it flip-flopping; I call it advancing.Interesting theory brotherbear but usually territorial behaviour is usually towards conspecifics versus other species, having said that fights do occur between tigers and bears throughout Asia and usually the tiger presses the attack when it has a size advantage of around 100 lbs or greater, sometimes less, usually tigers avoid large male brown bears as a quick kill in a surprise attack is more difficult, and the chance of winning a protracted struggle is small ..bears are immensely strong animals built for fighting more than the more agile, intelligent, better hunters ( Felids). A 250 kg plus bear will displace any tiger from its kill. King tiger as you said will attempt to eliminate other predators but bears are mainly vegetarian and do not pose the same level of competition like leopards , dholes, and wolves. 
the large bear's are just to big and powerful even for large male lions/tigers.
I think a tiger is a greater opponent to a bear than a lion, not only because they have more interactions with bears than lions, but they are more agile than lions and does have a lower center of gravity, and can use their arms and paws more. but I have read some incredible stories about lion's defeating bear's and have shown amazing courage in fights with bears larger than themselves, but these are of course in captivity...... but in the wild I can't really see a bear stalking a tiger, I think in the cases where a bear kills a tiger, the tiger has taken a huge gamble and failed, or there has been a tiger defending something like a carcass, cubs or a young male who just wanna mess around. from what I know of bears they would much rather stay away from the tiger and steal a kill when a tiger has had a successful hunt. rather than predate on tigers if not the tiger is unlucky. I'm quite sure a tiger would have escaped any attacking bear if they wanted to, tigers are more real predators and they will kill bear's by really hunting them, stalking and pounce the bear. the tiger is a real predator while the ber is an opportunistic omnivore who will kill if he needs to, and does not let an opportunity slipp away, that's why I think it's possible for these two animals to co-exist, but at party a tiger can IMO kill a bear and a bear can kill a tiger.
The Grizzly Almanac by Robert H. Busch.
Males will also fight with other males over females, and many old male grizzlies have deep scars on their muzzles from such encounters. When challenging another male, grizzlies often use what has been termed a "cowboy walk," in which they walk on stiff bowlegs toward each other with lowered head and angry intentions. The posing often deters a fight before it begins, but when an actual tussle occurs, serious injuries can occur. Occasionally, the fights are fatal. The autopsy of one such unfortunate bear, who obviously lost in his fight, revealed 89 puncture wounds, a wide hole in the chest, broken ribs, a broken shoulder, a broken nose, a dislocated neck, and a broken skull. Those males who survive such battles pass on their genes to the next generation.
The Great Bear Almanac by Gary Brown - The sloth bear is known to drive away a leopard from its prey.
Awesome discussion, This is how a discussion should be, Respect each other and debate in gentle manners
Good going brotherbear 
I believe that were there a land where the grizzly shared his habitat with lions, the bear would use his superior sense of smell to carefully avoid these big cats. Lions live, hunt, and fight in groups. Force of numbers is a huge advantage. One-on-one, the grizzly would imo usually be victorious in a rare fight. Those fights in captivity that has been mentioned can be found over at http://shaggygod.proboards.com/board/38/felidae where they show that each of the events where the lion killed the bear were basically more ambush than face-off. According to French historian Michel Pastoureau in his book, 'Bear: History of a Fallen King' in the ancient Roman games, which lasted a very long time, lion vs European bear was a popular event. According to existing records, the bear won this fight every time.
However, as I stated in the beginning of this topic, fights in captivity hold little merit. Lions or tigers in captivity are mere shadows of their wild counterparts. The only interactions meaningful are those which take place in the wild. I must add: There may be some lion vs bear events not found at 'Shaggy'. I would not be surprised to discover where a lion kills a grizzly in a fair face-to-face confrontation. Lions are exceptionally aggressive and capable fighters. (11-03-2015, 07:45 AM)LPantherinae Wrote: the large bear's are just to big and powerful even for large male lions/tigers. Tigers are by no scientific measures more agile than lions, lions are conclusively faster runners than all big cats except cheetahs ( Dr. Luke Hunter in African cats), male lions were clocked at 51 km/hour and 54km/hour and male tigers are estimated to be of comparable range with no actual measured speed. Tigresses are estimated to run at 60 Km/hour yet lionesses in ngorongoro crater were clocked at 20 meters per second ( 72 km/hour) by Canadian biologist Robertson in 1976 for up to 200 meters. I have seen wild lions catch leopards that had 10 meters head start, and captive lions catching tigers with similar head start. Forset cats are superior jumpers and woodland cats are superior runners and all are incredibly agile. And even a massive male lion or tiger that runs at 50 km/ hour is time and a half faster than Usain Bolt. Tigers have evolved with bears and are well adapted to handle them, they know which bears could be potential food, which bears could be potential scavenging thieves, and which bears could pose mortal danger....and it is all about the individual experience of the particular tiger...Charger a male tiger in central India readily killed sloth bears, where there are photos of a sloth bear chasing a courting couple of Bengal tigers, a male and a female, Dale a 180 kg Amur tiger specialized in killing brown bears yet larger tigers than Dale gave up their kills to 100 kg Asiatic black bears!!! The individual experience is quite amazing.
@Dr Panthera it's just a matter of personal opinion, tigers do seem to be able to turn faster and better because of their lower center of gravity, Lions does seem more stiff and if you watch tigers fighting you can see there's more turning, balanceing and fighting on The ground than there is with Lions.
Yes Lions seems to be faster than tigers I've been told extreame cases of Lions reaching 80 km/h, not sure if this is true though, but 72 is sure fast enough. Have you seen lions killing leopards with you're own eye's? If that's The case I envy you 
"Tigers are by no scientific measures more agile than lions, lions are conclusively faster runners than all big cats except cheetahs ( Dr. Luke Hunter in African cats), male lions were clocked at 51 km/hour and 54km/hour and male tigers are estimated to be of comparable range with no actual measured speed.
Tigresses are estimated to run at 60 Km/hour yet lionesses in ngorongoro crater were clocked at 20 meters per second ( 72 km/hour) by Canadian biologist Robertson in 1976 for up to 200 meters. I have seen wild lions catch leopards that had 10 meters head start, and captive lions catching tigers with similar head start. Forset cats are superior jumpers and woodland cats are superior runners and all are incredibly agile. And even a massive male lion or tiger that runs at 50 km/ hour is time and a half faster than Usain Bolt. Tigers have evolved with bears and are well adapted to handle them, they know which bears could be potential food, which bears could be potential scavenging thieves, and which bears could pose mortal danger....and it is all about the individual experience of the particular tiger...Charger a male tiger in central India readily killed sloth bears, where there are photos of a sloth bear chasing a courting couple of Bengal tigers, a male and a female, Dale a 180 kg Amur tiger specialized in killing brown bears yet larger tigers than Dale gave up their kills to 100 kg Asiatic black bears!!! The individual experience is quite amazing. " @DrPanthera Don't forget the male from Ranth. who killed the Mother sloth and her cub, Khara Ghati (SP was his name I believe) he is dead now, unfortunately. There is a video of that as well, if you'd like to watch on youtube. There is actually quite a bit of evidence that suggests tigers being more agile than lions, whether its Jon Varty or others, like Proske who have said that the Lion is not capable of the same athletic feats as the tiger, it specifically comes down to leaping ability and bipedal agility, from what I have seen. So at least I have seen experts who are familiar with both say this, as well as another study on the tigers more powerful joint muscles compared to the lion. ("2 magnificent males") according to the study. I can post the entire pdf if you are unfamiliar with it? On the flip side, I haven't seen any conclusive evidence that suggests a lion is fast than a tiger, nor have a read a single expert of both saying this either. A lion catching a leopard could come down to many factors, surprise, specific leopard etc. I have seen a lion catch a cheetah, but that certainly doesn't mean they are faster, it takes time to get a head of steam and to go from a prone position to a running one. I have also seen lions being outrun by cheetah and leopard even when having a full head of steam and the cheetah/leopard starting from a prone position or a stand still. I have also seen tigers completely outrun lions, jaguars and leopards as well. BlackjaguarWhiteTiger foundation, look up the big pride and Watch Tierra the tigress, she outruns every lion, tiger, jaguar and leopard on a regular basis. She also leaps over them, makes sharper cuts and appears to be significantly more agile. So "estimated" compared to "clocked" hold no weight in a scientific sense, another flaw when choosing that as an example is physical exertion. When clocking or estimating, you have no idea what the % of energy the animal is putting out, so its not reasonable to say one specific animal was clocked at this speed so no other tiger could reach it. (11-03-2015, 06:06 AM)brotherbear Wrote: Pckts, the heaviest grizzly on record in Yellowstone was dumpster-diving Fatso who weighed 1,000 pounds. Grizzlies weighing between 800 and 900 pounds are not common in Wyoming or Montana, but they are there. Check your facts. I did my own research and found that the average, from charts I found over at Shaggy show that fully mature males nine years old and up weigh 500 pounds. This was from a single study. No number can be carved in granite. My facts are from the Yellowstone Facebook page, if you have verified weights of the "1,000 lb fatso" go ahead and post it. The numbers shown say the 597lb bear that has been shrinking was the largest yellowstone grizzly weighed, that is all. |
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