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(05-12-2021, 09:52 PM)Potato Wrote: Avocas already took big chunk of Birminghams territory and the Birminghams made no response to that threat so far.
I wouldn't say big chuck, that area in northern Londolozi/MalaMala, around Mluwati Dam was vacated by Bboys since beggining of 2019, way before Avocas start seeing there, but recently they took part of Bboys territory around Campbell Koppies, just near Main Camp thats true..
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(05-12-2021, 09:34 PM)S.N.M.T.N Wrote: The Birmingham's males will join forces, the BBoys proven it numerous times
Avocas already took big chunk of Birminghams territory and the Birminghams made no response to that threat so far.
Which is surprising given the size of the Kambula Pride. But, they are currently splintered and spread all over the place. If the Kambulas and the B-Boys were to remain a cohesive group there is no pride or coalition that could take anything from them. In fact, they could go anywhere and take anything they please, as was the case before the pride broke off into so many smaller groups.
However, I am not sure the long term prospects of such a super pride are very good, as just feeding such a large group definitely presents some challenges.
(05-12-2021, 09:34 PM)S.N.M.T.N Wrote: The Birmingham's males will join forces, the BBoys proven it numerous times
Avocas already took big chunk of Birminghams territory and the Birminghams made no response to that threat so far.
Which is surprising given the size of the Kambula Pride. But, they are currently splintered and spread all over the place. If the Kambulas and the B-Boys were to remain a cohesive group there is no pride or coalition that could take anything from them. In fact, they could go anywhere and take anything they please, as was the case before the pride broke off into so many smaller groups.
However, I am not sure the long term prospects of such a super pride are very good, as just feeding such a large group definitely presents some challenges.
Both the Nkuhumas and Torchwoods have more adult females than the Kambulas and are lead by two males in their prime. So they can’t do much to any of the prides in the north.
05-12-2021, 10:24 PM( This post was last modified: 05-12-2021, 10:29 PM by Tr1x24 )
(05-12-2021, 09:59 PM)Gijima Wrote: Any coalition can be a threat if you try to push into their territory. But there is no comparison between what the OM did and what these two are doing. Their whole strategy and approach is different. In 2017-2018 they confronted two adult males and possibly more in the Manyeleti. They know the struggles of injuries and having difficult territories to take over where you have mothers and sub adults and nomadic males running around. OM thought just because he walked around Londolozi for one month roaring he had completed a take over. It’s sad to think how little he probably understood about how lion society works. He has never even seen an adult male lion up close since his fathers died.
Disagree on part that he never encountered other males, OM was chased by 1 and both Bboys multiple times in the past year.. He know exactly against who and how many lions was he against, and yet he still didn't back down..
Also he had an encounters with Ginger, HB, 4 Nwaswitshakas (few times) , Styx/NK and prob Tumbelas (althrough no reports but i assume he did as both where in Singita, and Tumbelas chose western sector and not his territory, he prob chased them atleast once) , and thats only what we know about, prob had few more, not seen..
I think its just over confidence and lack of experience for danger in these situations (which lions get mostly in nomadic days, when they are chased by dominant males 24/7) cost OM..
This guy was charging at 2 S. Avocas in 2017,at only 2.5 yrs old, they where almost double his size.. He was in charge of chasing Mhangeni youngsters at the age of 3, become dominant at the age of only 4, never had an threat for his territory in 2 yrs, he and Mhangenis where bullying everybody.. And now when he entered his prime, his confidence was over the roof and he wanted more..
(05-12-2021, 09:59 PM)Gijima Wrote: Any coalition can be a threat if you try to push into their territory. But there is no comparison between what the OM did and what these two are doing. Their whole strategy and approach is different. In 2017-2018 they confronted two adult males and possibly more in the Manyeleti. They know the struggles of injuries and having difficult territories to take over where you have mothers and sub adults and nomadic males running around. OM thought just because he walked around Londolozi for one month roaring he had completed a take over. It’s sad to think how little he probably understood about how lion society works. He has never even seen an adult male lion up close since his fathers died.
Disagree on part that he never encountered other males, OM was chased by 1 and both Bboys multiple times in the past year.. He know exactly against who and how many lions was he against, and yet he still didn't back down..
Also he had an encounters with Ginger, HB, 4 Nwaswitshakas (few times) , Styx/NK and prob Tumbelas (althrough no reports but i assume he did as both where in Singita, and Tumbelas chose western sector and not his territory, he prob chased them atleast once) , and thats only what we know about, prob had few more, not seen..
I think its just over confidence and lack of experience for danger in these situations (which lions get mostly in nomadic days, when they are chased by dominant males 24/7) cost OM..
This guy was charging at 2 S. Avocas in 2017,at only 2.5 yrs old, they where almost double his size.. He was in charge of chasing Mhangeni youngsters at the age of 3, become dominant at the age of only 4, never had an threat for his territory in 2 yrs, he and Mhangenis where bullying everybody.. And now when he entered his prime, his confidence was over the roof and he wanted more..
I take back what I said about seeing male lions. He obviously saw male lions. But it’s not the same experience that others had in the wild. We have no eye witness accounts he encountered the NW males or Tumbelas physically. The Southern Avocas were four years old and not impressive at all at the age he saw them. He was courageous but this wasn’t an encounter with an adult male lion at all.
I think we are both saying the same thing— a lack of experience lead to his death. Even having a brother who kicks your butt can keep you humble, and Mohawk’s been slapped around a few times by his brothers.
(05-12-2021, 10:38 PM)Gijima Wrote: I think we are both saying the same thing— a lack of experience lead to his death. Even having a brother who kicks your butt can keep you humble, and Mohawk’s been slapped around a few times by his brothers.
I mean, yes we can say that, althrough we dont know what exactly happened that night, but even far more experienced male lions did mistakes which cost them their lifes, so "experience" thing also can be questioned..
05-12-2021, 11:59 PM( This post was last modified: 05-12-2021, 11:59 PM by T I N O )
The Birmingham males not are feeling the pressure of the Avoca males at the moment, as well, they eliminated a very potential rival as the Othawa male was. I guess, this will gave them more confidence, the enough confidence that they needed in my personal opinion. They're ageing, And won a territorial fight at this stage of the match will have a big impact within the coalition
(05-12-2021, 10:38 PM)Gijima Wrote: I think we are both saying the same thing— a lack of experience lead to his death. Even having a brother who kicks your butt can keep you humble, and Mohawk’s been slapped around a few times by his brothers.
I mean, yes we can say that, althrough we dont know what exactly happened that night, but even far more experienced male lions did mistakes which cost them their lifes, so "experience" thing also can be questioned..
It is pretty accurate my friend, the Othawa male had enough confidence to challenge the Birmingham males in 2v1, But he had a lack of experience remarkable at the same time. He already knew to what he will involved, if he keeping pushing futher the Birmingham males territory, all this started in 2018 or so, when the Birmingham males giving him some warning's in the past, so, he already knew how many males and how strong were, At the same time, he ignored the Birmingham males and payed the price of that... the experience played an important role this time and will played in numerous occacions.
I dont think they have lack of confidence. They just didnt want to get into needless fights.
The Avocas largely snipped off small parts of their territory. Which may be insulting, but it sofar doesn't endanger the Birmingham Males position.
They can just retreat a little bit further south. They still have just as much control over the pride as they did before and if needed, they can just go back and reclaim the land once the Avocas went home.
So it may not be worth getting wounded over.
Othawa male just barged in, went straight for the heart of the territory, likely ran into a part of the pride with cubs and by doing so tossed in a open challenge to the Birminghams.
Thats something you just cant ignore. If a rival lion does that, you either flee or attack.
(05-13-2021, 12:45 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: I dont think they have lack of confidence. They just didnt want to get into needless fights.
The Avocas largely snipped off small parts of their territory. Which may be insulting, but it sofar doesn't endanger the Birmingham Males position.
They can just retreat a little bit further south. They still have just as much control over the pride as they did before and if needed, they can just go back and reclaim the land once the Avocas went home.
So it may not be worth getting wounded over.
Othawa male just barged in, went straight for the heart of the territory, likely ran into a part of the pride with cubs and by doing so tossed in a open challenge to the Birminghams.
Thats something you just cant ignore. If a rival lion does that, you either flee or attack.
Of course, I understand what do you say, the Birmingham males at that time neither were forced to fight for a territory and much less did not get pressured by the Avoca males out of their territory, in fact, are holding a big part of MalaMala , I'm very surprising with the size of the Ntsevu pride territory too. That means that both males and females are a force to be reckoned with, controlling one of the best areas of Sabi Sands for years now. If they are still dominant there, it is for something, nothing is free in the bush, The Othawa male move was the drop that revalued the glass, And without a doubt the Birmingham males reacted quickly.
(05-13-2021, 12:45 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: The Avocas largely snipped off small parts of their territory. Which may be insulting, but it sofar doesn't endanger the Birmingham Males position.
That could have been said when they took northern reaches of Mala Mala and Londolozi and mated with Tsalala lioneses, but that is not the case anymore. MOst recen Avoca's actions are definitelly more than that.
(05-13-2021, 12:45 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: They still have just as much control over the pride as they did before and if needed
Avocas already started claiming arenas which used to be so far Kambula pride territory and they mated with some of Kambula females. BIrmionghams are clearly lossing their grip over that pride.
(05-13-2021, 12:45 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: they can just go back and reclaim the land once the Avocas went home
If it would be so easy then they would already get rid of Avocas long time ago.
(05-13-2021, 12:45 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Othawa male just barged in, went straight for the heart of the territory, likely ran into a part of the pride with cubs and by doing so tossed in a open challenge to the Birminghams.
Thats something you just cant ignore. If a rival lion does that, you either flee or attack.
What Avocas are doing is open challange as well. They are just taking piece of land after piece, slowly striping Birminghams from their lands and pride insteed of going for everythink at once like Othawa male has done.
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05-13-2021, 01:56 AM( This post was last modified: 05-13-2021, 01:57 AM by Tr1x24 )
(05-13-2021, 01:27 AM)Potato Wrote: BIrmionghams are clearly lossing their grip over that pride.
Thats overexaggeration..
Yes, few Kambulas where mating with neigbouring males (mostly infertile lioness), but they are still very much loyal to Bboys and will be even more when they start giving birth to cubs, they wont welcome Avocas with small cubs near them, they will seek protection, thats for sure..
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05-13-2021, 02:03 AM( This post was last modified: 05-13-2021, 02:11 AM by Duco Ndona )
I am not saying that they can allow this to continue permanently. Just that so far the situation in their eyes probably isn't critical enough to act on it.
They aren't aware of the lionesses sneaking off. And reclaiming land is just a matter of scent marking there again. A fight with the Avocas is not something you do unless you are absolutely sure its needed. They arent the usual scared teenagers. .
Its like the old saying about the frog in the boiling water.
Where the Avoca's are slowly warming the water until the frog is boiled. While the Othawa male just threw the frog in the hot water so it jumped out..
Only once the Birminghams realize how hot the water has gotten. We will see if they fight or surrender.
(05-13-2021, 12:45 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: The Avocas largely snipped off small parts of their territory. Which may be insulting, but it sofar doesn't endanger the Birmingham Males position.
That could have been said when they took northern reaches of Mala Mala and Londolozi and mated with Tsalala lioneses, but that is not the case anymore. MOst recen Avoca's actions are definitelly more than that.
(05-13-2021, 12:45 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: They still have just as much control over the pride as they did before and if needed
Avocas already started claiming arenas which used to be so far Kambula pride territory and they mated with some of Kambula females. BIrmionghams are clearly lossing their grip over that pride.
(05-13-2021, 12:45 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: they can just go back and reclaim the land once the Avocas went home
If it would be so easy then they would already get rid of Avocas long time ago.
(05-13-2021, 12:45 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Othawa male just barged in, went straight for the heart of the territory, likely ran into a part of the pride with cubs and by doing so tossed in a open challenge to the Birminghams.
Thats something you just cant ignore. If a rival lion does that, you either flee or attack.
What Avocas are doing is open challange as well. They are just taking piece of land after piece, slowly striping Birminghams from their lands and pride insteed of going for everythink at once like Othawa male has done.
1 - As far I remember only mated with the cucbless Ntsevu lioness, did they mated with the other females? therefore, they didn't lose the control over the Ntsevu females, as most recetly, all the lionesses are speding the time with the Birmingham males.
2 - Avoca males are tooking piece by piece the Birmingham males territory, but as per the recent MalaMala image of lion territories, shows that the Birmingham males still have a very big territory.
(05-13-2021, 01:27 AM)Potato Wrote: BIrmionghams are clearly lossing their grip over that pride.
Thats overexaggeration..
Yes, few Kambulas where mating with neigbouring males (mostly infertile lioness), but they are still very much loyal to Bboys and will be even more when they start giving birth to cubs, they wont welcome Avocas with small cubs near them, they will seek protection, thats for sure..
You nailed it again, saying that the Birmingham males are losing their territory and pride is an over exaggerated fact. We've seen clearly the Ntsevu females together with the Birmingham males numerous times, only the cubless lioness is doing havoc with the lion dynamics of Londolozi and MM. Recently, Londolozi posted information on IG that one of the lionesses with fresh suckle marks, so, new cubs have born within pride.
Avoca Male Lions and Their Male Lineage
