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Bears and Big Cats Interactions during Prehistoric Times

Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
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#16

I think they were slightly bigger with the weight upper range to 1 tonne.

All European Cave bear species were closely related to each other as they both descended from the European Etruscan bear.

The Brown bear is overall more distantly related as being descended from the Asian subspecies of the Etruscan bear.

The Etruscan bear should be considered as the first species of the Brown bear lineage.
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Canada Dr Panthera Offline
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#17

(02-08-2016, 12:17 AM)brotherbear Wrote: Interesting Dr. panthera. Both the Atlas and the Syrian brown bears are ( were ) rather small bears. The Syrian, which is quite endangered at present, is among the smallest of living brown bears. However, I saw one about four years ago at "Tiger World" in North Carolina named Brutus that is a very large bear; my estimation about 500 pounds.

Indeed and most predation on bears by big cats , current and historic, is mainly on smaller bears, smaller species, smaller individuals, and younger ones...tigers , leopards, snow leopards, pumas, historically lions, and possibly jaguars all comfortably handle ursids smaller than themselves, and more often than not of equal size to them.
Big males and even oversized female bears are practically immune to predation.
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India brotherbear Offline
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#18

(02-08-2016, 12:35 AM)Spalea Wrote: Very fascinating studies and accounts ! Thank !

I retain that cave lions were serious competitors with the cave bears. A more serious opponent against cave bear than any actual predator towards grizzly bears. The main question is to determine how sociable these big cats were. As concerns the cave lion and also the panthera athrox in North America about his behaviour with the Arctodus Simus.

If these pleistocene lions were as sociable as the actual lions, we can think that even an giant short faced bear could not expel a lions pride from a kill. The giant short faced bear and the north american lion (in prides) being together the apex predators.

The animals life of the pleistocene age were undoubtedly high-risk...

As you suggest, there is to the best of my knowledge no conclusive evidence that either Smilodon or Atrox lived in groups as does the modern lion. But, even if they did, would they stand their ground against a bear standing roughly 6 feet high at the shoulders, eleven feet tall on his hind legs, and weighing perhaps a full ton or more, in defense of a carcass? We can only guess. But, until strong evidence appears showing a giant short-faced bear as been killed by a big cat, I will lean towards such an occurrence as being similar to a large male African lion approaching a carcass surrounded by spotted hyenas or like a Tyrannosaurus rex approaching a carcass surrounded by raptors. I believe that the big cats would very likely relinquish their kill. However, with only fossil bones to study, it is all guesswork and personal opinions.
 Grizzly  - Boss of the Woods.
        
  
             
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Switzerland Spalea Offline
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#19

@brotherbear:

As you say all depends on the level of sociability of these extinct lions: cave lions and panthera athrox.

I have read according to the rock paintings studies that, - male cave lions having very small mane, thus being not very different from the females -, this lion specie was supposed not to be as sociable as the modern african lions. In this case cave lions had to live in small groups. About them we cannot speak of pride.
If it is the same thing about panthera atrox, you're quite right, three or four big cats cannot dissuade a short faced bear to take their meal. In the opposite case (atrox having a high level of sociability), ten or so males and females should have been able to stand up to a big bear (10 X 250 kilos > big bear's weight).

But yes, I must fantasize a little bit... Did we find any short faced bear's bones with big cats' tooth or claws marks as we did as concerns cave bears and lions ?
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India brotherbear Offline
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#20

In Siberia, tigers prey upon bears but normally choose bears smaller than themselves for obvious reasons. Will a large male grizzly displace a mature male tiger from his kill? We have no evidence of this happening, but I have yet to hear of anyone setting up hidden cameras to observe a carcass in locations where both predators live. We therefore have lots of opinions. 
A tiger normally kills a bear with a bite to the base of the neck. If Panthera atrox used this same technique, then such killings could be found in the fossil record. If the experts are correct, and Smildon always killed with a bite to the throat, then such a killing would not show up in the fossel record. However, killing a bear with a bite to the throat would be no simple task. 
Also, in fossil remains, we must attempt to differentiate between mere feedings and actual killings. In Pleistocene Europe, is there evidence that cave lions killed mature male cave bears?  
 Grizzly  - Boss of the Woods.
        
  
             
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Switzerland Spalea Offline
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#21

In pleistocene Europ we found some cave bear's bones with cave lion's teeth and claws marks... And vice versa of course. I didn't speak about cave bears killed by cave lions but only furious fights between them during the winter season inside caves.

I suppose that the 2 or 3 cave lions hatching an ambush inside the cave had to combine their strength to have some hope of success against a weakened (and even asleep) opponent.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/12819243
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India brotherbear Offline
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#22

It would make sense to me that since some groups of cave lions, having developed the habit of hunting cave bears, probably due to a scarcity of their usual prey, would have also preyed upon the brown bear as well. Brown bears and cave bears are very similar. Fossil evidence of this would be rare if any due to the fact that the remains would not be so well preserved as in a cave. Brown bears rarely den in caves. Perhaps it is simply nature's way that juvenile bears and even adult bears of some species must be ever aware of big cats.
 Grizzly  - Boss of the Woods.
        
  
             
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Canada Wolverine Offline
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#23


*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author
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China Smilodon-Rex Offline
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#24

The top of the Ice Age food chain is a crowded place. Check out End of the Ice Age by @TedRechlin https://rextooth.com/store/end-of-the-ice-age 

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author
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Switzerland Spalea Offline
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#25

@Smilodon-Rex :

About #24: Very nice comic strip ! But why can I see the picture on my mobile phone, and not on my computer Mac because of the copyright ?
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India brotherbear Offline
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#26

(11-13-2018, 12:50 PM)Spalea Wrote: @Smilodon-Rex :

About #24: Very nice comic strip ! But why can I see the picture on my mobile phone, and not on my computer Mac because of the copyright ?

I can see it clearly on my Chromebook.
 Grizzly  - Boss of the Woods.
        
  
             
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Switzerland Spalea Offline
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#27

I come to discover this video on Youtube, about the cave bear. At 4mn, mention between the cave bears and cave lions interactions...




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Venezuela epaiva Offline
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#28
( This post was last modified: 11-25-2018, 01:49 AM by epaiva )

Male Amur Brown Bear and Male Siberian Tiger of Leopard Land
Credit to @amur_leoland

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
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Malaysia johnny rex Offline
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#29

(11-25-2018, 01:45 AM)epaiva Wrote: Male Amur Brown Bear and Male Siberian Tiger of Leopard Land
Credit to @amur_leoland

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

The tiger's skull is really huge in comparison to its whole body.
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China Smilodon-Rex Offline
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#30

(11-25-2018, 01:45 AM)epaiva Wrote: Male Amur Brown Bear and Male Siberian Tiger of Leopard Land
Credit to @amur_leoland

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
It's Asiatic black bear but not brown bear, let see the white stripe in that bear's chest
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