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Bear Strength

Finland Shadow Offline
Contributor
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( This post was last modified: 09-06-2019, 08:30 PM by Shadow )

(09-06-2019, 12:02 AM)johnny rex Wrote:
(09-05-2019, 08:58 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(09-05-2019, 05:45 PM)johnny rex Wrote:
(02-02-2019, 07:37 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Dog got pinned several times by a Black bear cub.






Bears can be said as natural born wrestlers. Just look at how male bears fight with each other. Those "paw swipes that break bones" stories maybe are just exaggerations, bears tend to use their forelimbs to hold and wrestle prey or competitor to the ground not swiping hard.

Look when wolves harass bears and you see swipes too. It is of course one thing to swipe and another to hit. But when swipe hits where it is meant to and behind that swipe is, let´s say 800-1000 pounds of weight, anyone can make a guess how many swipes are needed to finish for instance a wolf. It is a bit same like for instance with lions. I have seen only one documentary showing how male lion broke back of hyena with one paw swipe.

In this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgjd7Ouce3Y at aroudn 6:18, it seems the bear used their paws to deter the wolves by clawing them downward. Swipe, according to my understanding, is when someone or something swinging left and right. But bears almost never use their paw as their main "weapons". It seems bears didn't give much force behind their paws when they are trying to fend off competitors. It is more like a push to me though. In most videos, bears rely on their "wrestling" and teeth.

I was replying to it, that can bears break bones with swipe and do they use swipe. And bears do use also swipe, when they deal with problems. It is another thing if we start to talk about it, that how they fight with another bears, how do they fight usually and so on. Still fact remains, that swipe is one thing what they do and use. When there is something fast and agile which is almost impossible to catch in other way, swiping is pretty much only thing left. With wolves that can be seen, I am pretty sure, that if looking more videos there is also that. Why I am sure? Because I have discussed with people, who have seen it happen even though not always getting it on video. And I have seen it on some videos too.

Then what can it cause, that of course depends, as said, about luck too. Bear has enough strength, but it still demands also a good hit to break bones. 

Then what comes to that documentary which I mentioned, I saw it 20-25 years ago, when youtube was at best a wet dream of some computer-/programming expert :) I haven´t seen it in youtube. But it was an incident at night, a lion pride was eating on some carcass and pride male was at that time sleeping nearby. Narrator told how about 60 hyenas gathered around that pride. They started to move closer and finally that male lion got irritated enough. It stood up and approached from behind of hyenas and as far as I remember  some hyenas didn´t notice it until a split second before it was there and one was then too slow. It was one swipe and that hyena was done. Not dead, but spine was broken. That is this far only time I have seen it happen, but very impressive thing to remember. 

My point is in this, that it is one thing to talk about it, that how these predators usually do things. Then it is another thing to talk about it, that what they are capable to do, even though if it is something we see more rarely.

I made a simple google search: bear, swipe. This isn´t left to right, but I hope that right to left is also good enough Wink




 

In this at about 1:05-1:10 one quick swipe, more for clawing I think.





Here one photo from article where photographer is telling how a bear swiped the wolf even though missing. 


*This image is copyright of its original author


https://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/a/2016080922051005

In this article a nature photographer describes one confrontation between bears and wolves in which bear tries to swipe wolves more than once and one time just missed the head of the wolf. Wolves are usually able to dodge, but when not, they tend to learn to fly short distances. Some times they are done, sometimes able to flee or stunned for a moment.

This quote is in finnish, I can translate it later, you can try google translator too if you like, but it is with Finnish quite interesting :)

"Reilun kymmenen kilon lihapala pysyy visusti sen hampaiden välissä samalla kun se huitaisee etutassullaan tiedustelijaan päin.

Susitrio yrittää samaa taktiikkaa useaan kertaan. Joka kerta lopputulos on sama. Lopulta myös lauman vanhempi uros yrittää napata otsoa takamuksesta. Tällä kertaa otson oikea suora viiltää ilmaa aivan hukan pään vierestä. Edelleen karhu pitää saaliin hampaissaan."

https://yle.fi/aihe/artikkeli/2016/09/29/kimmo-ohtonen-ja-susilauman-syksy


In this case a man was gathering berries in the woods when a bear approached from back and swiped/hit this man on arm briefly. Man fell on ground but got only some wounds. Officials suspected, that it was a mother bear and that this man managed to get in between of mother and cubs. Luckily in this case bear was more or less just giving a "warning", maybe a bit unsure about the threat this man was representing. If it would have wanted to kill that man, he would have got more than just one light swipe.

https://www.ts.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/3605060/Karhu+tuli+takaa+ja+loi+marjastajan+jankaan+Sodankylassa


In this case bear made a mock charge and swiped a man once to leg, man fell and hurt his knees but no serious injuries.

https://www.is.fi/kotimaa/art-2000000796111.html


This is quote from official site in Finland, concerning bears, wolves, lynxes and wolverines. Information there is approved by biologists, zoologists, experienced hunters etc. people who spend a lot of time time in the woods and observe these animals.

"The bear kills its prey by biting it in the neck or back. It can also kill the prey animal with a strike of its forepaw, which is often enough to break the animal's spine."

http://www.largecarnivores.fi/species/brown-bear/bears-diet-and-hunting-behaviour.html
5 users Like Shadow's post
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johnny rex Offline
Wildanimal Enthusiast
***

(09-06-2019, 12:35 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(09-06-2019, 12:02 AM)johnny rex Wrote:
(09-05-2019, 08:58 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(09-05-2019, 05:45 PM)johnny rex Wrote:
(02-02-2019, 07:37 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Dog got pinned several times by a Black bear cub.






Bears can be said as natural born wrestlers. Just look at how male bears fight with each other. Those "paw swipes that break bones" stories maybe are just exaggerations, bears tend to use their forelimbs to hold and wrestle prey or competitor to the ground not swiping hard.

Look when wolves harass bears and you see swipes too. It is of course one thing to swipe and another to hit. But when swipe hits where it is meant to and behind that swipe is, let´s say 800-1000 pounds of weight, anyone can make a guess how many swipes are needed to finish for instance a wolf. It is a bit same like for instance with lions. I have seen only one documentary showing how male lion broke back of hyena with one paw swipe.

In this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgjd7Ouce3Y at aroudn 6:18, it seems the bear used their paws to deter the wolves by clawing them downward. Swipe, according to my understanding, is when someone or something swinging left and right. But bears almost never use their paw as their main "weapons". It seems bears didn't give much force behind their paws when they are trying to fend off competitors. It is more like a push to me though. In most videos, bears rely on their "wrestling" and teeth.

I was replying to it, that can bears break bones with swipe and do they use swipe. And bears do use also swipe, when they deal with problems. It is another thing if we start to talk about it, that how they fight with another bears, how do they fight usually and so on. Still fact remains, that swipe is one thing what they do and use. When there is something fast and agile which is almost impossible to catch in other way, swiping is pretty much only thing left. With wolves that can be seen, I am pretty sure, that if looking more videos there is also that. Why I am sure? Because I have discussed with people, who have seen it happen even though not always getting it on video. And I have seen it on some videos too.

Then what can it cause, that of course depends, as said, about luck too. Bear has enough strength, but it still demands also a good hit to break bones. 

Then what comes to that documentary which I mentioned, I saw it 20-25 years ago, when youtube was at best a wet dream of some computer-/programming expert :) I haven´t seen it in youtube. But it was an incident at night, a lion pride was eating on some carcass and pride male was at that time sleeping nearby. Narrator told how about 60 hyenas gathered around that pride. They started to move closer and finally that male lion got irritated enough. It stood up and approached from behind of hyenas and as far as I remember  some hyenas didn´t notice it until a split second before it was there and one was then too slow. It was one swipe and that hyena was done. Not dead, but spine was broken. That is this far only time I have seen it happen, but very impressive thing to remember. 

My point is in this, that it is one thing to talk about it, that how these predators usually do things. Then it is another thing to talk about it, that what they are capable to do, even though if it is something we see more rarely.

I made a simple google search: bear, swipe. This isn´t left to right, but I hope that right to left is also good enough Wink




 

In this at about 1:05-1:10 one quick swipe, more for clawing I think.





Here one photo from article where photographer is telling how a bear swiped the wolf even though missing. 


*This image is copyright of its original author


https://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/a/2016080922051005

In this article a nature photographer describes one confrontation between bears and wolves in which bear tries to swipe wolves more than once and one time just missed the head of the wolf. Wolves are usually able to dodge, but when not, they tend to learn to fly short distances. Some times they are done, sometimes able to flee or stunned for a moment.

This quote is in finnish, I can translate it later, you can try google translator too if you like, but it is with Finnish quite interesting :)

"Reilun kymmenen kilon lihapala pysyy visusti sen hampaiden välissä samalla kun se huitaisee etutassullaan tiedustelijaan päin.

Susitrio yrittää samaa taktiikkaa useaan kertaan. Joka kerta lopputulos on sama. Lopulta myös lauman vanhempi uros yrittää napata otsoa takamuksesta. Tällä kertaa otson oikea suora viiltää ilmaa aivan hukan pään vierestä. Edelleen karhu pitää saaliin hampaissaan."

https://yle.fi/aihe/artikkeli/2016/09/29/kimmo-ohtonen-ja-susilauman-syksy


In this case a man was gathering berries in the woods when a bear approached from back and swiped/hit this man on arm briefly. Man fell on ground but got only some wounds. Officials suspected, that it was a mother bear and that this man managed to get in between of mother and cubs. Luckily in this case bear was more or less just giving a "warning", maybe a bit unsure about the threat this man was representing. If it would have wanted to kill that man, he would have got more than just one light swipe.

https://www.ts.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/3605060/Karhu+tuli+takaa+ja+loi+marjastajan+jankaan+Sodankylassa


In this case bear made a mock charge and swiped a man once to leg, man fell and hurt his knees but no serious injuries.

https://www.is.fi/kotimaa/art-2000000796111.html


This is quote from official site in Finland, concerning bears, wolves, lynxes and wolverines. Information there is approved by biologists, zoologists, experienced hunters etc. people who spend a lot of time time in the woods and observe these animals.

"The bear kills its prey by biting it in the neck or back. It can also kill the prey animal with a strike of its forepaw, which is often enough to break the animal's spine."

http://www.largecarnivores.fi/species/brown-bear/bears-diet-and-hunting-behaviour.html

I can see big cats and bears breaking smaller animals' spine with paw swipes though, but not larger animals.
3 users Like johnny rex's post
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Finland Shadow Offline
Contributor
*****

(09-11-2019, 11:15 AM)johnny rex Wrote:
(09-06-2019, 12:35 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(09-06-2019, 12:02 AM)johnny rex Wrote:
(09-05-2019, 08:58 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(09-05-2019, 05:45 PM)johnny rex Wrote:
(02-02-2019, 07:37 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Dog got pinned several times by a Black bear cub.






Bears can be said as natural born wrestlers. Just look at how male bears fight with each other. Those "paw swipes that break bones" stories maybe are just exaggerations, bears tend to use their forelimbs to hold and wrestle prey or competitor to the ground not swiping hard.

Look when wolves harass bears and you see swipes too. It is of course one thing to swipe and another to hit. But when swipe hits where it is meant to and behind that swipe is, let´s say 800-1000 pounds of weight, anyone can make a guess how many swipes are needed to finish for instance a wolf. It is a bit same like for instance with lions. I have seen only one documentary showing how male lion broke back of hyena with one paw swipe.

In this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgjd7Ouce3Y at aroudn 6:18, it seems the bear used their paws to deter the wolves by clawing them downward. Swipe, according to my understanding, is when someone or something swinging left and right. But bears almost never use their paw as their main "weapons". It seems bears didn't give much force behind their paws when they are trying to fend off competitors. It is more like a push to me though. In most videos, bears rely on their "wrestling" and teeth.

I was replying to it, that can bears break bones with swipe and do they use swipe. And bears do use also swipe, when they deal with problems. It is another thing if we start to talk about it, that how they fight with another bears, how do they fight usually and so on. Still fact remains, that swipe is one thing what they do and use. When there is something fast and agile which is almost impossible to catch in other way, swiping is pretty much only thing left. With wolves that can be seen, I am pretty sure, that if looking more videos there is also that. Why I am sure? Because I have discussed with people, who have seen it happen even though not always getting it on video. And I have seen it on some videos too.

Then what can it cause, that of course depends, as said, about luck too. Bear has enough strength, but it still demands also a good hit to break bones. 

Then what comes to that documentary which I mentioned, I saw it 20-25 years ago, when youtube was at best a wet dream of some computer-/programming expert :) I haven´t seen it in youtube. But it was an incident at night, a lion pride was eating on some carcass and pride male was at that time sleeping nearby. Narrator told how about 60 hyenas gathered around that pride. They started to move closer and finally that male lion got irritated enough. It stood up and approached from behind of hyenas and as far as I remember  some hyenas didn´t notice it until a split second before it was there and one was then too slow. It was one swipe and that hyena was done. Not dead, but spine was broken. That is this far only time I have seen it happen, but very impressive thing to remember. 

My point is in this, that it is one thing to talk about it, that how these predators usually do things. Then it is another thing to talk about it, that what they are capable to do, even though if it is something we see more rarely.

I made a simple google search: bear, swipe. This isn´t left to right, but I hope that right to left is also good enough Wink




 

In this at about 1:05-1:10 one quick swipe, more for clawing I think.





Here one photo from article where photographer is telling how a bear swiped the wolf even though missing. 


*This image is copyright of its original author


https://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/a/2016080922051005

In this article a nature photographer describes one confrontation between bears and wolves in which bear tries to swipe wolves more than once and one time just missed the head of the wolf. Wolves are usually able to dodge, but when not, they tend to learn to fly short distances. Some times they are done, sometimes able to flee or stunned for a moment.

This quote is in finnish, I can translate it later, you can try google translator too if you like, but it is with Finnish quite interesting :)

"Reilun kymmenen kilon lihapala pysyy visusti sen hampaiden välissä samalla kun se huitaisee etutassullaan tiedustelijaan päin.

Susitrio yrittää samaa taktiikkaa useaan kertaan. Joka kerta lopputulos on sama. Lopulta myös lauman vanhempi uros yrittää napata otsoa takamuksesta. Tällä kertaa otson oikea suora viiltää ilmaa aivan hukan pään vierestä. Edelleen karhu pitää saaliin hampaissaan."

https://yle.fi/aihe/artikkeli/2016/09/29/kimmo-ohtonen-ja-susilauman-syksy


In this case a man was gathering berries in the woods when a bear approached from back and swiped/hit this man on arm briefly. Man fell on ground but got only some wounds. Officials suspected, that it was a mother bear and that this man managed to get in between of mother and cubs. Luckily in this case bear was more or less just giving a "warning", maybe a bit unsure about the threat this man was representing. If it would have wanted to kill that man, he would have got more than just one light swipe.

https://www.ts.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/3605060/Karhu+tuli+takaa+ja+loi+marjastajan+jankaan+Sodankylassa


In this case bear made a mock charge and swiped a man once to leg, man fell and hurt his knees but no serious injuries.

https://www.is.fi/kotimaa/art-2000000796111.html


This is quote from official site in Finland, concerning bears, wolves, lynxes and wolverines. Information there is approved by biologists, zoologists, experienced hunters etc. people who spend a lot of time time in the woods and observe these animals.

"The bear kills its prey by biting it in the neck or back. It can also kill the prey animal with a strike of its forepaw, which is often enough to break the animal's spine."

http://www.largecarnivores.fi/species/brown-bear/bears-diet-and-hunting-behaviour.html

I can see big cats and bears breaking smaller animals' spine with paw swipes though, but not larger animals.
Yes of course smaller animals are easier. I will ask if there is more accurate information. It is rare to get on film situations where bears kill bigger animals and naturally usually they take down bigger prey by biting, clawing and "wrestling". It´s easy to think, that a deer would collapse also if swipe is full force and accurate hit, but if talking about moose it´s a very strong animal too. Bears are known to break their necks, but it has to be by biting and/or wrenching it until it snaps. When looking at some cow carcasses killed by bears, they have nasty bites on backside of neck. 
I try to ask from people who know better. In most cases carcasses are found in the woods and cause of death has to be concluded from injuries which can be seen on carcass. Very rare to get hunting bear filmed even though some footage can be found. I don´t see it as totally impossible when talking about moose, but if there are cases, then those are very lucky bears, I can´t see it to happen unless a perfect hit to right place.
3 users Like Shadow's post
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johnny rex Offline
Wildanimal Enthusiast
***

(09-12-2019, 08:30 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(09-11-2019, 11:15 AM)johnny rex Wrote:
(09-06-2019, 12:35 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(09-06-2019, 12:02 AM)johnny rex Wrote:
(09-05-2019, 08:58 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(09-05-2019, 05:45 PM)johnny rex Wrote:
(02-02-2019, 07:37 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Dog got pinned several times by a Black bear cub.






Bears can be said as natural born wrestlers. Just look at how male bears fight with each other. Those "paw swipes that break bones" stories maybe are just exaggerations, bears tend to use their forelimbs to hold and wrestle prey or competitor to the ground not swiping hard.

Look when wolves harass bears and you see swipes too. It is of course one thing to swipe and another to hit. But when swipe hits where it is meant to and behind that swipe is, let´s say 800-1000 pounds of weight, anyone can make a guess how many swipes are needed to finish for instance a wolf. It is a bit same like for instance with lions. I have seen only one documentary showing how male lion broke back of hyena with one paw swipe.

In this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgjd7Ouce3Y at aroudn 6:18, it seems the bear used their paws to deter the wolves by clawing them downward. Swipe, according to my understanding, is when someone or something swinging left and right. But bears almost never use their paw as their main "weapons". It seems bears didn't give much force behind their paws when they are trying to fend off competitors. It is more like a push to me though. In most videos, bears rely on their "wrestling" and teeth.

I was replying to it, that can bears break bones with swipe and do they use swipe. And bears do use also swipe, when they deal with problems. It is another thing if we start to talk about it, that how they fight with another bears, how do they fight usually and so on. Still fact remains, that swipe is one thing what they do and use. When there is something fast and agile which is almost impossible to catch in other way, swiping is pretty much only thing left. With wolves that can be seen, I am pretty sure, that if looking more videos there is also that. Why I am sure? Because I have discussed with people, who have seen it happen even though not always getting it on video. And I have seen it on some videos too.

Then what can it cause, that of course depends, as said, about luck too. Bear has enough strength, but it still demands also a good hit to break bones. 

Then what comes to that documentary which I mentioned, I saw it 20-25 years ago, when youtube was at best a wet dream of some computer-/programming expert :) I haven´t seen it in youtube. But it was an incident at night, a lion pride was eating on some carcass and pride male was at that time sleeping nearby. Narrator told how about 60 hyenas gathered around that pride. They started to move closer and finally that male lion got irritated enough. It stood up and approached from behind of hyenas and as far as I remember  some hyenas didn´t notice it until a split second before it was there and one was then too slow. It was one swipe and that hyena was done. Not dead, but spine was broken. That is this far only time I have seen it happen, but very impressive thing to remember. 

My point is in this, that it is one thing to talk about it, that how these predators usually do things. Then it is another thing to talk about it, that what they are capable to do, even though if it is something we see more rarely.

I made a simple google search: bear, swipe. This isn´t left to right, but I hope that right to left is also good enough Wink




 

In this at about 1:05-1:10 one quick swipe, more for clawing I think.





Here one photo from article where photographer is telling how a bear swiped the wolf even though missing. 


*This image is copyright of its original author


https://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/a/2016080922051005

In this article a nature photographer describes one confrontation between bears and wolves in which bear tries to swipe wolves more than once and one time just missed the head of the wolf. Wolves are usually able to dodge, but when not, they tend to learn to fly short distances. Some times they are done, sometimes able to flee or stunned for a moment.

This quote is in finnish, I can translate it later, you can try google translator too if you like, but it is with Finnish quite interesting :)

"Reilun kymmenen kilon lihapala pysyy visusti sen hampaiden välissä samalla kun se huitaisee etutassullaan tiedustelijaan päin.

Susitrio yrittää samaa taktiikkaa useaan kertaan. Joka kerta lopputulos on sama. Lopulta myös lauman vanhempi uros yrittää napata otsoa takamuksesta. Tällä kertaa otson oikea suora viiltää ilmaa aivan hukan pään vierestä. Edelleen karhu pitää saaliin hampaissaan."

https://yle.fi/aihe/artikkeli/2016/09/29/kimmo-ohtonen-ja-susilauman-syksy


In this case a man was gathering berries in the woods when a bear approached from back and swiped/hit this man on arm briefly. Man fell on ground but got only some wounds. Officials suspected, that it was a mother bear and that this man managed to get in between of mother and cubs. Luckily in this case bear was more or less just giving a "warning", maybe a bit unsure about the threat this man was representing. If it would have wanted to kill that man, he would have got more than just one light swipe.

https://www.ts.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/3605060/Karhu+tuli+takaa+ja+loi+marjastajan+jankaan+Sodankylassa


In this case bear made a mock charge and swiped a man once to leg, man fell and hurt his knees but no serious injuries.

https://www.is.fi/kotimaa/art-2000000796111.html


This is quote from official site in Finland, concerning bears, wolves, lynxes and wolverines. Information there is approved by biologists, zoologists, experienced hunters etc. people who spend a lot of time time in the woods and observe these animals.

"The bear kills its prey by biting it in the neck or back. It can also kill the prey animal with a strike of its forepaw, which is often enough to break the animal's spine."

http://www.largecarnivores.fi/species/brown-bear/bears-diet-and-hunting-behaviour.html

I can see big cats and bears breaking smaller animals' spine with paw swipes though, but not larger animals.
Yes of course smaller animals are easier. I will ask if there is more accurate information. It is rare to get on film situations where bears kill bigger animals and naturally usually they take down bigger prey by biting, clawing and "wrestling". It´s easy to think, that a deer would collapse also if swipe is full force and accurate hit, but if talking about moose it´s a very strong animal too. Bears are known to break their necks, but it has to be by biting and/or wrenching it until it snaps. When looking at some cow carcasses killed by bears, they have nasty bites on backside of neck. 
I try to ask from people who know better. In most cases carcasses are found in the woods and cause of death has to be concluded from injuries which can be seen on carcass. Very rare to get hunting bear filmed even though some footage can be found. I don´t see it as totally impossible when talking about moose, but if there are cases, then those are very lucky bears, I can´t see it to happen unless a perfect hit to right place.

I remember somewhere in this forum where someone posted a picture of a brown bear attacking a moose. I think the bear is attacking the neck part of the moose. The moose is larger than the bear.
Reply

Finland Shadow Offline
Contributor
*****

(09-12-2019, 08:50 PM)johnny rex Wrote:
(09-12-2019, 08:30 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(09-11-2019, 11:15 AM)johnny rex Wrote:
(09-06-2019, 12:35 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(09-06-2019, 12:02 AM)johnny rex Wrote:
(09-05-2019, 08:58 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(09-05-2019, 05:45 PM)johnny rex Wrote:
(02-02-2019, 07:37 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Dog got pinned several times by a Black bear cub.






Bears can be said as natural born wrestlers. Just look at how male bears fight with each other. Those "paw swipes that break bones" stories maybe are just exaggerations, bears tend to use their forelimbs to hold and wrestle prey or competitor to the ground not swiping hard.

Look when wolves harass bears and you see swipes too. It is of course one thing to swipe and another to hit. But when swipe hits where it is meant to and behind that swipe is, let´s say 800-1000 pounds of weight, anyone can make a guess how many swipes are needed to finish for instance a wolf. It is a bit same like for instance with lions. I have seen only one documentary showing how male lion broke back of hyena with one paw swipe.

In this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgjd7Ouce3Y at aroudn 6:18, it seems the bear used their paws to deter the wolves by clawing them downward. Swipe, according to my understanding, is when someone or something swinging left and right. But bears almost never use their paw as their main "weapons". It seems bears didn't give much force behind their paws when they are trying to fend off competitors. It is more like a push to me though. In most videos, bears rely on their "wrestling" and teeth.

I was replying to it, that can bears break bones with swipe and do they use swipe. And bears do use also swipe, when they deal with problems. It is another thing if we start to talk about it, that how they fight with another bears, how do they fight usually and so on. Still fact remains, that swipe is one thing what they do and use. When there is something fast and agile which is almost impossible to catch in other way, swiping is pretty much only thing left. With wolves that can be seen, I am pretty sure, that if looking more videos there is also that. Why I am sure? Because I have discussed with people, who have seen it happen even though not always getting it on video. And I have seen it on some videos too.

Then what can it cause, that of course depends, as said, about luck too. Bear has enough strength, but it still demands also a good hit to break bones. 

Then what comes to that documentary which I mentioned, I saw it 20-25 years ago, when youtube was at best a wet dream of some computer-/programming expert :) I haven´t seen it in youtube. But it was an incident at night, a lion pride was eating on some carcass and pride male was at that time sleeping nearby. Narrator told how about 60 hyenas gathered around that pride. They started to move closer and finally that male lion got irritated enough. It stood up and approached from behind of hyenas and as far as I remember  some hyenas didn´t notice it until a split second before it was there and one was then too slow. It was one swipe and that hyena was done. Not dead, but spine was broken. That is this far only time I have seen it happen, but very impressive thing to remember. 

My point is in this, that it is one thing to talk about it, that how these predators usually do things. Then it is another thing to talk about it, that what they are capable to do, even though if it is something we see more rarely.

I made a simple google search: bear, swipe. This isn´t left to right, but I hope that right to left is also good enough Wink




 

In this at about 1:05-1:10 one quick swipe, more for clawing I think.





Here one photo from article where photographer is telling how a bear swiped the wolf even though missing. 


*This image is copyright of its original author


https://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/a/2016080922051005

In this article a nature photographer describes one confrontation between bears and wolves in which bear tries to swipe wolves more than once and one time just missed the head of the wolf. Wolves are usually able to dodge, but when not, they tend to learn to fly short distances. Some times they are done, sometimes able to flee or stunned for a moment.

This quote is in finnish, I can translate it later, you can try google translator too if you like, but it is with Finnish quite interesting :)

"Reilun kymmenen kilon lihapala pysyy visusti sen hampaiden välissä samalla kun se huitaisee etutassullaan tiedustelijaan päin.

Susitrio yrittää samaa taktiikkaa useaan kertaan. Joka kerta lopputulos on sama. Lopulta myös lauman vanhempi uros yrittää napata otsoa takamuksesta. Tällä kertaa otson oikea suora viiltää ilmaa aivan hukan pään vierestä. Edelleen karhu pitää saaliin hampaissaan."

https://yle.fi/aihe/artikkeli/2016/09/29/kimmo-ohtonen-ja-susilauman-syksy


In this case a man was gathering berries in the woods when a bear approached from back and swiped/hit this man on arm briefly. Man fell on ground but got only some wounds. Officials suspected, that it was a mother bear and that this man managed to get in between of mother and cubs. Luckily in this case bear was more or less just giving a "warning", maybe a bit unsure about the threat this man was representing. If it would have wanted to kill that man, he would have got more than just one light swipe.

https://www.ts.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/3605060/Karhu+tuli+takaa+ja+loi+marjastajan+jankaan+Sodankylassa


In this case bear made a mock charge and swiped a man once to leg, man fell and hurt his knees but no serious injuries.

https://www.is.fi/kotimaa/art-2000000796111.html


This is quote from official site in Finland, concerning bears, wolves, lynxes and wolverines. Information there is approved by biologists, zoologists, experienced hunters etc. people who spend a lot of time time in the woods and observe these animals.

"The bear kills its prey by biting it in the neck or back. It can also kill the prey animal with a strike of its forepaw, which is often enough to break the animal's spine."

http://www.largecarnivores.fi/species/brown-bear/bears-diet-and-hunting-behaviour.html

I can see big cats and bears breaking smaller animals' spine with paw swipes though, but not larger animals.
Yes of course smaller animals are easier. I will ask if there is more accurate information. It is rare to get on film situations where bears kill bigger animals and naturally usually they take down bigger prey by biting, clawing and "wrestling". It´s easy to think, that a deer would collapse also if swipe is full force and accurate hit, but if talking about moose it´s a very strong animal too. Bears are known to break their necks, but it has to be by biting and/or wrenching it until it snaps. When looking at some cow carcasses killed by bears, they have nasty bites on backside of neck. 
I try to ask from people who know better. In most cases carcasses are found in the woods and cause of death has to be concluded from injuries which can be seen on carcass. Very rare to get hunting bear filmed even though some footage can be found. I don´t see it as totally impossible when talking about moose, but if there are cases, then those are very lucky bears, I can´t see it to happen unless a perfect hit to right place.

I remember somewhere in this forum where someone posted a picture of a brown bear attacking a moose. I think the bear is attacking the neck part of the moose. The moose is larger than the bear.

Brown Bears from about 150 kg have been seen to kill even adult moose. Adult moose is of course a big animal, but if bear is 300-400 kg it is a different story. Also it is one thing if bear is 2 meters tall when on hind legs or if it is 2,5 meters. Shoulder height of adult moose is about 180-210 cm if I remember right.
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Australia Verdugo Offline
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Not sure if this has been posted before but anyway, these are some interesting videos that i think could show off Polar bear's strength (or just Bear's strength in general):

1. Polar bear doing push up



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRpOLz2ZTp4
At 1:30. Notice how relatively effortless it was for the massive male Bear to push himself out of the water.

2. Polar bear dragging a massive Bearded seal:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kmks8qt_WTs
The drag starts at 2:40. Notice the relative ease of the way the male Bear dragging the seal. I think it's also quite impressive that the smaller Bear (presumably a female) managed to kill a Seal of this size.


This site here also provides some details about the event

*This image is copyright of its original author

"We saw several instances of bears feeding on a seal carcass on the ice-sheet north of Svalbard, but in each case the seal was already dead when we arrived. Most dramatically, we watched a large male chase an adult female off her kill. She had killed a large Bearded Seal (photos top & bottom) that was larger and heavier than she was. The male bear chased her off and then chose to pick up the carcass — which appeared to weigh more than he did — and carry it some distance on the ice to be devoured at a spot that he preferred. Truly an impressive show of immense strength!"

3. Polar bear killing a Narwhal



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drfQNNbRiWU
At the end of the video, the Bear still had not been able to drag the Whale on to the rocks so we don't know if it ever succeeded dragging the Whale of water. That being said, the fact the Bear could kill something that large underwater is still quite impressive imo. The bear almost succeeded in dragging the Whale out of water on a rather high-inclined, algae-covered rock at 5:06 which for me, is impressive. The bear would most likely have succeed doing so if the surface was flatter and less bumping.
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United States Polar Offline
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(09-05-2019, 05:45 PM)johnny rex Wrote:
(02-02-2019, 07:37 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Dog got pinned several times by a Black bear cub.






Bears can be said as natural born wrestlers. Just look at how male bears fight with each other. Those "paw swipes that break bones" stories maybe are just exaggerations, bears tend to use their forelimbs to hold and wrestle prey or competitor to the ground not swiping hard.

Those might not really be exaggerations. Depending on where they hit, a bear's super-dense paw may actually break the shoulder, chest, or pelvic area of a weaker big cat since they have greater radial robusticity and bone density than the feline. Radial robusticity (think of a wide-framed man throwing a hook) increases impact from the side with greater hip rotation.
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Australia GreenGrolar Offline
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(09-05-2019, 05:45 PM)johnny rex Wrote:
(02-02-2019, 07:37 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Dog got pinned several times by a Black bear cub.






Bears can be said as natural born wrestlers. Just look at how male bears fight with each other. Those "paw swipes that break bones" stories maybe are just exaggerations, bears tend to use their forelimbs to hold and wrestle prey or competitor to the ground not swiping hard.

I have already seen this video. Bears possess grappling skills even as a cub. Sorry if I have post this before: Bears are the only extant land carnivores where all species (from the small sun bear to the giant kodiak and polar bear) can kill a human.
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India Ashutosh Offline
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( This post was last modified: 10-30-2019, 01:43 PM by Ashutosh )

(10-30-2019, 11:00 AM) GreenGrolar Wrote:Bears are the only extant land carnivores where all species (from the small sun bear to the giant kodiak and polar bear) can kill a human.
That is a terrible statement on anything! Humans might as well be defenceless meat bags with very little survival skills left. Killing humans shouldn’t be a barometer for medium to large sized animals anyway. Tigers, Lions, Jaguars, Leopards, Hyenas, Wolves and all their subspecies could kill a human. As I said, it’s not much of an achievement. Hippos kill more than 500 humans every year and they are primarily herbivores!
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(10-30-2019, 11:00 AM)GreenGrolar Wrote:
(09-05-2019, 05:45 PM)johnny rex Wrote:
(02-02-2019, 07:37 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Dog got pinned several times by a Black bear cub.






Bears can be said as natural born wrestlers. Just look at how male bears fight with each other. Those "paw swipes that break bones" stories maybe are just exaggerations, bears tend to use their forelimbs to hold and wrestle prey or competitor to the ground not swiping hard.

I have already seen this video. Bears possess grappling skills even as a cub. Sorry if I have post this before: Bears are the only extant land carnivores where all species (from the small sun bear to the giant kodiak and polar bear) can kill a human.

You exaggerated the last statement.
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johnny rex Offline
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(10-06-2019, 10:41 AM)Polar Wrote:
(09-05-2019, 05:45 PM)johnny rex Wrote:
(02-02-2019, 07:37 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Dog got pinned several times by a Black bear cub.






Bears can be said as natural born wrestlers. Just look at how male bears fight with each other. Those "paw swipes that break bones" stories maybe are just exaggerations, bears tend to use their forelimbs to hold and wrestle prey or competitor to the ground not swiping hard.

Those might not really be exaggerations. Depending on where they hit, a bear's super-dense paw may actually break the shoulder, chest, or pelvic area of a weaker big cat since they have greater radial robusticity and bone density than the feline. Radial robusticity (think of a wide-framed man throwing a hook) increases impact from the side with greater hip rotation.

If you mean "a weaker big cat" like a sick lion or tiger, smaller big cats such as a jaguar, a leopard, etc. yes maybe. Is there any book or source that said bears have greater bone density?
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Finland Shadow Offline
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( This post was last modified: 10-30-2019, 10:15 PM by Shadow )

(10-30-2019, 02:48 PM)johnny rex Wrote:
(10-06-2019, 10:41 AM)Polar Wrote:
(09-05-2019, 05:45 PM)johnny rex Wrote:
(02-02-2019, 07:37 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Dog got pinned several times by a Black bear cub.






Bears can be said as natural born wrestlers. Just look at how male bears fight with each other. Those "paw swipes that break bones" stories maybe are just exaggerations, bears tend to use their forelimbs to hold and wrestle prey or competitor to the ground not swiping hard.

Those might not really be exaggerations. Depending on where they hit, a bear's super-dense paw may actually break the shoulder, chest, or pelvic area of a weaker big cat since they have greater radial robusticity and bone density than the feline. Radial robusticity (think of a wide-framed man throwing a hook) increases impact from the side with greater hip rotation.

If you mean "a weaker big cat" like a sick lion or tiger, smaller big cats such as a jaguar, a leopard, etc. yes maybe. Is there any book or source that said bears have greater bone density?

These are complicated discussions. If we have a 400 kg bear and a 200 kg tiger or lion, it´s only logical conclusion, that the bear is significantly stronger. When we look at a 200 kg bear and a 200 kg tiger or lion, situation is totally different. And I doubt, that anyone here can really prove, is in such case a bear or a big cat stronger. Not with current available information. There are no reliable and comparable tests ever done to these animals. So all opinions are based more or less in speculation and controversial information. I would avoid to say "weaker big cat" unless able to back up such claim with clear size difference. Saying something as it would be self-evident, while it isn´t, tends to just provoke unnecessary and endless debates.

More interesting is to see information and/or incidents, which prove some level of strength. It´s very difficult to find out, what kind of performance is on upper limit of some animal, when it really puts "all in". Some incidents give hints. Naturally a big bear can be considered as the strongest terrestrial predator, size difference to any "competitor" is simply overwhelming. But reality is also, that not all the bears are huge, brown bear is a good example from very small subspecies/populations to "monsters" living in Kodiak Islands, Alaskan peninsula and Kamchatka peninsula. Those biggest of the big are in their own league, no contest there. How strong they are really? A good question, I hope that some day more information about it.
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Australia GreenGrolar Offline
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( This post was last modified: 10-31-2019, 06:33 AM by GreenGrolar )

(10-30-2019, 02:43 PM)johnny rex Wrote:
(10-30-2019, 11:00 AM)GreenGrolar Wrote:
(09-05-2019, 05:45 PM)johnny rex Wrote:
(02-02-2019, 07:37 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Dog got pinned several times by a Black bear cub.






Bears can be said as natural born wrestlers. Just look at how male bears fight with each other. Those "paw swipes that break bones" stories maybe are just exaggerations, bears tend to use their forelimbs to hold and wrestle prey or competitor to the ground not swiping hard.

I have already seen this video. Bears possess grappling skills even as a cub. Sorry if I have post this before: Bears are the only extant land carnivores where all species (from the small sun bear to the giant kodiak and polar bear) can kill a human.

You exaggerated the last statement.

Please explain how. Sun bear killing humans:

Code:
A sun bear mauled a couple in a rare attack in Indonesia, killing the wife and seriously injuring the husband, officials said Wednesday.
https://www.daily-sun.com/post/259271/Sun-bear-mauls-couple-kills-wife-in-Indonesia


Code:
They have no problem breaking open nuts with their strong jaws or tearing open termite mounds with their long claws.

http://www.bearsoftheworld.net/sun_bears.asp

Any animal that can rip open termite mounds with their jaws and claws can surely kill a human.
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Finland Shadow Offline
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( This post was last modified: 11-07-2019, 10:59 AM by Shadow )

(10-31-2019, 06:27 AM)GreenGrolar Wrote:
(10-30-2019, 02:43 PM)johnny rex Wrote:
(10-30-2019, 11:00 AM)GreenGrolar Wrote:
(09-05-2019, 05:45 PM)johnny rex Wrote:
(02-02-2019, 07:37 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Dog got pinned several times by a Black bear cub.






Bears can be said as natural born wrestlers. Just look at how male bears fight with each other. Those "paw swipes that break bones" stories maybe are just exaggerations, bears tend to use their forelimbs to hold and wrestle prey or competitor to the ground not swiping hard.

I have already seen this video. Bears possess grappling skills even as a cub. Sorry if I have post this before: Bears are the only extant land carnivores where all species (from the small sun bear to the giant kodiak and polar bear) can kill a human.

You exaggerated the last statement.

Please explain how. Sun bear killing humans:

Code:
A sun bear mauled a couple in a rare attack in Indonesia, killing the wife and seriously injuring the husband, officials said Wednesday.
https://www.daily-sun.com/post/259271/Sun-bear-mauls-couple-kills-wife-in-Indonesia


Code:
They have no problem breaking open nuts with their strong jaws or tearing open termite mounds with their long claws.

http://www.bearsoftheworld.net/sun_bears.asp

Any animal that can rip open termite mounds with their jaws and claws can surely kill a human.

They mean, that when you say, that the bear is the only land carnivore, which have all subspecies capable to kill a human, you aren´t talking as it is. All tiger subspecies can kill a human, all lion subspecies can kill a human etc. Your statement was simply false, not true and exaggeration in that way.

There is no point to continue about self-evident matter more than now has been written. Otherwise it starts to be only spamming, so time to stop about that now. Totally pointless. When talking about bear strength, reasoning should be reasonable.
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johnny rex Offline
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(10-31-2019, 06:27 AM)GreenGrolar Wrote:
(10-30-2019, 02:43 PM)johnny rex Wrote:
(10-30-2019, 11:00 AM)GreenGrolar Wrote:
(09-05-2019, 05:45 PM)johnny rex Wrote:
(02-02-2019, 07:37 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Dog got pinned several times by a Black bear cub.






Bears can be said as natural born wrestlers. Just look at how male bears fight with each other. Those "paw swipes that break bones" stories maybe are just exaggerations, bears tend to use their forelimbs to hold and wrestle prey or competitor to the ground not swiping hard.

I have already seen this video. Bears possess grappling skills even as a cub. Sorry if I have post this before: Bears are the only extant land carnivores where all species (from the small sun bear to the giant kodiak and polar bear) can kill a human.

You exaggerated the last statement.

Please explain how. Sun bear killing humans:

Code:
A sun bear mauled a couple in a rare attack in Indonesia, killing the wife and seriously injuring the husband, officials said Wednesday.
https://www.daily-sun.com/post/259271/Sun-bear-mauls-couple-kills-wife-in-Indonesia


Code:
They have no problem breaking open nuts with their strong jaws or tearing open termite mounds with their long claws.

http://www.bearsoftheworld.net/sun_bears.asp

Any animal that can rip open termite mounds with their jaws and claws can surely kill a human.

Your statement "Bears are the only extant land carnivores where all species (from the small sun bear to the giant kodiak and polar bear) can kill a human" is an exaggeration. Almost all specimens of lions, tigers, leopards, wolves, etc. can also kill a human.
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