Avoca Male Lions and Their Male Lineage

[Mapokser]

As for Mohawk and his sons running, although it shows the strength of the Ndhzengas, it's not that surprising.

What we have to keep in mind is that regardless of age, there's a huge difference between territorial/dominant males and nomads.

Mohawk is now a nomad and therefore has the mentality of one: he won't stand his ground to dominant males. He switched from dominant to nomad at the beginning of the year and since then he hasn't showed any of the confidence he once had.

It'll probably take 6 months to a year for his sons to start showing interest in being territorial, which will also switch Mohawk's mentality from "guess I'll have to keep surviving day by day" to "guess I'll try siring more cubs". Reply

[afortich]

(08-30-2023, 08:12 AM)KM600 Wrote:

(08-30-2023, 07:30 AM)afortich Wrote:

(08-30-2023, 04:58 AM)BA0701 Wrote:

(08-30-2023, 03:06 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: I think we need to remember that these are still young lions. They need to be beaten around a bit so they settle further away from their natal pride and turn their cubish playfighting and youthfull naivity into actual experience and confidence. They are tought by their mother and aunts to run from any rival males coming close. So that is what they are going to do for a while until it clicks they are the rival males now. Size and numbers arent much a factor until that happens.

And Mohawks presence isnt going to change much in that aspect. He is just tagging along for his own survival, not some kind of sensei teaching his sons how to lion.

I didn't see anyone claiming that Mohawk was some sort of sensei, but I did say they are learning a tremendous amount from him. Can they only learn things like hunting from females, do you not think they will learn a lot from being with him during this period of their lives, a period in which the majority of male lions are on their own to learn from their own mistakes, mistakes that can at times be deadly?

I agree with you bro @BA0701 in that is very likely that Mohawk may be teaching his sons in different ways, and who knows perhaps also hoping to form a coalition in the future.

What needs to happen in order for ppl to consider this being a coalition, challenging for territory? I’d argue it could already be considered one, normally the young males would have been ousted long before now.

@KM600 I agree that the fact that Mohawk hasn't ousted them appears to be a good sign but still got doubts because he's alone, which makes ousting 4 subadults way more difficult.
In addition to what is been happening between Mohawk and his sons, I personally would like to see them backing Mohawk up in confrontations to consider them the beginning of a coalition. Reply

[BA0701]

(08-30-2023, 08:12 AM)KM600 Wrote:

(08-30-2023, 07:30 AM)afortich Wrote:

(08-30-2023, 04:58 AM)BA0701 Wrote:

(08-30-2023, 03:06 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: I think we need to remember that these are still young lions. They need to be beaten around a bit so they settle further away from their natal pride and turn their cubish playfighting and youthfull naivity into actual experience and confidence. They are tought by their mother and aunts to run from any rival males coming close. So that is what they are going to do for a while until it clicks they are the rival males now. Size and numbers arent much a factor until that happens.

And Mohawks presence isnt going to change much in that aspect. He is just tagging along for his own survival, not some kind of sensei teaching his sons how to lion.

I didn't see anyone claiming that Mohawk was some sort of sensei, but I did say they are learning a tremendous amount from him. Can they only learn things like hunting from females, do you not think they will learn a lot from being with him during this period of their lives, a period in which the majority of male lions are on their own to learn from their own mistakes, mistakes that can at times be deadly?

I agree with you bro @BA0701 in that is very likely that Mohawk may be teaching his sons in different ways, and who knows perhaps also hoping to form a coalition in the future.

What needs to happen in order for ppl to consider this being a coalition, challenging for territory? I’d argue it could already be considered one, normally the young males would have been ousted long before now.

I agree, they already look to be a coalition, but they are currently nomadic, or some might say semi-. We may explore an Avoca Male Lineage thread in the near future, given their sons are now reaching the age of going out and making a name for themselves. Reply

[afortich]

(08-30-2023, 08:23 AM)BA0701 Wrote:

(08-30-2023, 08:12 AM)KM600 Wrote:

(08-30-2023, 07:30 AM)afortich Wrote:

(08-30-2023, 04:58 AM)BA0701 Wrote:

(08-30-2023, 03:06 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: I think we need to remember that these are still young lions. They need to be beaten around a bit so they settle further away from their natal pride and turn their cubish playfighting and youthfull naivity into actual experience and confidence. They are tought by their mother and aunts to run from any rival males coming close. So that is what they are going to do for a while until it clicks they are the rival males now. Size and numbers arent much a factor until that happens.

And Mohawks presence isnt going to change much in that aspect. He is just tagging along for his own survival, not some kind of sensei teaching his sons how to lion.

I didn't see anyone claiming that Mohawk was some sort of sensei, but I did say they are learning a tremendous amount from him. Can they only learn things like hunting from females, do you not think they will learn a lot from being with him during this period of their lives, a period in which the majority of male lions are on their own to learn from their own mistakes, mistakes that can at times be deadly?

I agree with you bro @BA0701 in that is very likely that Mohawk may be teaching his sons in different ways, and who knows perhaps also hoping to form a coalition in the future.

What needs to happen in order for ppl to consider this being a coalition, challenging for territory? I’d argue it could already be considered one, normally the young males would have been ousted long before now.

I agree, they already look to be a coalition, but they are currently nomadic, or some might say semi-. We may explore an Avoca Male Lineage thread in the near future, given their sons are now reaching the age of going out and making a name for themselves.

That thread is a great idea, I look forward to seeing it created. Reply

[KM600]

Weird how there’s been no interactions that I know of between Mohawk with his sons and the young Talamati males or the young Kambula males, they seem to constantly be around the same places. Reply

[Tr1x24]

(08-30-2023, 11:50 PM)KM600 Wrote: Weird how there’s been no interactions that I know of between Mohawk with his sons and the young Talamati males or the young Kambula males, they seem to constantly be around the same places.

Well, we are getting only glimpses of what is happening out there, if we didnt see something, it doesnt mean it didnt happened, as lions are most active at night.

If there is no carcass to compete for, nomadic male coalitions dont want to exactly fight each others, although if 1 group sees they are much stronger, they would take this opportunity to "test" their strenght and boost confidence with attack, this especially applies for coalitions like Talamatis and Kambulas who will soon be in territorial/challengers phase. Reply

[KM600]

(08-31-2023, 12:36 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote:

(08-30-2023, 11:50 PM)KM600 Wrote: Weird how there’s been no interactions that I know of between Mohawk with his sons and the young Talamati males or the young Kambula males, they seem to constantly be around the same places.

Well, we are getting only glimpses of what is happening out there, if we didnt see something, it doesnt mean it didnt happened, as lions are most active at night.

If there is no carcass to compete for, nomadic male coalitions dont want to exactly fight each others, although if 1 group sees they are much stronger, they would take this opportunity to "test" their strenght and boost confidence with attack, this especially applies for coalitions like Talamatis and Kambulas who will soon be in territorial/challengers phase.

100% I remember saying something similar when someone told me Makhulu hadn’t participated in any fight until he left with the 5 Mapogos in 2006 despite being 8 years old and had already been in the WSM coalition, their whole point was because no fight had been seen from the rangers, it didn’t happen. Reply

[afortich]

(08-31-2023, 01:13 AM)KM600 Wrote:

(08-31-2023, 12:36 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote:

(08-30-2023, 11:50 PM)KM600 Wrote: Weird how there’s been no interactions that I know of between Mohawk with his sons and the young Talamati males or the young Kambula males, they seem to constantly be around the same places.

Well, we are getting only glimpses of what is happening out there, if we didnt see something, it doesnt mean it didnt happened, as lions are most active at night.

If there is no carcass to compete for, nomadic male coalitions dont want to exactly fight each others, although if 1 group sees they are much stronger, they would take this opportunity to "test" their strenght and boost confidence with attack, this especially applies for coalitions like Talamatis and Kambulas who will soon be in territorial/challengers phase.

100% I remember saying something similar when someone told me Makhulu hadn’t participated in any fight until he left with the 5 Mapogos in 2006 despite being 8 years old and had already been in the WSM coalition, their whole point was because no fight had been seen from the rangers, it didn’t happen.

Right, the fact that we don't see some interactions it doesn't mean that didn't happen. That's what I've been saying too about lacking information.
All we know is based on a few minutes we get to record of a lion(s) day, which is a very tiny fraction of their lives. Therefore, we need to be open to anything when it comes to lions and animals behavior. Reply

[Mapokser]

@KM600 There were some fights over carcasses between Mapogos and Skukuza males in 2005, as well as the apparent killing of the Rollercoaster Male with a bad eye, all in 2005, a year after the last WSM died. Makhulu only turned 8 in late 2006.

These aren't big fights exactly ( involving carcasses ), while clashes and chases can happen, if a lion has a big territorial fight, their wounds will be immediately noticed by rangers once they get sighted again. Mala Mala had monthly reports on WSM and the Eyrefield pride, but they never noticed such a thing on young Makhulu.

Same in this scenario, while it'a possible Talamatis, Nkuhumas and Kambulas have met and chased each other, if there had been any significant fight we'd have seen the injuries, just like when the smaller Talamati male got injured in the west, we didn't know who attacked him but we saw he had injuries, was limping, split from his brother and guests said he got attacked. Reply

[KM600]

(08-31-2023, 02:34 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @KM600 There were some fights over carcasses between Mapogos and Skukuza males in 2005, as well as the apparent killing of the Rollercoaster Male with a bad eye, all in 2005, a year after the last WSM died. Makhulu only turned 8 in late 2006.

These aren't big fights exactly ( involving carcasses ), while clashes and chases can happen, if a lion has a big territorial fight, their wounds will be immediately noticed by rangers once they get sighted again. Mala Mala had monthly reports on WSM and the Eyrefield pride, but they never noticed such a thing on young Makhulu.

Same in this scenario, while it'a possible Talamatis, Nkuhumas and Kambulas have met and chased each other, if there had been any significant fight we'd have seen the injuries, just like when the smaller Talamati male got injured in the west, we didn't know who attacked him but we saw he had injuries, was limping, split from his brother and guests said he got attacked.

I never said he was involved in big territorial fights, but more so he would have been involved in fights especially as he was in his prime. Reply

[BA0701]

All, while this is a very interesting conversation, one that I am quite enjoying, if it is to continue, and I hope that it does as I always enjoy hearing about Big Mak, I'd ask that it be moved to the proper thread. Momentary tangents happen regularly in the natural course of a conversation, but extended conversations should be moved to the proper thread. Thank you!

Mapogo Thread Reply

[Tylermartin!]

I know sometimes some of us including myself hop to conclusions but is the larger southern avoca gone? Reply

[T_Ferguson]

(09-01-2023, 12:56 AM)Tylermartin! Wrote: I know sometimes some of us including myself hop to conclusions but is the larger southern avoca gone?

It doesn't look good, but the truth at the moment is that we don't know.  We likely won't be able to say ok gone for a year without a sighting. Reply

[criollo2mil]

(09-01-2023, 12:56 AM)Tylermartin! Wrote: I know sometimes some of us including myself hop to conclusions but is the larger southern avoca gone?

I don’t have a good feeling at all about it. I di t ever recall a time when the two had separated let alone for this long. The fact they had been traversing into areas of multiple coalitions and back could have exposed them to conflict. It would be a huge shame. Without a carcass we’re going to be in a Tinyo type situation where time will confirm what we’re fearing today. Reply

[Duco Ndona]

Its hard to say. The last sighting was a while ago, even before the sighting of the wounded brother alone. So sightings of the Avocas, alive or not are already very sporadic. That they are living right next to Kruger, where its normal for lions not to be seen for long periods does not help. Nor does it help that they are now nomadic, so there is no set location like a pride for them to return to. 

This makes getting a good picture of what is going on difficult so it may be a while before some of the bigger names in the animal tracking community start making obituaries. You are going to look pretty stupid if you post a video and he pops up a few days later in Kruger. 

On the other hand. Past behavoir indicates that atleast something big happened. As they are rarely seen apart for long periods of times and the remaining Avoca is seen with scars. 
If those images weren't there, we wouldn't even have this discussion. 

So we are stuck waiting now for the next sightings. But I think its safe to say that the Avoca era of Sabi Sands is coming to an end. 
Which is rather shocking as just over a year ago, they were still going strong with two coalitions totalling 5 lions. Now they are down to two nomadic lions of which one on its own. Reply