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(10-07-2020, 07:01 PM)Gijima Wrote: Read something about how the NAvocas just walked into an empty territory on the Lions of SS thread and wanted to clear up that info (moving it to the Avoca thread to not spam the other one). I’m not blaming the poster since this is spread by some uninformed guides on WE all the time but here is a video of the BBoys coming to Djuma for the last time (May 3 2018) to fight for their territory and leaving battered and bruised, never to return again to the north:
1) Although BBoys moved to the south, they did often visit the north (nkuhuma and Styx in 2018). No coalition of 4 would limit themselves to one pride or even just Mala Mala. They would have ideally have owned most of the eastern sector as any normal coalition of 4 would, with multiple prides. The N Avocas had everything to do with limiting BBoys to just one pride and yes, BBoys could definitely have fought and ousted the Avocas if they attacked them as a coalition of 4 but they chose not to.
2) In the video the ranger says one lion was seen running north. This fight happened in May 3 2018 and Mfumo was never seen after this date. This is purely speculation but could Mfumo have been with these two BBoys when they came up north? The last reports of Mfumo are that he was seen “up north”... so he had to have been with Tinyo and Nsuku because clearly they were up north too.. All of this is speculation I know but it always bothered me he just went MIA and this is the only real confrontation I can think of that happened at that time.
Anyways....just wanted to share.
Well, I happen to think they walked into that territory and I have said it several times on this board that they weren't really challenged for it. A few days earlier, Junior was reported as chasing the Northern Avocas around a waterhole in the north; someone on this board even joked that Junior was avenging his fathers. Lions do abandon prides it happens fairly regularly even if there's no one challenging them for it. As to limiting themselves to one single pride, by the time they established themselves in SS, Mfumo was gone and Nsuku succumbed soon afterwards. Had they stayed four then there may have been pressure to expand beyond the Kambulas. But the Kambulas are a big prideide and one of the BBoys already has cubs with the Tsalala lioness.
A few days after the fight you mentioned the Northern Avocas were separated with Dark Mane on his own searching for his brothers (check the Safari videos). So that lone lion could be him. Two BBoys were definitely seen up north and no one at the time--not on this board, not on Facebook, YouTube, etc--even speculated that Mfumo could have died in that particular fight.
The video I showed has evidence of a literally fight, and here's another video:
These aren't signs that the Avocas weren't challenged. They were challenged (sure half-heartily, I'm sure the BBoys could have put up a better fight if they didn't find new lands) but they did try to scare them away. That was my point and I don't think you can really argue with that.
Anyways, I'm glad both coalitions found their land and females and no one died. I think it's strange in a wildlife forum people sometimes glorify dead and dying over just survival and resilience (not that you guys do it on this thread but just in general). I never felt the need to "defend" any coalition but this idea that they were never in any risk was always silly to me.
Mfumo- Honestly this is just me speculating. Unless a male in his prime dropped dead in Mala Mala, in an area no one traverses, he must have gone somewhere else and gotten into a conflict. We will never know, he was one of my fav cats, and yeah... it's just my brain trying to make sense of something that will never make sense.
If well the Northern Avoca males didn't were pressure to be on a fight with the BBoys. when the Northern Avoca males have arrived on the northern Sabi Sands, the three brothers had a few fights before with the HB n Ginger,Skorro thanda impi etc.
They really were 'ready' for anything that happened during the possibly take-over,In my opinion the ones who honestly deserves a lot of credits are the southern Avoca males! Those guys were involved on several fights with other male lions in the KNP/SS... Perhaps the most know fight of them was with the 3 Tsalala males (At that time the Tsalala were in really bad shape) If well they not were very skinny. They not were well fed as the S.Avocas.
(10-07-2020, 11:14 PM)Gijima Wrote: The video I showed has evidence of a literally fight, and here's another video:
These aren't signs that the Avocas weren't challenged. They were challenged (sure half-heartily, I'm sure the BBoys could have put up a better fight if they didn't find new lands) but they did try to scare them away. That was my point and I don't think you can really argue with that.
Anyways, I'm glad both coalitions found their land and females and no one died. I think it's strange in a wildlife forum people sometimes glorify dead and dying over just survival and resilience (not that you guys do it on this thread but just in general). I never felt the need to "defend" any coalition but this idea that they were never in any risk was always silly to me.
Mfumo- Honestly this is just me speculating. Unless a male in his prime dropped dead in Mala Mala, in an area no one traverses, he must have gone somewhere else and gotten into a conflict. We will never know, he was one of my fav cats, and yeah... it's just my brain trying to make sense of something that will never make sense.
I am not contesting that there wasn't a fight. I am contesting the statement that they somehow pushed the BBoys out after a sustained challenge or that they had a hand in Mfumo's disappearance. Lions prime or otherwise die or disappear all the time without a trace, its not that unusual. Mistime a jump on a buffalo and a punctured lung would mean bleeding slowly to death.
The Southern Avocas were chased out of their territory and separated around Kirkman's camp the last time the Charleston's popped up there. The Charleston's never returned to that territory again, by this logic it means that they were pushed out too and that the Avocas somehow killed Mezzino Charleston since he was found with a broken back a few weeks later.
(10-08-2020, 03:18 AM)Matimbalani Wrote: I am not contesting that there wasn't a fight. I am contesting the statement that they somehow pushed the BBoys out after a sustained challenge or that they had a hand in Mfumo's disappearance. Lions prime or otherwise die or disappear all the time without a trace, its not that unusual. Mistime a jump on a buffalo and a punctured lung would mean bleeding slowly to death.
The Southern Avocas were chased out of their territory and separated around Kirkman's camp the last time the Charleston's popped up there. The Charleston's never returned to that territory again, by this logic it means that they were pushed out too and that the Avocas somehow killed Mezzino Charleston since he was found with a broken back a few weeks later.
I agree... I never said sustained challenge. :) I also agree, unless I have video or photo proving Mfumo was in the north I won’t usually treat it as a fact. It was actually reported by a ranger in Mala Mala (it was in one of their monthly Reports that I’m too lazy to pull up) ...but as we have seen in the past even ranger reports can be wrong if they are reporting secondhand info.
I think after a few years of crazy warfare it was nice that everyone got to shift territories in 2018 without too much trouble. Bboys, Avocas, Ottawa Male, and Matimba...
(10-07-2020, 11:14 PM)Gijima Wrote: The video I showed has evidence of a literally fight, and here's another video:
These aren't signs that the Avocas weren't challenged. They were challenged (sure half-heartily, I'm sure the BBoys could have put up a better fight if they didn't find new lands) but they did try to scare them away. That was my point and I don't think you can really argue with that.
Anyways, I'm glad both coalitions found their land and females and no one died. I think it's strange in a wildlife forum people sometimes glorify dead and dying over just survival and resilience (not that you guys do it on this thread but just in general). I never felt the need to "defend" any coalition but this idea that they were never in any risk was always silly to me.
Mfumo- Honestly this is just me speculating. Unless a male in his prime dropped dead in Mala Mala, in an area no one traverses, he must have gone somewhere else and gotten into a conflict. We will never know, he was one of my fav cats, and yeah... it's just my brain trying to make sense of something that will never make sense.
At the end of 2017 and start of 2018, the Bboys left the North to extend. They still came to the north every once in while but mostly stuck south going as far as to be seen in Lion Sands and Kirkmans Kamp far south to being seen in Western Singita far west so they were really letting their wings fly. That's almost all of Sabi Sands and in this time they chased and pushed out the Matshipiri, the Southern Avocas and according to Mala Mala kept the mighty Mantimahle from coming further north as they were seen pushing into Sabi Sands even being seen with the Kambula Pride on occasion. During this time, the N Avocas pushed into Sabi Sand and made a claim. 2 Bboys came, Nsuku, Tinyo and then later Nhenha and according to Safari Live at that time the Avocas tracks were seen heading into the Manyelethi. So they ran after hearing 3 Bboys roaring. The Bboys then stayed in the North for a while and then apparently left back south. After that wildlife safari released that video saying the Bboys were somehow injured and there could have been a fight. Well we don't know for sure. For all we know Nhenha got pissed and beat them up like he always does. And why did the Birminghams have wounds and not the Avocas? You really think 2 fully grown prime males are not going to beat the crap out of inexperienced youngsters and come worse off? I mean you can see what the Bboys do to each other, there is no way they wouldn't beat up youngsters. Yes the Bboys tried pushing them north but by then were already so far south and west they didn't need to. They just abandoned the area. Also you said 1 pride? No the Birminghams were still mating with the Kambula at the time and were still extending because they mated with and took over the Mangheni pride and found the Tsalala. Again there are pictures of the Avocas after the dissappearance if Mfumo. Do you really think they could have killed a prime male and came out unscathed?
10-08-2020, 09:00 AM( This post was last modified: 10-08-2020, 09:02 AM by Slayerd )
(10-07-2020, 10:28 PM)Gijima Wrote: I agree this definitely wasn't a violent takeover but it wasn't any less impressive than the way Bboys took over the north. For one thing, the Avocas were outnumbered... how many young males try to sneak into other male's territories like this and get isolated or cornered and killed? They definitely played the game well, and took a risk. I guess I just hate when people act like the Avocas took no risk and walked into an open territory... which wasn't the case.
Bboys were with both prides I think until March (Nhena was mating with Amber eyes), and then when they returned in May, Nsuku had a swollen eye, a puncture wound on his head and Tinyo was slightly limping. Honestly who even knows what happened that night... it was just interesting.
Mfumo- I think I read somewhere that the last he was seen was "up north" or "in Kruger". There was a lot of random information floating around about his disappearance and no, I really don't think Avocas had anything to do it. Having said that, he definitely went somewhere so it was just interesting to know that all of this happened around the same time.
Also you said the Avovas takeover wasn't any less impressive then the Birminghams? The Birminghams came in like a storm. They chased everything and were already pushing the Matimbas since mid 2015. They killed cubs and Lionesses and actually challenged the Matimbas up close and chased them. They also killed a male in the Manyelethi and has brawls with the Selati.They put the Thanda Impi Males into hiding. The first report of them in Londolozi, they chased 4 big males off a buffalo kill. The Birminghams then had a fight with the Selati in 2016. They beat them up and sent them north. They are also the number 1 suspects for who mauled ginger in 2016 because he was found mauled in Northern Londolozi and the Birminghams were at Elephant Plains with their own fresh wounds. They were agressive and actually pushed the Matimbas out, the Avocas entered a vacuum the Birminghams left behind. So I wouldnt compare the 2 takeovers to each other.
(10-07-2020, 11:14 PM)Gijima Wrote: The video I showed has evidence of a literally fight, and here's another video:
These aren't signs that the Avocas weren't challenged. They were challenged (sure half-heartily, I'm sure the BBoys could have put up a better fight if they didn't find new lands) but they did try to scare them away. That was my point and I don't think you can really argue with that.
Anyways, I'm glad both coalitions found their land and females and no one died. I think it's strange in a wildlife forum people sometimes glorify dead and dying over just survival and resilience (not that you guys do it on this thread but just in general). I never felt the need to "defend" any coalition but this idea that they were never in any risk was always silly to me.
Mfumo- Honestly this is just me speculating. Unless a male in his prime dropped dead in Mala Mala, in an area no one traverses, he must have gone somewhere else and gotten into a conflict. We will never know, he was one of my fav cats, and yeah... it's just my brain trying to make sense of something that will never make sense.
A finales de 2017 y principios de 2018, los Bboys abandonaron el Norte para extenderse. Todavía venían al norte de vez en cuando, pero en su mayoría se quedaron atascados hacia el sur hasta donde se veían en Lion Sands y Kirkmans Kamp al sur para ser vistos en Western Singita al oeste, así que realmente estaban dejando volar sus alas. Eso es casi todo Sabi Sands y en este tiempo persiguieron y empujaron fuera de los Matshipiri, los Avocas del Sur y según Mala Mala impidieron que el poderoso Mantimahle llegara más al norte, ya que fueron vistos empujando a Sabi Sands incluso siendo vistos con el Orgullo Kambula en ocasiones. Durante este tiempo, los N Avocas empujaron a Sabi Sand e hicieron una reclamación. 2 Bboys vinieron, Nsuku, Tinyo y luego Nhenha y de acuerdo con Safari Live en ese momento las pistas de Avocas fueron vistas dirigiéndose a los Manyelethi. Así que corrieron después de oír rugir a 3 Bboys. Los Bboys se quedaron en el norte por un tiempo y luego aparentemente se fueron al sur. Después de ese safari de vida silvestre lanzó ese video diciendo que los Bboys estaban de alguna manera heridos y podría haber habido una pelea. Bueno, no lo sabemos con seguridad. Por lo que sabemos Nhenha se enojó y los golpeó como siempre lo hace. ¿Y por qué los Birmingham tenían heridas y no los Avocas? ¿Realmente crees que 2 machos de primera calidad completamente adultos no van a golpear a los jóvenes inexpertos y se van a poner peor? Quiero decir que puedes ver lo que los Bboys se hacen el uno al otro, no hay manera de que no golpearan a los jóvenes. Sí, los Bboys trataron de empujarlos hacia el norte, pero para entonces ya estaban tan al sur y al oeste que no necesitaban hacerlo. Acaban de abandonar la zona. ¿También dijiste 1 orgullo? No, los Birmingham todavía se apareaban con los Kambula en ese momento y todavía se estaban extendiendo porque se apareaban con el orgullo de Mangheni y encontraban el Tsalala. Una vez más hay fotos de los Avocas después de la reaparición si Mfumo. ¿Realmente crees que pudieron haber matado a un hombre de primera y salir ilesos?
When you talk about the Avoca males running away after hearing the roars of the Birmingham boys, I am not very sure because there is a 56 minute video that you can hear the 2 coalitions having a roaring interaction, this roaring confrontation starts at minute 12:00, 16:00, 22:00 and 38:00
10-08-2020, 05:18 PM( This post was last modified: 10-08-2020, 05:21 PM by Slayerd )
(10-08-2020, 11:53 AM)titose Wrote:
(10-08-2020, 08:50 AM)Slayerd Wrote:
(10-07-2020, 11:14 PM)Gijima Wrote: The video I showed has evidence of a literally fight, and here's another video:
These aren't signs that the Avocas weren't challenged. They were challenged (sure half-heartily, I'm sure the BBoys could have put up a better fight if they didn't find new lands) but they did try to scare them away. That was my point and I don't think you can really argue with that.
Anyways, I'm glad both coalitions found their land and females and no one died. I think it's strange in a wildlife forum people sometimes glorify dead and dying over just survival and resilience (not that you guys do it on this thread but just in general). I never felt the need to "defend" any coalition but this idea that they were never in any risk was always silly to me.
Mfumo- Honestly this is just me speculating. Unless a male in his prime dropped dead in Mala Mala, in an area no one traverses, he must have gone somewhere else and gotten into a conflict. We will never know, he was one of my fav cats, and yeah... it's just my brain trying to make sense of something that will never make sense.
A finales de 2017 y principios de 2018, los Bboys abandonaron el Norte para extenderse. Todavía venían al norte de vez en cuando, pero en su mayoría se quedaron atascados hacia el sur hasta donde se veían en Lion Sands y Kirkmans Kamp al sur para ser vistos en Western Singita al oeste, así que realmente estaban dejando volar sus alas. Eso es casi todo Sabi Sands y en este tiempo persiguieron y empujaron fuera de los Matshipiri, los Avocas del Sur y según Mala Mala impidieron que el poderoso Mantimahle llegara más al norte, ya que fueron vistos empujando a Sabi Sands incluso siendo vistos con el Orgullo Kambula en ocasiones. Durante este tiempo, los N Avocas empujaron a Sabi Sand e hicieron una reclamación. 2 Bboys vinieron, Nsuku, Tinyo y luego Nhenha y de acuerdo con Safari Live en ese momento las pistas de Avocas fueron vistas dirigiéndose a los Manyelethi. Así que corrieron después de oír rugir a 3 Bboys. Los Bboys se quedaron en el norte por un tiempo y luego aparentemente se fueron al sur. Después de ese safari de vida silvestre lanzó ese video diciendo que los Bboys estaban de alguna manera heridos y podría haber habido una pelea. Bueno, no lo sabemos con seguridad. Por lo que sabemos Nhenha se enojó y los golpeó como siempre lo hace. ¿Y por qué los Birmingham tenían heridas y no los Avocas? ¿Realmente crees que 2 machos de primera calidad completamente adultos no van a golpear a los jóvenes inexpertos y se van a poner peor? Quiero decir que puedes ver lo que los Bboys se hacen el uno al otro, no hay manera de que no golpearan a los jóvenes. Sí, los Bboys trataron de empujarlos hacia el norte, pero para entonces ya estaban tan al sur y al oeste que no necesitaban hacerlo. Acaban de abandonar la zona. ¿También dijiste 1 orgullo? No, los Birmingham todavía se apareaban con los Kambula en ese momento y todavía se estaban extendiendo porque se apareaban con el orgullo de Mangheni y encontraban el Tsalala. Una vez más hay fotos de los Avocas después de la reaparición si Mfumo. ¿Realmente crees que pudieron haber matado a un hombre de primera y salir ilesos?
When you talk about the Avoca males running away after hearing the roars of the Birmingham boys, I am not very sure because there is a 56 minute video that you can hear the 2 coalitions having a roaring interaction, this roaring confrontation starts at minute 12:00, 16:00, 22:00 and 38:00
Like I said it was on Safari live. You can search it yourself. It was around March 22 or something like that. Both Brent Leo Smith and Tayla said it. They said tracks were seen heading into the Manyelethi and the Avovas were not seen since. I'm not sure what interaction is happening in this video because I hear distant calls but the Birminghams don't seem that interested in them. I mean the only reason they roared was because one got pissed the other sat on him. They were grooming and even freaking sleeping. This doesn't show behaviour of a challenge or territorial takeover. Also this was from the Djuma cam in Central Djuma, the core of Bboys northern territory at the time, so if they were being directly challenged in the core of their territory, I doubt the'd lazy around and actually roar back or confront the challenge. And this is behavior the Bboys show. When Tinyo heard the call of the Plains Camp Boys and immediately got up and ran to him. Nhenha apparently chased the Avoca males in the North recently according to James Tyrell and before anybody says no it was a mistake, James was asked afterwards if it was a mistake or really happened and he said it really happened but the pic was the wrong pic he chose. He apparently doesn't choose pics from the incident but any random pics of the coalition.
A very recent sighting of the Northern Avoca male #2 'Darkmane' with the Talamati pride again back at Tintswalo Safari Lodge
probably at the moment,one of the tallest lions in the Sabi Sands/Manyeleti,as per Neil Jennings he's much bigger than the Red road male
Manyeleti GR-Tintswalo Safari Lodge: Posted: 09/10/20.
credit: Tintswalo Safari Lodge(Youtube post).
Avoca Male Lions and Their Male Lineage
