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 (01-21-2016, 05:43 AM)Polar Wrote: Another point to make is that bears continually get stronger and stronger even past their prime, and in fact, they are one of the only animals to do so. (Hence, mature bears' larger sizes than young bears.) Cats get weaker past their prime years, and start to achieve less muscle force, but NOWHERE near the rate as in even the hardest-working of humans, whom collctively lose 50% of muscle weight at 80, regardless of activities. @Polar, that's a new one for a mammal. I've read similar about hippos. Could you please direct me to a source? 
I do not believe in Louis Roth, or most trainers, for that matter. Lions don't display visual nervousness more than tigers do, or vice versa. When I was younger, (at the Cincinnati Zoo, respectively) I noticed a tiger giving the same signals as Louis Roth described the lion to give: a shaky tail, unleashed fangs, deep grunts, deep roars. Turns out one of the visitors had tried to trick the tiger into following his hand (which had a shiny keychain, by the way), and the tiger became visibly nervous towards the visitor because he couldn't catch the shiny object.
Almost all carnivores tend to show their discomfort almost instantly when bothered, but to what extent, that depends on the species. Beatty, Roth, and other animal trainers are not to be taken so seriously with their opinions, since they really don't know about the wild states of these animals. Polar bears are aggressive towards humans because humans normally go about these animals in particular so aggressively by constantly mistreating them (always sick, physically immature, and weak at lower weights. Overheated and exhausted at higher weights in hot-climate captive areas.) These bears specifically face constant hardships 24/7, and due to humans giving them these hardships, they see humans as a constant threat, and that's what makes them aggressive towards us. In the wild, they aren't necessarily aggressive with hatred towards humans, they simplay consider us prey (hunger, not hatred.) They normally don't attack any human/animal unless hungry, or in the case of captivity, anger. (01-21-2016, 05:51 AM)tigerluver Wrote:(01-21-2016, 05:43 AM)Polar Wrote: Another point to make is that bears continually get stronger and stronger even past their prime, and in fact, they are one of the only animals to do so. (Hence, mature bears' larger sizes than young bears.) Cats get weaker past their prime years, and start to achieve less muscle force, but NOWHERE near the rate as in even the hardest-working of humans, whom collctively lose 50% of muscle weight at 80, regardless of activities. You mean a source that shows greater muscular strength in old/elderly bears than younger bears (I have that source already), or a source for the other points I made? 
http://shaggygod.proboards.com/thread/67...ar-anatomy
Thus, for male bears, skeletal growth appeared to be completed rapidly while weight tended to increase throughout the normal life span. Above: Alpha boar who is aging and beginning to lose muscle mass, so that his pelvis and shoulder blades are prominent.
I have a lot of trouble copying and pasting on this site for some unknown reason. But, the point I am attempting to make on post #87 is that while it is true that grizzlies continue to grow bigger not only in fat but also in bone and muscle well past their prime, there is a limit. A very old grizzly perhaps 20 or older will show signs of age and fatigue. The site posted shows that such an elderly grizzly might be spotted by his concave rather than convex shoulder hump.
@Polar, I was referring to the growth trends of the bear, though @
Reaching a limit makes much more sense. Although, wouldn't one's prime be just before the degradation of the body, thus it would be more proper to say bears have long primes rather than they continue to put on size past their prime. Bone widths, which are the foundation of mass and strength, do grow well into adulthood in lots of species. 
@Polar
I'm going to refute a few points you made and tell why "Almost all carnivores tend to show their discomfort almost instantly when bothered, but to what extent, that depends on the species. Beatty, Roth, and other animal trainers are not to be taken so seriously with their opinions, since they really don't know about the wild states of these animals." First issue is the fact that Louis Roth received many of his animals straight from the wild, Tigers From "bengal" polar bears straight from the wild, Lions from Africa Hans Brick Sailed on a whaling vessel, Trapped Lions in Africa, Hunted tigers in India etc. Many other big cat trainers all have many years outside of home where they would travel to foreign lands to capture these animals or participate in hunts in the wild. This was a right of passage for tons of trainers, especially Europeans. Also, the fact that these people have dealt with these animals their entire lives puts more stock in their opinions than the novice, that is for sure. "Overheated and exhausted at higher weights in hot-climate captive areas." Actually, Polar bears do quite well in high temps, obviously not desert conditions but high temps don't bother them, Hans Brick Specifically states how amazed he was that the bears seemed to prefer warm water as to cold and never seemed to overheat when temps got high. "Bears and cats in captivity, even given the fattest foods ever with minimal excercise, would still be (not sure about looks, though, for bears) quite muscular for their weight, yet just a tad fatter than if they were in the wild. The reason why they can still be extremely muscular even if given minimal exercise is because the genes are already set for them over millions of years as carnivores to actively hunt food." This is subjective, the usage of "tad" can be very different, we all have seen extremely obese captive bears and cats which you would never see the likes of in the wild. In regards to "genes," this again is only one factor, genetics are a small part of whats needed to maintain a healthy condition. You need proper diet, exercise and mental health. An animal with the best genetics in the world who lays around and never gets to truly work its organs and muscles out will never be what their wild counter part is. They will carry more fat and have less muscle mass, less stamina etc. The first thing the body burns is fat, naturally a bear or cat in the wild will burn fat much faster all the while building muscle mass and increasing stamina to oxygenate those muscles. A captive bear or cat will have higher body fat since their DEI will be relatively low and in turn their muscle mass will be low since they never are able to use them to their full capacity on a daily basis all the while increasing their fat since they aren't burning it in the way a wild animal would.
I will refute this statement: This is subjective, the usage of "tad" can be very different, we all have seen extremely obese captive bears and cats which you would never see the likes of in the wild.
Actually, I have seen no brown bears in captivity any heavier nor in fact as heavy as a brown bear in the wild ready for a long winter's sleep. I have yet to see an overweight polar bear in captivity. Big cats are a different story altogether.
Not a brown bear but
 *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author You can of course compare them to dumpster diving bears but essential they are the same. A dumpster diving bear no longer has to live by "survival of the fittest' But here is a perfect example of an "obese" polar bear in captivity  *This image is copyright of its original author But of course its harder to see in bears in general since they need to pack on fat and have shaggy fur coats but that being said it isn't the obesity that is the only thing, its the lack of muscle, the loose belly fat and the all around weaker physical being. Jimbo compared to van is a perfect example, same Bart, both are big bears but not as dense, muscle packed or physically fit as Van. I'm just going to try to show a few more example of wild specimens and if you can tell me that you think they are built this way in captivity that is fine, but I have never seen a single bear in captivity come close to these wild examples....  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author
A cool shot with a hummer for scale
 *This image is copyright of its original author 1995 Humvee were said to be 77inches tall to give you an idea of the bears total height, the bear is on its toes though so maybe subtract a few inches. a few others  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author
Pckts says: But of course its harder to see in bears in general since they need to pack on fat and have shaggy fur coats but that being said it isn't the obesity that is the only thing, its the lack of muscle, the loose belly fat and the all around weaker physical being.
Jimbo compared to van is a perfect example, same Bart, both are big bears but not as dense, muscle packed or physically fit as Van. I'm just going to try to show a few more example of wild specimens and if you can tell me that you think they are built this way in captivity that is fine, but I have never seen a single bear in captivity come close to these wild examples.... *Ok, the bears you pictured from what-ever part of the world were definitely overfed to the point of severe animal abuse. They are obese. Bears fed with any semblance of responsibility are seldom obese. Bart, Bart Jr., and Brutus are not by any stretch obese. Jimbo is perhaps borderline obese probably due to his leg injury. But my point is, the skeletal structure of bears is designed to handle their late autumn weight. For a big cat, which is a full-time stealth hunter, he cannot afford to be fat and therefore his body has not evolved in such a manner as to accept extra poundage.
Here walks a grizzly in late autumn. He is not obese but just ready for bed.
 *This image is copyright of its original author
I agree, and I have seen some bears packing on weight for the winter who look very "obese" but even the one shown above could very well be a dumpster diving bear, but bears in general are harder to tell.
But the wild ones still look to be the much more muscular bear or dense, which is the point I've been getting at.
Here's the study on bear strength over age. it has specimens from all spectrums: from young juveniles to post-prime bears. Older, post-prime bears show much more refined strength from slow-twitch fiber capacity rather than instantaneous power from fast-twitch fiber capacity (which is synonymous with prime-aged, near-prime aged bears.) And the max force displayed from the old bear's strength is greater than the max force instantaneously displayed from the prime bear.
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Here is a portion of that site information: quote - Muscle mass is similar between the prime bear and the sixyear subadult bear, with average muscle mass percentage levels differing at a rate of 1.38±0.24%. The muscle mass of the three year old bear was relatively low due to its low total weight, and the muscle mass of the oldest specimen concurred with the relatively high amounts of Ib fibres: the densest muscle fibres discovered in mammalian and reptilian bodies so far. Thus, the expected muscle weight of the postprime aged bear should exceed that of the prime bear, even though the muscle volume is slightly higher in the prime aged bear. The maximum percentage of Ib fibres in the postprime bear slightly, by 0.9%, exceeds the maximum percentage of IIa/x and IIb fibres in the prime bear, thus producing this result. Muscle density is farexceeding within the oldest specimen also due to the overaccumulation of dense Ib fibers. In conclusion, no significant evidence provided any leads towards increased muscle strength deterioration or muscle mass deterioration in postprime brown bears, yet evidence had been found of increased muscle volume deterioration in postprime brown bears as. The brown bears who were experimented on were shortly released back into their respective locations within Yellowstone National Park after the study commenced. These findings suggest that brown bears, if not all bear species as a whole, are able to retain their muscle mass and maximum muscle strength well past their prime years, unlike most other animals.
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