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Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project
Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project
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Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project
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  (02-13-2019, 09:04 AM)Sanju Wrote:(02-09-2019, 10:38 PM)Pantherinae Wrote: Only fear is that the cats will clashWhat??? I’m not interested in the "VS" debate what’s so ever, what I asked is a legitimate and very important question when reintroducing another apex predator where one might already exist... So clam down, and with limited space they would be a problem for each other. And where did I say anything that could be about captive fights? I asked if the lions would be introduced, and stated my fear and concern, but I would also be happy to see them getting a new home. So I suggest, next time reply if you have an answer to the question in mind, or at least make sure you have read and understood what you are replying too.... (02-13-2019, 02:12 PM)Pantherinae Wrote: what’s so ever, what I asked is a legitimate and very important question when reintroducing another apex predator where one might already exist...This is not a break through question and neither new and unknown and among all it is not rocket science "Project", every body knows this including experts and biologists (not Gujarat people or experts though, I think I don't need tell the reason why...). Supreme Court took decision by taking "all" into consideration by experts years back. If you are further interested why the decision is taken by Justice of Supreme Court: Read the 2013 SC Judgement paper, addressing every issue and the reason. http://www.conservationindia.org/wp-cont...r-2013.pdf (02-13-2019, 02:12 PM)Pantherinae Wrote: and with limited space they would be a problem for each other. Nothing like Kuno is full of Tigers, They are sporadic with number 6 to 8 and most of them are using it as a corridor instead of permanent residence for now and ranthambore is 120 km away. Future situation after some decades if relocation happened: Even if their number increase in future, and after relocation, after some decades, if lions number increase, it's not that easy for lions to get to Ranthambore. Even if they got upto there, prey populations dynamics will adjust accordingly, as after sometime Tiger, Leopard and other carnivore population will slightly decrease and Lion population will increase until the dynamics reaches equilibrium based on the prey density and availability as another carnivore is added which is absent about for some century or so. Prey numbers if limited, carnivore population adjust to accommodate all and Finally reaches equilibrium due to Inter-specific competition. Nothing like limited prey and limited space. if they are limited then populations will be limited too but nothing earth shattering happens. In pre history, before human dominance, forests and prey are abundant, hence predator numbers are abundant, now they both of them limited hence, Lion and Tiger numbers will be limited in kuno. The reason they fight in captivity "if they kept in same place" is due to mental stress coz they are bounded and forced to live together and in some cases may be starved to attack each other etc.. In the wild, Tiger can escape when outnumbered by lion and avoids encounter.  (02-13-2019, 02:12 PM)Pantherinae Wrote: I’m not interested in the "VS" debate what’s so ever, what I asked is a legitimate and very important question when reintroducing another apex predator where one might already exist... To address your issue, i definitely agree that attrition will be the deciding factor in the long run. Although i have serious doubts that tigress with cubs will go into any kind of interaction with a whole pride (of 4-5 lionesses, otherwise the age of her cubs would come into play). If the dominant male tiger can pose enough threat for the pride-females to not feel safe raising cubs in a place, is the only scenario that come to my mind where the lions will keep away. If experienced coalition males choose to expand their borders i doubt a male tiger can confront them alone. But from what we see it's pretty hard to oust a tiger from a large territory. (02-13-2019, 03:00 PM)Rishi Wrote: To address your issue, i definitely agree that attrition will be the deciding factor in the long run. If the dominant male tiger can pose enough threat for the pride-females to not feel safe raising cubs in a place, is the only scenario that come to my mind where the lions will keep away.Definitely, the competition b/w predators or conflicts like predating on cubs/sick ones on either side to check each other numbers in a given area is universal, natural,normal and should occur b/w all predators around the world to coexist without competitive exclusion. nothing special in case of tiger-lion. (02-13-2019, 03:00 PM)Rishi Wrote: Although i have serious doubts that tigress with cubs will go into any kind of interaction with a whole pride (of 4-5 lionesses, otherwise the age of her cubs would come into play). If experienced coalition males choose to expand their borders i doubt a male tiger can confront them alone are you saying there are territories b/w lions and tigers or tiger-leopard or what ever and they invade each other? 
(02-13-2019, 02:58 PM)Sanju Wrote:Never called it a break through question either?(02-13-2019, 02:12 PM)Pantherinae Wrote: what’s so ever, what I asked is a legitimate and very important question when reintroducing another apex predator where one might already exist...This is not a break through question and neither new and unknown and among all it is not rocket science "Project", every body knows this including experts and biologists (not Gujarat people or experts though, I think I don't need tell the reason why...). Supreme Court took decision by taking "all" into consideration by experts years back. They will fight to outcompete the other animal, wildlife biologist does not have any idea how they will react to each other as there are basically no information about them interacting in the wild. A lion will kill a hyena no matter what, and it doesn't matter about how much food there is or how much space there is. and I don't say they will kill adults of one another, but steal the kill and kill youngsters, especially the species that turns dominat. And what you are saying is just not true, there are over 500 lions in gir I think even 600. There is not space for another large apex predator then. And pre history there was much more land for the cats...and they fight in captivity because they are put together, they are aggressive and very dominant species, not only because of stress. Trust me they will fight if they meet... If the tiger is trapped by a pride it would be killed, don't let those leopard videos fool you. That is to much risk for a small reward. The tiger would be treated as if it was another lion, and they would try all to kill the tiger. Same for a male tiger if he spots a lone lioness. That lioness would be in big trouble. (02-13-2019, 03:31 PM)Sanju Wrote:(02-13-2019, 03:00 PM)Rishi Wrote: Although i have serious doubts that tigress with cubs will go into any kind of interaction with a whole pride (of 4-5 lionesses, otherwise the age of her cubs would come into play). If experienced coalition males choose to expand their borders i doubt a male tiger can confront them alone Yep. Unlike with leopards or wolves with whom some degree of coexistance happens (still increasing tiger numbers in the reserves are pushing out leopards to the fringes), lions-tigers share the same prey niche. Space & resources being limited, just like Amur tigers push out wolves or Bengals do dholes from a region, these two are highly likely to see interspecies tension... maybe once numbers rise, maybe from first contact. We don't really have an idea about the threshold. They may or may not (hard to tell at this point) treat each other like tigers/lions as @Pantherinae suggests, like feral dogs/jackals/wolves often do, they even mate. All of us are just speculating. He could be right & you wrong. You're going to stop dismissing him like that. The grassland-forest thing is all theory too... But in reality you know well that Asiatic lions have nothing against dense jungle vegetation either. This is going to be a common sight whether Barda or Kuno.  *This image is copyright of its original author
@Rishi I know this and what you said is correct and I agree completely.
(02-13-2019, 04:47 PM)Rishi Wrote: Unlike with leopards or wolves with whom some degree of coexistance happens (still increasing tiger numbers in the reserves are pushing out leopards to the fringes), they share the same prey niche. I'm correcting that, these common things like these above^ are all are termed as "Competitive pressures" and of course this will occurs b/w Lion and Tiger in Kuno too, I never said no to that. but these are not ""Territorial disputes or fights"" which are interspecific that is these happen for mating rights b/w [lions-lions] or [tigers-tigers] not lions-tigers coz they don't interbreed naturally and no animal prefers to inter-breed with other species. There are no territories in b/w different species. Also, Just telling small things like: Tiger don't fight when outnumbered with other species like Dholes and lions and most of the time, the tiger based on situation retreats but if cornered, fights and fatalities may occur in b/w adults to decrease competition pressure, in the same way predation on infants on both sides occur to decrease competition. What I'm saying these all type of interactions are termed as "competitive interactions" not territorial disputes. Territorial disputes only occur b/w conspecies not with other species. "There are no territories in b/w different species". I'm agreeing with all but correcting the terminology. :) And if lions reintroduced in Kuno, nothing like both tiger and lions kill each other in single night coz most people are believing this, both will kill each other if "only Cornered" which happens very rarely in the wild because during per-interpritation, animals can estimate what animal they are facing, whether they can fight with or not? it is worth to fight or not? like things... if not necessary to fight/can't win fight, the inferior animal retreats from the sight of the superior one or gets chased away but killing each other only if happens when it can't escape during cornering or ambushing while sleeping, in those cases fatalities occur for sake of good and balance in predator ecology but will occur pretty rare because, most of the time, one of them "escapes" or "avoids" confrontation from the stronger one based on situation before by using all its senses like smell, hearing and sight. (02-13-2019, 04:23 PM)Sanju Wrote:I’m not calling them machines, it’s called apex predators and they will fight when put together to establish dominance..(02-13-2019, 03:47 PM)Pantherinae Wrote: They will fight to outcompete the other animal100 % true and agree. and they would know it’s a different species, but the treath level would equal another lion, and they would treat it as such. That’s the point. Like lions sometimes let brown hyenas go, but a spotted hyena is different the lions will always try to kill them, because it’s their main competitors. And don’t be stupid there is a big chance the lions could catch a tiger or a tiger to stalk upon a lioness.. they can kill and catch others from their own species and would do so with the other species. Lions have cornerd leopards, so have tigers. Than they can easily do that to eachother And it’s limited space and if there is an established lion population, with over a 200-300 lions it would be difficult for the tigers to have a established population as they would be greatly outnumberd and tiger cubs would have a very difficult time growing up. And you greatly underestimate the aggression of these animals. If they have an upperhand they will try to get rid of the competition at every chance they’re given.. And you can’t say they co existed before, because that is a totally different thing.. they had lots of space, with lions living in the open and tigers in the forrest. Now the lions will be happy with what they get and establish into the forrest, because the plains are almost gone. And that will force them into confrontations with eachother. You seem to also underestimate the impact killing of juveniles and cubs will have on a population, a coalition of male lions or a group of lionesses would be to much for any tigress to defend her cubs against and that is where the main problem is imo.
Lion-Tiger Interaction and coexistence in Kuno is typically and almost same as Spotted hyena- Leopard interaction and inter-specific Competition in Africa.
Spotted Hyena here is Lion i.e.., Social and dominating (most of the time) Leopard referred as Tiger i.e.., lone and dominating only in some cases like in one on one. Just an example.
Kuno will support all the 4 cats i.e.., Cheetah, Lion, Leopard and Tiger "But" in very small populations even at carrying capacity not large populations due to much predator diversity in only limited 1200 km2 area and prey density.
Most probably at max carrying capacity Kuno "may" hold approx, about 50-60 lions, 50 cheetahs, 30 tigers and about 70 leopards after many decades after both lion and cheetah reintroduction... Observe that, due to limited space and prey, population numbers are low due to maximizing threshold or carrying capacity of the Kuno environment, interspecific competition and predation b/w predators (Lion-Tiger, Tiger_Leopard, Tiger-Leopard etc..,) like @Pantherinae had said but there will be still a surviving population but less in number, and won't get competitive exclusion. But, If Kuno is given "only" to lions, it can hold about 250-300 lions in 1200 km2 but due to leopards, tigers, their population will be low along with others also low but there will be still a "separate distinct population" whether small or large. It's the main goal here to save Indian lions in Kuno Project... But Gujarat govt saying lions will be killed once by an army of tigers in kuno the next second they are reintroduced??? They have lots of other avigations to talk whatever they want but we have to think. (02-13-2019, 05:21 PM)Sanju Wrote: Lion-Tiger Interaction and coexistence in Kuno is typically and almost same as Spotted hyena- Leopard interaction and inter-specific Competition in Africa.Not even close at being similar.. Hyenas aren’t behaving in the same way cats are, they aren’t usually aggressive except when fighting for food, they might snach a smaller carnivore or cubs from the larger ones. Exceptions will occur when a injuried lion or leopard is targeted, but the hyenas will kill to eat. So if hyenas doesn’t see an oppertunity for food or gets provoked in other ways they will rarely attack the other predators. Also leopards can easially avoid hyenas by climbing trees. Hyenas do not hate leopards and without food to fight for, they can be seen walking side by side without aggression. Leopards will also hide cubs in trees and buches where they would be hard to reach for a leopard, same goes for Hyena pups which will be hidden in dens protected heavily by the clan. Lions and tigers on the other hand are both big and heavy neither are great climbers. They are similar buildt, only difference is that lions are social, and the tigers are bigger. They would hate one another intesely and at every oppertunity try to kill eachother. And they would have a difficulty shareing the same reserve. Tigeresses and cubs especially would be an easy target for a coalition of male lions. Lionesses will likely do better in groups.  (02-13-2019, 09:32 PM)Pantherinae Wrote:(02-13-2019, 05:21 PM)Sanju Wrote: Lion-Tiger Interaction and coexistence in Kuno is typically and almost same as Spotted hyena- Leopard interaction and inter-specific Competition in Africa.Not even close at being similar.. I still don't understand how hybrids haven't been seen in modern history? I find it unusual that a Tigress in heat hasn't come across a lone Male Lion looking for territory and proceeded to mate and produce cubs, it just seems like that scenario would happen if they did truly share jungle space throughout history. At least when looking at Captive situations we can see examples of this, even in parks like Everland where they both live together in numbers. I don't think it's nearly as likely with a Lioness and a Male Tiger though, since lioness are rarely seen alone. My guess would be that in areas where both shared habitat, Tigress would leave to another area before announcing and scent marking but that is only a hypothesis. (02-13-2019, 10:52 PM)Pckts Wrote:(02-13-2019, 09:32 PM)Pantherinae Wrote:(02-13-2019, 05:21 PM)Sanju Wrote: Lion-Tiger Interaction and coexistence in Kuno is typically and almost same as Spotted hyena- Leopard interaction and inter-specific Competition in Africa.Not even close at being similar.. I don’t know, but they would perhaps react differently in the wild and know who their rivals are, but you make a good point! And no I agree either the lioness would be in a group if alone I suspect a male tiger to go for the kill. I’m personally not sure about how they would actually go together in the same reserve.  |
w**!!!???? Every animal can recognize, its own species from other animal species. animals are not dumb and they do have eyes.
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