Avoca Male Lions and Their Male Lineage

[BA0701]

(08-30-2023, 01:08 AM)Tylermartin! Wrote:

(08-30-2023, 01:04 AM)afortich Wrote:

(08-30-2023, 12:55 AM)BA0701 Wrote:

(08-29-2023, 10:58 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:

(08-29-2023, 09:56 PM)KM600 Wrote: Guess it’s better to be safe than sorry but his sons look big enough to compete now.

Big, but not old enough.

For example, 2 Talamatis stil run away from territorial males, and they are ~1 year older on average.

Kambulas aswell, youngest of Kambulas is around the same age as oldest of NKs.

NKs still need quite some time to mature and gain confidence.

I truly believe, the moment Mohawk sees any one of those sons stop and take a stand, akin to what we saw with Mo when the Mejanes killed his last brother, he will turn right around and join him. Right now, he knows if he were to take such a stand his sons would not turn around, just like Mo's brother, likely, as you stated, due to their young age.

I agree with you my friend @BA0701, something similar to what happened with his bro DM

Mohawk with his two biggest sons just got chased by the nwaswitshaka males

According to what was said in the OP by @1999gc8 , it was Mohawk and all four sons who were chased off. Reply

[Tylermartin!]

(08-30-2023, 01:14 AM)BA0701 Wrote:

(08-30-2023, 01:08 AM)Tylermartin! Wrote:

(08-30-2023, 01:04 AM)afortich Wrote:

(08-30-2023, 12:55 AM)BA0701 Wrote:

(08-29-2023, 10:58 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:

(08-29-2023, 09:56 PM)KM600 Wrote: Guess it’s better to be safe than sorry but his sons look big enough to compete now.

Big, but not old enough.

For example, 2 Talamatis stil run away from territorial males, and they are ~1 year older on average.

Kambulas aswell, youngest of Kambulas is around the same age as oldest of NKs.

NKs still need quite some time to mature and gain confidence.

I truly believe, the moment Mohawk sees any one of those sons stop and take a stand, akin to what we saw with Mo when the Mejanes killed his last brother, he will turn right around and join him. Right now, he knows if he were to take such a stand his sons would not turn around, just like Mo's brother, likely, as you stated, due to their young age.

I agree with you my friend @BA0701, something similar to what happened with his bro DM

Mohawk with his two biggest sons just got chased by the nwaswitshaka males

According to what was said in the OP by @1999gc8 , it was Mohawk and all four sons who were chased off.

Even worse Reply

[BA0701]

(08-30-2023, 01:17 AM)Tylermartin! Wrote:

(08-30-2023, 01:14 AM)BA0701 Wrote:

(08-30-2023, 01:08 AM)Tylermartin! Wrote:

(08-30-2023, 01:04 AM)afortich Wrote:

(08-30-2023, 12:55 AM)BA0701 Wrote:

(08-29-2023, 10:58 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:

(08-29-2023, 09:56 PM)KM600 Wrote: Guess it’s better to be safe than sorry but his sons look big enough to compete now.

Big, but not old enough.

For example, 2 Talamatis stil run away from territorial males, and they are ~1 year older on average.

Kambulas aswell, youngest of Kambulas is around the same age as oldest of NKs.

NKs still need quite some time to mature and gain confidence.

I truly believe, the moment Mohawk sees any one of those sons stop and take a stand, akin to what we saw with Mo when the Mejanes killed his last brother, he will turn right around and join him. Right now, he knows if he were to take such a stand his sons would not turn around, just like Mo's brother, likely, as you stated, due to their young age.

I agree with you my friend @BA0701, something similar to what happened with his bro DM

Mohawk with his two biggest sons just got chased by the nwaswitshaka males

According to what was said in the OP by @1999gc8 , it was Mohawk and all four sons who were chased off.

Even worse

Those boys just need to get some confidence, and I believe having Mohawk with them can only expedite that process. It can happen, I don't recall right off if it was the Talamatis or the Kambulas but one of those two groups chased a known prime male from a kill, a year to year and a half ago, and I want to say they were around the same age as Mohawk's sons are today. These boys will find their confidence sooner or later, heck even the Birmingham boys, with the White Male, just recently surprised us all with their aggression at this early stage, and they are quite a bit older. Reply

[KM600]

(08-30-2023, 12:55 AM)BA0701 Wrote:

(08-29-2023, 10:58 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:

(08-29-2023, 09:56 PM)KM600 Wrote: Guess it’s better to be safe than sorry but his sons look big enough to compete now.

Big, but not old enough.

For example, 2 Talamatis stil run away from territorial males, and they are ~1 year older on average.

Kambulas aswell, youngest of Kambulas is around the same age as oldest of NKs.

NKs still need quite some time to mature and gain confidence.

I truly believe, the moment Mohawk sees any one of those sons stop and take a stand, akin to what we saw with Mo when the Mejanes killed his last brother, he will turn right around and join him. Right now, he knows if he were to take such a stand his sons would not turn around, just like Mo's brother, likely, as you stated, due to their young age.

Hoping the altercation was recorded and will be released soon, for all we know Mohawk retreated instantly after learning of the presence from the NSW males. Would be interesting to see if Mohawk tried to share the kill, unrelated males have been known to share kills if there’s an abundance of food and don’t care much for fighting. I think his sons are still fairly young, but they’re blessed with a numbers advantage as well as a father who seemingly looks out for them. The Talamati males helped DM against the Imbali male last year and were around the same age the Nkuhuma males seem to be. The young Black Rock Boys in MM, only being 4 years of age, put a beating on 2 of the Salas males and then chased Jesse the Nomad, who was an absolute beast. Lion dynamics are constantly changing, look at the Southern Avocas, just some time ago they were believed to be the strongest coalition in SS and now one is injured and the other nowhere to be seen - the quicker these boys decide they want to help Mohawk the better, not only for themselves but for the Nkuhuma pride aswell, they can only stay on the run for so long before the BDMs catch them and takeover. Reply

[BA0701]

(08-30-2023, 01:38 AM)KM600 Wrote:

(08-30-2023, 12:55 AM)BA0701 Wrote:

(08-29-2023, 10:58 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:

(08-29-2023, 09:56 PM)KM600 Wrote: Guess it’s better to be safe than sorry but his sons look big enough to compete now.

Big, but not old enough.

For example, 2 Talamatis stil run away from territorial males, and they are ~1 year older on average.

Kambulas aswell, youngest of Kambulas is around the same age as oldest of NKs.

NKs still need quite some time to mature and gain confidence.

I truly believe, the moment Mohawk sees any one of those sons stop and take a stand, akin to what we saw with Mo when the Mejanes killed his last brother, he will turn right around and join him. Right now, he knows if he were to take such a stand his sons would not turn around, just like Mo's brother, likely, as you stated, due to their young age.

Hoping the altercation was recorded and will be released soon, for all we know Mohawk retreated instantly after learning of the presence from the NSW males. Would be interesting to see if Mohawk tried to share the kill, unrelated males have been known to share kills if there’s an abundance of food and don’t care much for fighting. I think his sons are still fairly young, but they’re blessed with a numbers advantage as well as a father who seemingly looks out for them. The Talamati males helped DM against the Imbali male last year and were around the same age the Nkuhuma males seem to be. The young Black Rock Boys in MM, only being 4 years of age, put a beating on 2 of the Salas males and then chased Jesse the Nomad, who was an absolute beast. Lion dynamics are constantly changing, look at the Southern Avocas, just some time ago they were believed to be the strongest coalition in SS and now one is injured and the other nowhere to be seen - the quicker these boys decide they want to help Mohawk the better, not only for themselves but for the Nkuhuma pride aswell, they can only stay on the run for so long before the BDMs catch them and takeover.

I agree fully, the sooner these boys begin to man up, the better off for all of them. I just don't want to give up on them based on one encounter (not saying anyone is doing that, just referencing my own thought process), I believe they will be fine. They come from fine stock, those Avoca genes should count for something, and I literally cannot think of a more suitable teacher on what it is to be a male lion, than their father. 

I remember the Talamatis and DM incident, we were actually just discussing that recently as they had originally said S8 had a broken jaw and was in really bad shape only to see him a few hours later looking untouched, but the one I was referring to was a group of young males who were nomadic, I want to say it was the Kambulas, as I seem to remember a sister being present as well, and that they chased off Wide Nose, but I could be completely off as it happened some time ago. Reply

[KM600]

Completely unrelated to this thread, but does anyone know of a thread for Botswana lions. I come across one but it seems pretty inactive, was looking for more info on the fight between the Renegade coalition, sons on Sekekama and TornNose against the Mababe males and just in general want to stay updated. Reply

[Duco Ndona]

I think we need to remember that these are still young lions. They need to be beaten around a bit so they settle further away from their natal pride and turn their cubish playfighting and youthfull naivity into actual experience and confidence. They are tought by their mother and aunts to run from any rival males coming close. So that is what they are going to do for a while until it clicks they are the rival males now. Size and numbers arent much a factor until that happens.

And Mohawks presence isnt going to change much in that aspect. He is just tagging along for his own survival, not some kind of sensei teaching his sons how to lion. Reply

[Ngonya]

(08-30-2023, 02:25 AM)KM600 Wrote: Completely unrelated to this thread, but does anyone know of a thread for Botswana lions. I come across one but it seems pretty inactive, was looking for more info on the fight between the Renegade coalition, sons on Sekekama and TornNose against the Mababe males and just in general want to stay updated.

botswana lions Reply

[BA0701]

(08-30-2023, 03:06 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: I think we need to remember that these are still young lions. They need to be beaten around a bit so they settle further away from their natal pride and turn their cubish playfighting and youthfull naivity into actual experience and confidence. They are tought by their mother and aunts to run from any rival males coming close. So that is what they are going to do for a while until it clicks they are the rival males now. Size and numbers arent much a factor until that happens.

And Mohawks presence isnt going to change much in that aspect. He is just tagging along for his own survival, not some kind of sensei teaching his sons how to lion.

I didn't see anyone claiming that Mohawk was some sort of sensei, but I did say they are learning a tremendous amount from him. Can they only learn things like hunting from females, do you not think they will learn a lot from being with him during this period of their lives, a period in which the majority of male lions are on their own to learn from their own mistakes, mistakes that can at times be deadly? Reply

[KM600]

For future references, should we speak about the Talamati males in here, being sons of the Avocas or in the Talamati pride thread despite them seemingly being nomads. Reply

[BA0701]

(08-30-2023, 06:58 AM)KM600 Wrote: For future references, should we speak about the Talamati males in here, being sons of the Avocas or in the Talamati pride thread despite them seemingly being nomads.

For now, we'll keep them in the Talamati thread, as we are the Kambulas, Birmingham and Breakaway males (who are placed in the Lineage thread), who are all in a very similar situation, too. We typically give threads to coalitions once they have become territorial, hopefully control a pride, and provided we get semi-regular updates on them, as we want to try and minimize the number of dead threads. All we ask, before any new thread are created, is that everyone check with a member of the Mod team first. Reply

[afortich]

(08-30-2023, 04:58 AM)BA0701 Wrote:

(08-30-2023, 03:06 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: I think we need to remember that these are still young lions. They need to be beaten around a bit so they settle further away from their natal pride and turn their cubish playfighting and youthfull naivity into actual experience and confidence. They are tought by their mother and aunts to run from any rival males coming close. So that is what they are going to do for a while until it clicks they are the rival males now. Size and numbers arent much a factor until that happens.

And Mohawks presence isnt going to change much in that aspect. He is just tagging along for his own survival, not some kind of sensei teaching his sons how to lion.

I didn't see anyone claiming that Mohawk was some sort of sensei, but I did say they are learning a tremendous amount from him. Can they only learn things like hunting from females, do you not think they will learn a lot from being with him during this period of their lives, a period in which the majority of male lions are on their own to learn from their own mistakes, mistakes that can at times be deadly?

I agree with you bro @BA0701 in that is very likely that Mohawk may be teaching his sons in different ways, and who knows perhaps also hoping to form a coalition in the future. Reply

[Mapokser]

(08-29-2023, 09:19 AM)KM600 Wrote:

(08-29-2023, 08:48 AM)Mapokser Wrote:

(08-29-2023, 05:00 AM)KM600 Wrote:

(08-29-2023, 04:17 AM)Mapokser Wrote: The Avoca male is in perfect condition, but as a nomad, and apparently alone, for how long? He is not that old but isn't young either. Even if he were to join up with another male, I doubt he'll ever be dominant again. He did try with his brother and it didn't work out. 

His only chance at becoming dominant again would be if he joined a big coalition.

Would depend on where he tried to rule, you have to remember the Southern Avocas are the most battle tested coalition in Sabi Sands. Majority of coalitions in SS only consist of two members, so as long as he found a good partner, I really wouldn’t bet against him becoming a dominant, pride male yet again. Also you’re on about the Northern Avoca male, Mohawk, the lion we’re talking about is his brother from a different coalition who resides in the Southern part of Sabi Sands.

I said nothing about Mohawk, I was talking about his southern brother.

S.Avocas the most battle tested coalition in SS? Maybe, but regardless, I always considered them one of the strongest duos. But the remaining male is apparently alone now, and even if he finds a partner quickly, it'll take time for them to bond, adapt and find a territory to potentially try to take over, until this happens, Avoca will have turned 11 already and it's doubtful if they'd be a strong coalition.

Keep in mind that S.Avocas, when they were still 2, soon after going nomadic, were seen mating with the Hamilton females and marking the territory ( which was something the 2 Leeubrons were also doing a month earlier ) and now apparently Leeubrons have established themselves there while Avocas are still nomadic and probably down to 1. So chances are the older Leeubrons outcompeted the younger S. Avocas ( even if they aren't responsible for whatever happened to the bigger Avoca ).

If the other Avoca would show up and join his brother and they'd still show a drive to be dominant, then they'd have decent chances, but if the remaining male is indeed alone, his only chance would be joining a big coalition.

Misinterpreted the comment after u said he tried being dominant with his brother but it didn’t work out, believing u were on about DM and Mohawks last reunion before tragedy struck. Even while the Southern Avocas went after the Hamilton pride, they were still dominant males over the Sand River Pride albeit they weren’t there to protect them from the Nkhulu males. That’s only changed since the lone Avoca male was spotted in Mala Mala by himself and without his pride. Even now, I’d argue he could still be considered a pride male at worst until there’s proof he’s been ousted from his pride. I think there was a lot of talk in regards to the Southern Avocas ‘abondoning’ the Sand River Pride but these brothers spend a lot of time in KNP, big reason we lack info on them as opposed to every other coalition in Sabi Sands. I think if it wasn’t for the Nkhulu males presence, ppl wouldn’t think anything of it. Ppl also believed DM abandoned the Talamati pride when he was facing pressure from S8, when I believe in reality, he was struggling too much to keep up with the pride. I just feel as if the word ‘abandoned’ can be misused.

S.Avocas are definitely nomads, they weren't dominant when they went to the Hamilton pride, they went there because they were ousted by Nkhulus to begin with. The Hamilton pride is like 50km away from their previous territory, they only travelled so long because they become nomads to begin with. Reply

[KM600]

(08-30-2023, 08:00 AM)Mapokser Wrote:

(08-29-2023, 09:19 AM)KM600 Wrote:

(08-29-2023, 08:48 AM)Mapokser Wrote:

(08-29-2023, 05:00 AM)KM600 Wrote:

(08-29-2023, 04:17 AM)Mapokser Wrote: The Avoca male is in perfect condition, but as a nomad, and apparently alone, for how long? He is not that old but isn't young either. Even if he were to join up with another male, I doubt he'll ever be dominant again. He did try with his brother and it didn't work out. 

His only chance at becoming dominant again would be if he joined a big coalition.

Would depend on where he tried to rule, you have to remember the Southern Avocas are the most battle tested coalition in Sabi Sands. Majority of coalitions in SS only consist of two members, so as long as he found a good partner, I really wouldn’t bet against him becoming a dominant, pride male yet again. Also you’re on about the Northern Avoca male, Mohawk, the lion we’re talking about is his brother from a different coalition who resides in the Southern part of Sabi Sands.

I said nothing about Mohawk, I was talking about his southern brother.

S.Avocas the most battle tested coalition in SS? Maybe, but regardless, I always considered them one of the strongest duos. But the remaining male is apparently alone now, and even if he finds a partner quickly, it'll take time for them to bond, adapt and find a territory to potentially try to take over, until this happens, Avoca will have turned 11 already and it's doubtful if they'd be a strong coalition.

Keep in mind that S.Avocas, when they were still 2, soon after going nomadic, were seen mating with the Hamilton females and marking the territory ( which was something the 2 Leeubrons were also doing a month earlier ) and now apparently Leeubrons have established themselves there while Avocas are still nomadic and probably down to 1. So chances are the older Leeubrons outcompeted the younger S. Avocas ( even if they aren't responsible for whatever happened to the bigger Avoca ).

If the other Avoca would show up and join his brother and they'd still show a drive to be dominant, then they'd have decent chances, but if the remaining male is indeed alone, his only chance would be joining a big coalition.

Misinterpreted the comment after u said he tried being dominant with his brother but it didn’t work out, believing u were on about DM and Mohawks last reunion before tragedy struck. Even while the Southern Avocas went after the Hamilton pride, they were still dominant males over the Sand River Pride albeit they weren’t there to protect them from the Nkhulu males. That’s only changed since the lone Avoca male was spotted in Mala Mala by himself and without his pride. Even now, I’d argue he could still be considered a pride male at worst until there’s proof he’s been ousted from his pride. I think there was a lot of talk in regards to the Southern Avocas ‘abondoning’ the Sand River Pride but these brothers spend a lot of time in KNP, big reason we lack info on them as opposed to every other coalition in Sabi Sands. I think if it wasn’t for the Nkhulu males presence, ppl wouldn’t think anything of it. Ppl also believed DM abandoned the Talamati pride when he was facing pressure from S8, when I believe in reality, he was struggling too much to keep up with the pride. I just feel as if the word ‘abandoned’ can be misused.

S.Avocas are definitely nomads, they weren't dominant when they went to the Hamilton pride, they went there because they were ousted by Nkhulus to begin with. The Hamilton pride is like 50km away from their previous territory, they only travelled so long because they become nomads to begin with.

Maybe but I hadn’t heard of any interaction between the two coalitions since Dreadlocks was attacked, remember it was only after the Southern Avocas left, they started attacking the Sand River Pride. Reply

[KM600]

(08-30-2023, 07:30 AM)afortich Wrote:

(08-30-2023, 04:58 AM)BA0701 Wrote:

(08-30-2023, 03:06 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: I think we need to remember that these are still young lions. They need to be beaten around a bit so they settle further away from their natal pride and turn their cubish playfighting and youthfull naivity into actual experience and confidence. They are tought by their mother and aunts to run from any rival males coming close. So that is what they are going to do for a while until it clicks they are the rival males now. Size and numbers arent much a factor until that happens.

And Mohawks presence isnt going to change much in that aspect. He is just tagging along for his own survival, not some kind of sensei teaching his sons how to lion.

I didn't see anyone claiming that Mohawk was some sort of sensei, but I did say they are learning a tremendous amount from him. Can they only learn things like hunting from females, do you not think they will learn a lot from being with him during this period of their lives, a period in which the majority of male lions are on their own to learn from their own mistakes, mistakes that can at times be deadly?

I agree with you bro @BA0701 in that is very likely that Mohawk may be teaching his sons in different ways, and who knows perhaps also hoping to form a coalition in the future.

What needs to happen in order for ppl to consider this being a coalition, challenging for territory? I’d argue it could already be considered one, normally the young males would have been ousted long before now. Reply