There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
--- Peter Broekhuijsen ---
Top Posts of the month: You can nominate the best written and quality info posts as the top post of the month. Help us to choose and feature them in our special section. Click here to learn more about it and how you can help us

  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Bears and Big Cats Interactions during Prehistoric Times

Switzerland Spalea Online
Wildanimal Lover
*****
#1
( This post was last modified: 10-31-2017, 08:49 PM by Ngala )

What do you think about this - apparently - serious link ? :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/12819243

Do you believe that it was possible that cave lions targeted cave bears as prey during their hibernation ? It was a very highly dangerous hunting - for this reason one -, only the male lions dared to attack the big bears...

In general, can we conclude that, individually of course a cave bear in Europa, an arctodus simus in North America are on the top of the food chain, are the top predators , but in prides cave lions in Europa, and american lions could perhaps compete with them ? Against an adult bear (cave bear ou arctodus as well), two or three males lions making up/constituting an very serious opposition could have the last word.
3 users Like Spalea's post
Reply

United States brotherbear Offline
Grizzly Enthusiast
*****
Moderators
#2
( This post was last modified: 02-07-2016, 07:28 PM by brotherbear )

http://shaggygod.proboards.com/board/32/eurasia 
 
*First posted by Grraahh:  [b]3.8. Lions as Cave Bear Killers
[/b]

All of the cave bear den caves studied in Germany contain only 1–3% of lion bones of Panthera leo spelaea as the only known large Late Pleistocene cold period felid of central Europe [85], of which none are from cubs and those from juveniles or early adults are extremely rare [10, 46, 47, 60, 74, 86]. The highest rate of lion mortality in caves occurs at their peak reproductive age, as has been recently demonstrated for the largest known European steppe lion population in the Zoolithen Cave [10] (Figure 14(a)). Articulated lion skeletons have also been found between cave bear skeletons deep within the Ursilor Cave, as far as 800 metres from the entrance, these being the only large predator remains found so deep inside a cave bear cave [3]. Modern lions being good climbers and nocturnal hunters [75, 76], the Late Pleistocene lions appear to have been active in killing cave bears also in darkness deep in caves [10], probably largely during the winter when the bears were hibernating [10]. Whether the bears were killed by prides of lions or by individuals remains unclear, but a lion pride would probably be required for successful hunting of adult cave bears [10] and could have even successfully defended it against hyenas, such as well documented about the lion-hyena antagonism in Africa about megafauna prey [87–89]. The cave bear consuming of Late Pleistocene steppe lions was also proven recently with nitrogen isotopic analyses [73]. As with modern lions, the Ice Age steppe lions probably fed first of all on the intestines and inner organs of the bears (Figure 13(a)), leaving large canine tooth marks and scratches on the bones, especially on the soft spongiosa of vertebrae and long bone joints, as found in the cave bear bone material from the Sophie’s Cave (Figures 6–9). The bite damages on skulls of both, lions [90] and cave bears (Figure 15) seem to have resulted from their battles in the caves from intra- or interspecies fights.


[b]Source: Cajus G. Diedrich, “Extinctions of Late Ice Age Cave Bears as a Result of Climate/Habitat Change and Large Carnivore Lion/Hyena/Wolf Predation Stress in Europe,” ISRN Zoology, vol. 2013, Article ID 138319, 25 pages, 2013. [/b]
 Grizzly  - Boss of the Woods.
        
  
             
4 users Like brotherbear's post
Reply

United States brotherbear Offline
Grizzly Enthusiast
*****
Moderators
#3

It has been my understanding that the lions would enter the cave seeking bear cubs and, in doing so would sometimes awaken the mother bear. Is there evidence of sex and age of cave bears killed by lions? 
 Grizzly  - Boss of the Woods.
        
  
             
2 users Like brotherbear's post
Reply

United States tigerluver Offline
Prehistoric Feline Expert
*****
Moderators
#4

Bocherens et al. (2011) answers the cave lion-bear relationship much more thoroughly with molecular evidence. Points applicable here:
  • The results of the present work strongly support the hypothesis that cave lions had an individualistic predatory behaviour. The scattering of their isotopic values suggests that different individuals were consuming prey with contrasting isotopic signature on a regular basis. This is in agreement with previous palaeobiological reconstructions based on the poor development of mane in male cave lions as documented by prehistoric parietal art that would indicate solitary hunting behaviour or hunting by breeding pairs of lion and lioness (Guthrie, 1990), although the relationship between mane development and social behaviour of lion is contested by others (e.g., Yamaguchi et al., 2004).
  • The possibility that some cave lions consumed high proportion of cave bears, especially young ones, is supported by the present study. Predation by cave lion has been suggested previously as a mortality cause of cave bear yearlings (e.g., Weinstock, 1999) and even the habit of cave bears to hibernated deep into cave system has been suggested to be a defence against predation by cave lions, among others (Diedrich, 2009b). The fact that the bone collagen of some individuals of cave lions was strongly influenced by the isotopic signature of young cave bears and that this tissue records an average of the food consumed during several years suggests that consumption of young cave bear may not have been accidental but was rather performed on a regular basis by some cave lions. Among modern lions, some individual dietary specialization on unusual prey has been documented, for instance the so-called “man-eaters from Tsavo”, and were found especially in case of prey scarcity and in individuals suffering from craniodental infirmities (Yeakel et al., 2009).
The social structure of cave lion is debated, there is evidence supporting both solitary and pride behavior. The above study support solitary to pair behavior. Young bears were the prime target, also indicating solitary behavior, as a single cave lion could take on a young one which would be similar sized to the late Pleistocene cave lion (~230 kg). The rest of the study is attached.

Attached Files
.pdf   Isotopic evidence for dietary ecology of cave lion (Panthera spelaea).pdf (Size: 816.24 KB / Downloads: 2)
6 users Like tigerluver's post
Reply

Canada Dr Panthera Offline
Pharmacist and biologist
***
#5

(02-07-2016, 07:22 PM)brotherbear Wrote: http://shaggygod.proboards.com/board/32/eurasia 
 
*First posted by Grraahh:  [b]3.8. Lions as Cave Bear Killers
[/b]

All of the cave bear den caves studied in Germany contain only 1–3% of lion bones of Panthera leo spelaea as the only known large Late Pleistocene cold period felid of central Europe [85], of which none are from cubs and those from juveniles or early adults are extremely rare [10, 46, 47, 60, 74, 86]. The highest rate of lion mortality in caves occurs at their peak reproductive age, as has been recently demonstrated for the largest known European steppe lion population in the Zoolithen Cave [10] (Figure 14(a)). Articulated lion skeletons have also been found between cave bear skeletons deep within the Ursilor Cave, as far as 800 metres from the entrance, these being the only large predator remains found so deep inside a cave bear cave [3]. Modern lions being good climbers and nocturnal hunters [75, 76], the Late Pleistocene lions appear to have been active in killing cave bears also in darkness deep in caves [10], probably largely during the winter when the bears were hibernating [10]. Whether the bears were killed by prides of lions or by individuals remains unclear, but a lion pride would probably be required for successful hunting of adult cave bears [10] and could have even successfully defended it against hyenas, such as well documented about the lion-hyena antagonism in Africa about megafauna prey [87–89]. The cave bear consuming of Late Pleistocene steppe lions was also proven recently with nitrogen isotopic analyses [73]. As with modern lions, the Ice Age steppe lions probably fed first of all on the intestines and inner organs of the bears (Figure 13(a)), leaving large canine tooth marks and scratches on the bones, especially on the soft spongiosa of vertebrae and long bone joints, as found in the cave bear bone material from the Sophie’s Cave (Figures 6–9). The bite damages on skulls of both, lions [90] and cave bears (Figure 15) seem to have resulted from their battles in the caves from intra- or interspecies fights.


[b]Source: Cajus G. Diedrich, “Extinctions of Late Ice Age Cave Bears as a Result of Climate/Habitat Change and Large Carnivore Lion/Hyena/Wolf Predation Stress in Europe,” ISRN Zoology, vol. 2013, Article ID 138319, 25 pages, 2013. [/b]

Very interesting information.
I think the degree of predation on cave bears by lions was more in winter when bears hibernated and when ungulates were not available.
My French biology professor speculated that similar relationship existed between Barbary lions and Atlas brown bears in North Africa and between Asiatic lions and Syrian brown bears in the Levant and Iraq
5 users Like Dr Panthera's post
Reply

United States brotherbear Offline
Grizzly Enthusiast
*****
Moderators
#6

Interesting Dr. panthera. Both the Atlas and the Syrian brown bears are ( were ) rather small bears. The Syrian, which is quite endangered at present, is among the smallest of living brown bears. However, I saw one about four years ago at "Tiger World" in North Carolina named Brutus that is a very large bear; my estimation about 500 pounds.
 Grizzly  - Boss of the Woods.
        
  
             
2 users Like brotherbear's post
Reply

Switzerland Spalea Online
Wildanimal Lover
*****
#7

Very fascinating studies and accounts ! Thank !

I retain that cave lions were serious competitors with the cave bears. A more serious opponent against cave bear than any actual predator towards grizzly bears. The main question is to determine how sociable these big cats were. As concerns the cave lion and also the panthera athrox in North America about his behaviour with the Arctodus Simus.

If these pleistocene lions were as sociable as the actual lions, we can think that even an giant short faced bear could not expel a lions pride from a kill. The giant short faced bear and the north american lion (in prides) being together the apex predators.

The animals life of the pleistocene age were undoubtedly high-risk...
4 users Like Spalea's post
Reply

Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
Canine Expert
*****
Moderators
#8
( This post was last modified: 02-08-2016, 03:55 AM by GrizzlyClaws )

I think Cave lions mostly targeted on those herbivorous Cave bears such as Ursus spelaeus, but not on those highly carnivorous ones such as Ursus ingressus.
4 users Like GrizzlyClaws's post
Reply

Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
Canine Expert
*****
Moderators
#9

(02-08-2016, 12:35 AM)Spalea Wrote: Very fascinating studies and accounts ! Thank !

I retain that cave lions were serious competitors with the cave bears. A more serious opponent against cave bear than any actual predator towards grizzly bears. The main question is to determine how sociable these big cats were. As concerns the cave lion and also the panthera athrox in North America about his behaviour with the Arctodus Simus.

If these pleistocene lions were as sociable as the actual lions, we can think that even an giant short faced bear could not expel a lions pride from a kill. The giant short faced bear and the north american lion (in prides) being together the apex predators.

The animals life of the pleistocene age were undoubtedly high-risk...

Yes, the Pleistocene Cave lions/American lions were the true lions, but they have been genetically isolated from the Afro-Asiatic lions for over a million years, so their genome has been mutated into a distinct species.

The same circumstance it has been observed so far are the two distinct species of Gorilla, Chimpanzee, Orangutan, Clouded leopard.

They were a distinct species, but it still made them the true lions nevertheless.
5 users Like GrizzlyClaws's post
Reply

United States brotherbear Offline
Grizzly Enthusiast
*****
Moderators
#10
( This post was last modified: 02-08-2016, 03:30 AM by brotherbear )

I had to research this one:  http://prehistoric-fauna.com/Ursus-ingressus

Ursus ingressus

Order: Carnivora
Family: Ursidae
Dimensions: length - 2,3 m, height - 125 сm, weight - 100-300 kg
Temporal range: Pleistocene of Europe

"Whereas U. spelaeus inhabited mainly low and medium elevation areas, U. ingressus has mostly been found in medium and high elevated regions (Baryshnikov and Puzachenko, 2011). Recent isotopic analyses showed also some dietary differentiation between these cave bear haplogroups (Bocherens et al., 2011; Dotsika et al., 2011). Ursus ingressus was likely better adapted to continental environments and, thus, might have outperformed U. spelaeus during cold and arid climate conditions (Baryshnikov and Puzachenko, 2011). "
The vast majority of fossil remains in Late Pleistocene deposits from Niedźwiedzia Cave in Kletno, Sudetes, Poland, belong to the cave bear. Phylogenetic analyses based on a fragment of the mitochondrial D-loop region extracted from two cave bear samples unambiguously showed their close relationship with the Ursus ingressus haplogroup. This taxonomic affiliation of the cave bear remains from Niedźwiedzia Cave was further confirmed by biometrical analyses of molar teeth and skulls. Our results represent the first record of U. ingressus north of the Carpathian Arch, while radiocarbon dating (> 49,000 yr BP) of the samples indicates that they represent some of the oldest specimens of this cave bear taxon known so far. Multi-method phylogenetic analyses including numerous publicly available cave bear sequences allowed analysing the relationships among these samples in details, including the significance of particular clades, and discussing some aspects of cave bear phylogeography. The sequences of U. ingressus from Poland are most closely related to specimens from the Ural Mountains and next to Slovenia, which may indicate migrations between Central and Eastern European populations. The internal placement of Ural

Palaeoclimatic information from isotopic signatures of Late Pleistocene Ursus ingressus bone and teeth apatite (Loutra Arideas Cave, Macedonia, Greece).


Article: Genetic analysis of cave bear specimens from Niedźwiedzia cave, sudetes, Poland
M. Baca · A. Stankovic · K. Stefaniak · A. Marciszak · M. Hofreiter · A. Nadachowski · P. Wegleński · P. Mackiewicz
 Grizzly  - Boss of the Woods.
        
  
             
3 users Like brotherbear's post
Reply

Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
Canine Expert
*****
Moderators
#11
( This post was last modified: 02-08-2016, 03:50 AM by GrizzlyClaws )

(02-08-2016, 03:30 AM)brotherbear Wrote: I had to research this one:  http://prehistoric-fauna.com/Ursus-ingressus

Ursus ingressus

Order: Carnivora
Family: Ursidae
Dimensions: length - 2,3 m, height - 125 сm, weight - 100-300 kg
Temporal range: Pleistocene of Europe

"Whereas U. spelaeus inhabited mainly low and medium elevation areas, U. ingressus has mostly been found in medium and high elevated regions (Baryshnikov and Puzachenko, 2011). Recent isotopic analyses showed also some dietary differentiation between these cave bear haplogroups (Bocherens et al., 2011; Dotsika et al., 2011). Ursus ingressus was likely better adapted to continental environments and, thus, might have outperformed U. spelaeus during cold and arid climate conditions (Baryshnikov and Puzachenko, 2011). "
The vast majority of fossil remains in Late Pleistocene deposits from Niedźwiedzia Cave in Kletno, Sudetes, Poland, belong to the cave bear. Phylogenetic analyses based on a fragment of the mitochondrial D-loop region extracted from two cave bear samples unambiguously showed their close relationship with the Ursus ingressus haplogroup. This taxonomic affiliation of the cave bear remains from Niedźwiedzia Cave was further confirmed by biometrical analyses of molar teeth and skulls. Our results represent the first record of U. ingressus north of the Carpathian Arch, while radiocarbon dating (> 49,000 yr BP) of the samples indicates that they represent some of the oldest specimens of this cave bear taxon known so far. Multi-method phylogenetic analyses including numerous publicly available cave bear sequences allowed analysing the relationships among these samples in details, including the significance of particular clades, and discussing some aspects of cave bear phylogeography. The sequences of U. ingressus from Poland are most closely related to specimens from the Ural Mountains and next to Slovenia, which may indicate migrations between Central and Eastern European populations. The internal placement of Ural  

Palaeoclimatic information from isotopic signatures of Late Pleistocene Ursus ingressus bone and teeth apatite (Loutra Arideas Cave, Macedonia, Greece).


Article: Genetic analysis of cave bear specimens from Niedźwiedzia cave, sudetes, Poland
M. Baca · A. Stankovic · K. Stefaniak · A. Marciszak · M. Hofreiter · A. Nadachowski · P. Wegleński · P. Mackiewicz

Those highly carnivorous "Ursus spelaeus" were later turned out to be Ursus ingressus.

And some Ursus ingressus specimens from Romania were just as large as Ursus spelaeus.

The Romanian "Ursus spelaeus" is de facto Ursus ingressus, and the real Ursus spelaeus were mostly found in the Central European countries like Germany and Austria.


*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author
6 users Like GrizzlyClaws's post
Reply

United States brotherbear Offline
Grizzly Enthusiast
*****
Moderators
#12
( This post was last modified: 02-08-2016, 05:57 PM by brotherbear )

I have learned to distinguish the cave bear from the brown bear by the high-domed forehead described sometimes as being "teddy bear-like." That skull is impressive. I did not know that there was a more carnivorous form of cave bear. Information highly appreciated.  
 Grizzly  - Boss of the Woods.
        
  
             
3 users Like brotherbear's post
Reply

United States brotherbear Offline
Grizzly Enthusiast
*****
Moderators
#13
( This post was last modified: 02-12-2016, 06:43 PM by brotherbear )

http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/12819243 
 
Hunters become victims
Backing this idea are two cave bear skulls found within Zoolithen cave, which have been marked by lion's teeth.

*This image is copyright of its original author
Sketch of a cave lion skeleton

Also found are the skeletons of giant hyenas, which also frequented similar Pleistocene caves.
They suggest that lions and hyenas also did battle, with some of these lion remains being dragged into the caves by giant hyenas, packs of which either killed the lions of scavenged their carcasses.
And hyenas may have scavenged cave bear bodies.
"Lions and hyenas ate the intestines and inner organs first," says Dr Diedrich.
But they also strongly suggest that some cave lions lost the fight with cave bears.
Being herbivorous, the cave bears wouldn't have scavenged the bodies of any lions they killed.
Instead they would have just trampled them into the cave floor, leaving the evidence we see today of these titanic struggles.
 Grizzly  - Boss of the Woods.
        
  
             
4 users Like brotherbear's post
Reply

Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
Canine Expert
*****
Moderators
#14
( This post was last modified: 02-13-2016, 02:21 AM by GrizzlyClaws )

Some carnivorous Cave bear species such as Ursus ingressus would occasionally scavenge on Cave lion's bodies just like some Amur Brown bears did to the Amur tigers.
3 users Like GrizzlyClaws's post
Reply

United States brotherbear Offline
Grizzly Enthusiast
*****
Moderators
#15

GrizzlyClaws, how would the big cave bears, in your opinion, compare with today's Kodiak bears? 
 Grizzly  - Boss of the Woods.
        
  
             
1 user Likes brotherbear's post
Reply






Users browsing this thread:
1 Guest(s)

About Us
Go Social  

Welcome to WILDFACT forum, a website that focuses on sharing the joy that wildlife has on offer. We welcome all wildlife lovers to join us in sharing that joy. As a member you can share your research, knowledge and experience on animals with the community.
wildfact.com is intended to serve as an online resource for wildlife lovers of all skill levels from beginners to professionals and from all fields that belong to wildlife anyhow. Our focus area is wild animals from all over world. Content generated here will help showcase the work of wildlife experts and lovers to the world. We believe by the help of your informative article and content we will succeed to educate the world, how these beautiful animals are important to survival of all man kind.
Many thanks for visiting wildfact.com. We hope you will keep visiting wildfact regularly and will refer other members who have passion for wildlife.

Forum software by © MyBB