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Bears as Predators ~

United States Pckts Offline
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not sure about how "late in the game" they are, they are all that comes up in regards to bull and bear encounters in
"old california or old mexico"
Not sure where you came to the assumption they were "scrawny or not the great beasts"



"The weight of the grizzly is mush larger than other bears, weighing from eight hundred to sixteen hundred pounds; and some, more than seven feet in length and over two thousand pounds in weight, have been killed in the State of California. These bears are giants in strength and appearance, far surpassing the lion and tiger."

"It was between these monsters and the fierce Spanish bull that the desperate struggles formerly took place, when a dollar a head was willingly paid to see the bull and bear fight in California. "

Also, according to this, it wasn't until the spanish brought their bulls to california that they were able to have Bull vs bear fights


"The Spanish brought many things with them when they colonized California, including the tradition of bull-fights. These new settlers herded cattle with them, letting their cows and bulls graze freely over unfenced land. The cattle were primarily used for their hide and tallow, which became cornerstones of Alta California’s colonial economy. But the bulls weren’t the only huge and potentially vicious mammal around; when they arrived in California, the newcomers became fascinated with the grizzly bear.

The Californios, as the Californians of Spanish descent[1] were called, were legendarily skilled with the horse and lasso (‘reata’ in Spanish). Several horsemen would ride out to capture a grizzly bear with their reatas and bring the captured animal back to the town where the fight was to be held.  German explorer Georg Heinrich von Langsdorff described the process after witnessing parts of it in San Francisco in 1806:"



account of such an event
"Four o’clock, the hour appointed for the fight between the bear and the bull, having arrived, a few taps by the drummer, and some popular airs played by the other musicians, announced that the amphitheatre, which fronted the church and stood but a few yards from it, was open for the reception of those who desired admission. I made my way to the ticket-office, and handed three dollars to the collector, who placed in my hand a voucher, which gained me access to an eligible seat within the inclosure. I found myself among the first who entered; and as it was some time before the whole audience assembled, I had ample opportunities to scan the characters who composed it, and to examine the arrangement and disposition of things around me.
The Seats were very properly elevated so high above the arena that no danger was likely to result from the furious animals; and I suppose five thousand persons could have been conveniently accommodated, though only about three-fourths of that number were present. Among the auditory, I noticed many Spanish maids and matrons, who manifested as much enthusiasm and delight in anticipation of what was to follow as the most enthusiastic sportsman on the ground. Crying children, too, in the arms of self-satisfied and admiring mothers, were there, full of noise and mischief…Of men, there were all sizes, colors and classes, such as California, and California alone, can bring together.
It was a stirring sight to see these infuriated and muscular antagonists struggling to take each other’s life…It was a mighty contest—a desperate struggle for victory!
Finally, however, fatigued, exhausted, writhing with pain and weltering in sweat and gore, they waived the quarrel and separated, as if by mutual consent. Neither was subdued; yet both felt a desire to suspend, for a time at least, all further hostilities. The bull, now exhausted and panting, cast a pacific glance towards the bear, and seemed to sue for an armistice; the bear, bleeding and languid after his furious contest, raised his eyes to the bull, and seemed to assent to the proposition. But, alas! man, cruel man, more brutal than the brutes themselves, would not permit them to carry out their pacific intentions. The two attendants or managers, Ignacio and Gomez, stepped up behind them, goading them with spears till they again rushed upon each other, and fought with renewed desperation. During this scuffle, the bull shattered the lower jaw of the bear, and we could see the shivered bones dangling from their bloody recesses!…neither the bull nor bear could stand any longer—their limbs refused to support their bodies; they had worried and lacerated each other so much that their strength had completely failed, and they dropped upon the earth, gasping as if in the last agony. While in this helpless condition the chain was removed from their feet, horses were hitched to them, and they were dragged without the arena, there to end their miseries in death.(Snyder, 123-5)"
http://www.freeposterprogram.org/bears-bulls/
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
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India brotherbear Offline
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Not sure where you came to the assumption they were "scrawny or not the great beasts" 
Not any assumptions; history. I'll have to dig it up... soon.
 Grizzly  - Boss of the Woods.
        
  
             
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Switzerland Spalea Online
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@Pckts:

About #106: extremely pathetic and despicable. Already ready to expend so much in order to see two animals to molest each other to death in an arena.

And, since then, the California grizzly disappeared...
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India brotherbear Offline
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( This post was last modified: 07-21-2016, 01:35 PM by brotherbear )

'California Grizzly' by Tracy I. Storer and Lloyd P. Tevis Jr. - copyright 1955.
The Spanish Californian had a temperament too emotional and fiery for him to be content with a quiet and humdrum existence. Craving excitement and color and being free to devote himself to the "grand and primary business of enjoyment of life," he seized upon every opportunity for dangerous sport, social gaiety, and devotional pageantry. He was adept at arranging spectacles - from solemn Mass in his missions to all-night dances in his adobes and thundering rodeos on the range - in which color and drama, and not infrequently blood and violence, combined to arouse the emotions. But of all these forms of excitement, nothing so impressed and horrified the Anglo-Saxon visitor - and was least understood by him - as the fights between grizzlies and wild bulls that were staged during fiestas and on feast days and Sundays at the missions, pueblos, and presidios. 
These fights were an outgrowth of the sporting heritage and temperament of the people. In Spain, ever since the Latin races had first gone to the Pyrenees, battles between bears and bulls had been a form of amusement ( Kingsley, 1920 ). The Californian colonists, therefore, would have been untrue to their ancestry if they had failed to avail themselves of an exceptional opportunity to continue this tradition. Grizzlies, present in abundance, could be captured with the reata, and cattle were numerous. Natural conflicts with bears on the range were proof of the inherent antipathy of the two species. Under these circumstances, it was inevitable that in California the bear-and-bull fight reached a higher stage of development than anywhere else in the world.
 Grizzly  - Boss of the Woods.
        
  
             
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India brotherbear Offline
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Continued from post #109... The earliest formal fight of which we have record was held at Monterey in 1816 in honor of the newly appointed Governor of California, Pablo Vicente de Sola. At that time, however, the techniques for such a contest were already well established, and it is certain that fighting between bears and bulls had thrilled the people of the capital for a number of years previously. 
Fights between bears and bulls probably were staged in all settlements of Spanish California. In some towns a special arena was built consisting of a strong wooden fence to contain the beasts and a raised platform for the women and children, most of the men stayed on horseback outside the ring ( Bancroft, 1888 ). Monterey, the capital, had an arena of adobe and stone walls. Other towns utilized the plaza, which, being surrounded by buildings, needed to be barricaded only at the street exits. Overhanging balconies provided choice vantage points for the ladies.
According to Guadalupe Vallejo ( 1890 ), "The principal... fights were held at Easter and on the day of the patron saint of the Mission, which at San Jose was March 19." Having given a number of hours to prayer and religious rituals, the people were ready and eager for the noise and thrills of a holiday. Nothing satisfied their appetite for excitement better than to unleash a bear against a bull. If such a fight had been arranged, the crowd, on streaming out of the church, would gather to make bets and take refreshments. Then in a high state of anticipation the people would cluster about the arena and wait for the sport to begin.
 Grizzly  - Boss of the Woods.
        
  
             
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Switzerland Spalea Online
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@brotherbear:

#109: You're quite right and you describe perfectly the spanish californians' temperament... The romans were able to seek wild animals in North Africa and bring them into the arena. The spanish people brought big bulls in order to confront agains the biggest known bears in California...

Previous sort and form of show business. Now, here are the olympic games and the biggest football tournaments...

Same logic, even if the animals never asked to be ripped of their natural environments.
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India brotherbear Offline
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( This post was last modified: 07-21-2016, 07:51 PM by brotherbear )

California Grizzly by Tracy I. Storer and Lloyde P. Tevis Jr. - 1955. 
The adversaries that the grizzlies met in the arena were not the stolid, domesticated Herefords commonly seen on the California range today but were "the lithe, thick-necked Spanish bulls, sharp of horn, quick of foot, always ready for a fight, and with a charge like that of a catapult" ( Kingsley, 1920 ). These bulls, combining weight, speed, agility, and sharpness of horn with bad temper, were exceedingly dangerous to both man and bear. Wistar ( 1937 ) called the Spanish bull the noblest game in America, with the possible exception of the... California grizzly. He knows no fear, and shrinks from no enemy, having been accustomed all his life to fighting his rivals and other formidable animals, and when surrounded by his family is always spoiling for a fight. He will come a mile for his enemy, and will as lief charge a hundred men as one.
 Grizzly  - Boss of the Woods.
        
  
             
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United States Pckts Offline
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(07-21-2016, 12:37 PM)HSpalea Wrote: @Pckts:

About #106: extremely pathetic and despicable. Already ready to expend so much in order to see two animals to molest each other to death in an arena.

And, since then, the California grizzly disappeared...

I agree, even in a time where this event was common and accepted, the witness still makes it a point to speak on the cruelty of man.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
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India brotherbear Offline
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After the animals had been brought into the arena, a hind leg of the grizzly would be attached by a "leather cord" ( Carter, 1929 ), about twenty yards in length, to a forefoot of the bull; this kept the antagonists close together and also discouraged the bear from climbing the barrier and rampaging among the crowd. Then the handlers withdrew, and, as was observed by Robinson ( 1846 ), the two creatures remained sole occupants of the square. 
( in my own words )... in all of my books covering this subject, this is the only reference I have found of the bull and bear being tethered to each other. In all other references, the bear alone is tethered to a post while the bull is let loose upon the bear untethered.
 Grizzly  - Boss of the Woods.
        
  
             
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India brotherbear Offline
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Our tabulations of fight results during the Spanish period show that the grizzlies most often triumphed. Robinson ( 1846 ), however, thought that a strong bull could cope with two bears in an afternoon; Garner ( 1847 ) said that "an old mountain bull" was sure to be the victor; and Gibbs ( 1853 ) stated that the conflicts usually ended with "the death of both parties." Leonard ( 1904 ) wrote that "the bear is much the stronger, but it has no chance of avoiding the thrusts of the bull, in consequence of the smallness of the pen; but in an open field, a grizzly bear will conquer a bull in a few moments."
In contrast to these statements, Wilkes ( 1844 ) had the positive opinion that bears always won regardless of the size and temper of their adversaries. Bancroft ( 1886 ) cites a record of a bear that killed three bulls. Pattie ( Flint, 1930 ) observed a contest in which fourteen bulls were conquered by five bears. Bell ( 1930 ) tells of a grizzly that killed three bulls one after the other and then was overcome by the fourth.
 Grizzly  - Boss of the Woods.
        
  
             
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India brotherbear Offline
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California's Day of the Grizzly by William B. Secrest.

"Lassoing Grizzlies Most Dangerous Sport," Lincoln Nebraska Evening News, July 19, 1904:

This bull was the idle of the people. He had amused them for a long time, never failing to kill the bears he was pitted against. He knew his business, this red bull. If one death thrust did not reach home, he had a new one for the next rush.

When they brought him up to the old Franciscan mission the morning of this gala day; everyone shouted and making desperate efforts to loosen the ropes that bound him, was as good as dead already. Only the Indian, who had lassoed the bear and with considerable assistance brought him to town, was willing to bet on the bear. He had nothing but a cayuse ( horse ) and his saddle, and he would have bet that a thousand times over.

We made a great ring in front of the mission, where there was a level place, a great ring of men, women, and children, and here and there a padre. They brought in the bull, with one rope tied to his foreleg. The bear loosened, all but one rope fastened to one of his hind paws. This was to keep him from running away when the red bull began to gore him.

As the bull charged with a mighty bellow, we held our breath and waited. The grizzly was waiting too and reared up on his haunches, looking as big as an abode hut. They came togetherbut the bull's horns did not even ruffle the fur on the bear's chest. Too quick had the bear seized the massive head and held it to the ground. For a moment they swayed there, neither giving nor gaining an inch. As the peons ran up to separate them, the bear struck out quickly with one of his huge paws and tore a gash in the bull's neck. The red fellow, with a growing anger that was terrible, drew back for a second charge. It was as useless as the first. The bear seized and stopped him, holding his head to the ground. Again the peons pulled them apart.

It was a prize fight with regular rounds, this fight of honor of the great general. On the forth or fifth charge the bull gored the bear, but the wound did not seem to disable him greatly. In the seventh round - suppose we call it round - the bear dodged the charge and tore the bull's shoulder terribly. That bear knew his business too.

So the fight went until the bull had charged fifteen, twenty, twenty-one times. Then the commandant put an end to it. It was plain that the bear was going to get the better of the fight, that he would kill the red bull, and that the commandant did not care to afford it. It was indeed a battle royal, and I, for one, was sorry when they tossed a lasso around the bear's neck and slowly strangled him to death.
 Grizzly  - Boss of the Woods.
        
  
             
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India brotherbear Offline
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The California Grizzly - bear in mind - from the collections of the Bancroft Library:

Sometimes bulls were pitted against bears, the bears generally coming out victorious. I witnessed an event in Santa Barbara in which a bear killed three bulls, one after the other. For these fights they tied the beasts by one paw and sometimes they tied two together by the forepaws, leaving them a lot of rope. Under these conditions they fought to a frenzy. The usual thing was to leave the bull loose. He would generally attack first, and the bear would be defending itself. When the bull came at it, the bear would put its forepaw on his forehead and grab him by the leg and hold him as though he were a piece of straw. In this way the bear overcame him, making him lower his head. When he bellowed, it grabbed his tongue, and then it would be necessary to separate them so that the bear would not immediately kill the bull. There were occasions on which the bull killed the bear with his horns, but this was only if the bear was badly injured after having been tied down tightly in a cart and brought over a long distance.
 Grizzly  - Boss of the Woods.
        
  
             
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India brotherbear Offline
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The Grizzly Book by Jack Samson. 

Posters were plastered upon trees and rocks. WAR! WAR! WAR! The celebrated Bull-Killing Bear, General Scott will fight a Bull on Sunday the 15th inst. at 2 p.m. at Moquelumne Hill. 

The bear will be chained with a twenty-foot chain in the middle of the arena. The Bull will be perfectly wild, young, of the Spanish breed and the best that can be found in the country. The Bull's horns will be of their natural length, and not sawed off to prevent accidents! The Bull will be quite free in the arena, and not hampered in any way whatever. 

General Scott, a grizzly of some twelve hundred pounds, had killed several bulls in previous bouts, and during his introduction and that of the bull, the assembly amused itself by placing bets with each other as to the outcome. The bull was at first a reluctant participant, and had to be lured into the arena by the waving of a red flag. Eventually the bull charged, and each animal fought as it would in the wild; horns and power of charge against enormous strength and lacerating embraces. The bull, as was usually the case in such contests, was finally killed by the grizzly. The proprietors, as was also the custom, then announced that for an additional fee, another bull would be pitted against General Scott, and three or four men passed around hats which were quickly filled. The new bull was also dispatched, and the crowd filed out in high spirits. One of them remarked to Borthwick that it had been "the finest fight ever fit in the country." 

A Solitary Beast by Michael Jenkins
 Grizzly  - Boss of the Woods.
        
  
             
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India brotherbear Offline
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MAN MEETS GRIZZLY - Gathered by F.M.Young - 1980.

In the great fiestas of times past at the missions and presidios there was always a bull fight for the entertainment of the crowd. The last one on record that I know of took place at Pala, a branch or asistencia of the once great Mission of San Luis Rey, in the mountains of San Diego County, nearly fifty years ago. One of the American newspapers in California published an account of it written by a correspondent who was present. I have the clipping of that and as it is a better-written description than I could produce myself, I give it herewith: "The bear was an ugly grizzly that for years had roamed the pineclad region of Palomar Mountain, rising six thousand feet above the little mission. Tied to a huge post in the center of the old abode-walled quadrangle he stood almost as high as a horse, a picture of fury such as painter never conceived. His hind feet were tethered with several turns of a strong rawhide riata, but were left about a yard apart to give play. To the center of this rawhide, between the two feet, was fastened another heavy riata, doubled and secured to a big loop made of double riatas thrown over the center post. The services of a man on horseback with a long pole were constantly needed to keep the raging monster from chewing through the rawhide ropes.
 Grizzly  - Boss of the Woods.
        
  
             
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India brotherbear Offline
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Continued from post #119... First Bull.
"By the time the bear had stormed around long enough to get well limbered up after being tied all night, the signal was given, the horseman affected his disappearance, and in dashed a bull through an open gate. He was of the old longhorn breed but of great weight and power. He had been roaming the hills all summer, living like a deer in the chaparral of the rough mountains and was quick and wild as any deer. He too, like old Bruin, had been captured with the noosed lasso in a sudden dash of horsemen on a little flat he had to cross to go to a spring at daylight, and felt no more in love with mankind than did the bear. As he dashed across the arena it looked as if the fight was going to be an unequaled one, but the bear gave a glance that intimated that no one need waste sympathy on him. 
"No creature is so ready for immediate business than is the bull turned loose in an amphitheater of human faces. He seems to know they are there to see him fight and he wants them to get their money's worth. So, as soon as the gate admits him, he goes for everything in sight with the dash of a cyclone. Things that outside he would fly from or not notice, he darts at as eagerly as a terrier for a rat the instant he sees them in the ring. 
"This bull came from the same mountains as the bear and they were old acquaintances, though the acquaintance had been cultivated on the run as the bull tore with thundering hoofs through the tough manzanita and went plunging down the steep hillside as the evening breeze wafted the strong scent of the bear to his keen nose. But now, in the arena, he spent no time looking for a way of escape but, at a pace that seemed impossible for even the great weight of the bear to resist, he rushed across the ring directly at the enemy as if he had been looking for him all of his life. 
"With wonderful quickness for so large an animal the bear rose on his legs and coolly waited until the long sharp horns were within a yard of his breast. Then up went the great paws, one on each side of the bull's head, and the sharp points of the horns whirled up from horizontal to perpendicular, then almost to horizontal again as bull and bear went rolling over together. In a twinkling the bear was on his feet again, but the bull lay limp as a rag, his neck broken.
 Grizzly  - Boss of the Woods.
        
  
             
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