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Tiger-Lion Coexistence in Eurasia during late Pleistocene and Holocene Epochs

India Sanju Offline
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#1
( This post was last modified: 01-05-2019, 06:41 PM by Sanju )

This thread should be about the discussion of coexistence in b/w Lion and Tiger in Eurasian Wilderness in Late Pleistocene to Holocene's 19th century. Though they lived together only in small part of Europe continent i.e.., south-eastern Europe it is still a part of the continent.

Coexisted Ones:

  • In Late Pleistocene:- Tiger Subspecies like Wanhesian or Panthera tigris acutidens---------with Pleistocene Lion species like ancient ancestral primitive lion like Panthera leo precursor like Sinhaleyus subspecies; Panthera vereshchagini or Beringian Cave Lion and Panthera Spelaea (not fossilis).
  • In Holocene:- Tiger Subspecies like Amur; Bengal; Indochinese and Caspian tiger (all come under tigris or mainland subspecies)---------------with Modern/Holocene lion subspecies like Asiatic lion (Panthera leo persica/leo) and European lion (Panthera leo europea/leo).

These coexisted for over 50,000-30,000 of years preferring different habitats in the same Ecoregion and it is the major reason for the implementation of Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project to Madhya Pradesh’s Kuno and Rajasthan’s Sita, Khumbalgarh analogous to Yellow stone wolf reintroduction (apex predator) to restore ecological diversity and balance of open biomes.

In ecology, they are two types of Inter-species interactions in Animal communities which we can discuss here leaving others like Symbiosis, Mutualism, Parasitism etc...

1. Competition is one of the most ubiquitous of species interactions. It occurs any time a resource that is essential to growth and reproduction (e.g., food, shelter, nesting sites) occurs in short supply. The acquisition of the resource by one individual simultaneously deprives others’ access to it, and this has a negative effect on the fitness of individuals and the per capita growth rates of populations. Competition is thus an interaction that has mutually negative effects on the participants.

2. Coexistence results when populations of several species that utilize the same limiting resources manage to persist within the same locality. Competition exists b/w all species occupying and functioning in a niche. Coexistence, helps in reducing the effect of competition but can't extinguish it completely. Coexistence theory is a framework to understand how competitor traits can maintain species diversity and stave-off competitive exclusion even among similar species living in ecologically similar environments. Coexistence theory explains the stable coexistence of species as an interaction between two opposing forces: fitness differences between species, which should drive the best-adapted species to exclude others within a particular ecological niche, and stabilizing mechanisms, which maintains diversity via niche differentiation.

Strategy for Coexistence:
It is the same like other territorial animals mainly Carnivorous mammals.

Pack-Pack (Both Social): This is the most successful match up Lion-Dhole or Indian Wild Dog [in the past], Lion-Hyena (spotted/striped too sometimes forms clans), Lion- African Wild Dog, Brown Bear-Wolf, Hyena (spotted)-Wild Dog etc.., you name it.

Solitary-Solitary: This is least successflul most of the time the superior one eliminates inferior due to competitive exclusion or extinction (eg: Bear Dog-Daeodon, in case of predatory Dinosaurs competitions etc..,) Leopard-Cheetah, Leopard-tiger, Sloth Bear-Tiger, Black bear-Sloth bear, Brown bear-Black Bear, Puma-Jaguar, Spectacled Bear-Jaguar, Brown bear-Wolf, Tiger Shark-Great White, Lynx-Wolverine, Sun Bear-Tiger, Asiatic Black Bear-Tiger, Bear-Boar etc..., you name it.

Pack-Solitary: This combination is the one of the most successful like Tiger-Dhole, Lion-Leopard, Tiger-Wolf, Leopard-Wolf, Leopard-Wild Dog genus, Puma-Wolf, Sloth bear-Wolf, Sloth Bear-Wild Dog, Striped Hyena-Asiatic Lion, Cheetah-Wild Dogs, Hyenas-Cheetah, Orca-Great White, Lynx-Wolf, Wolverine-wolf, Striped Hyena-Wolf (Arabian mainly), Asiatic Lion-Wolf (past) are some of the examples of recent times and uncountable of such examples are there since Territorial animals evolution from Amphibians to Dinos to Birds and Mammals. Another Example is our discussion topic i.e.., Lion and Tiger coexistence or co-occurrence to avoid competitive exclusion.

Some of the animals particularly, Big cats are intelligent, they avoid unnecessary fights with other equally strong/more powerful animal species (except when the opposite animal type is inferior) at all costs which leads to injuries and sometimes death directly or indirectly due to infections of wounds occurred during brawls and damage to body parts bringing disability in either survival or hunting. They are extremely territorial towards conspecies. They do this to ensure the mating rights to ensure passage of superior genes and to avoid competition for resources which are limited in a given particular area i.e.., territory or home range.

Any animal species particularly predators see other predatorial species as threat/prey(most of the time it is less likely)/competitor for resources. So, the superior one eliminates the inferior when given chance and the inferior one avoids confrontation or conflict/fight with the superior at all costs and controls competition by killing the juveniles as the other side does to do the same. when threatened for life; it's off-spring or stealing food, the inferior one leaves when there is an escape but when there is no escape fight is inevitable but this scenario is almost impossible in wild. inferior ones that are sick or injured or juveniles on either side to minimize the competition. Animals are not killing or fighting machines they know their life value which is important to continue their own race. yes, competitive exclusion or extinction may happen of an inferior species in inter-specific competition in a particular region partially or entirely but mostly that is in the case of solitary-solitary type conflict or competition in the same niche in the ecosystem.

Tiger-Lion not even prefer to live in the same habitat of the same region even if sometimes overlapped the Lion pride and Tiger don't risk to fight and one of them back off or flee based on the situation. This is addressed by wildlife institute of India, NTCA, IUCN, World Wildlife fund and Wildlife trust of India and many of wildlife conservation bodies or organizations at the national and international level, nature conservationists, experts, modern biologists and scientists, researchers in documents and books to support reintroduction of lions.

Tiger didn't play literally any I mean any role in lion isolation to Gir it is the depleting arid habitats naturally and due to humans as humans settlements occur in arid regions as revenue lands (P.S. human civilization associated with water but not in modern times since technology development to utilize ground water) and killing spree of humans through hunting of both the keystone species of the same environment that is Lion and Cheetah of open environments which made the situation even worse for not only them but also other grassland species in decreasing their population resulting in local or sometime entire population extinctions due to ecological imbalance. Only, Indian Wolf remain as a keystone species for very little Indian grassland and scrublands ecosystems. It is also endangered and has only partial effectiveness in ecological functionality in maintaining herbivore population dynamics.

Lion and tiger don't fight for fun unlike in captivity, where the animals are starved and got no way to escape and avoid the fight but to fight until death. It's totally, different in the wild. Both succeeded to live together for thousands of years until 19th-century shortly after humans exterminated and separated them.

P.S. No "vs" information should be allowed in this topic. Provide further information regarding the once coexisted areas in Europe and Asian nations, history about it, evidences, coexisted species and subspecies, mechanisms or strategies of avoiding conflict, theory of coexistence etc..,
Opinions are welcomed in this thread... Lol
When Need turns to Greed, our Extinction happens, lol.
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United States brotherbear Offline
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#2

Now this ( post #1 ) is a good read Sanju.
 Grizzly  - Boss of the Woods.
        
  
             
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Finland Shadow Online
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(11-10-2018, 07:23 PM)Sanju Wrote: This thread should be about the coexistence between Pleistocene-Wanhesin tigers/ modern Holocene tigers like Amur/Bengal/Indochinese/Caspian tiger and Pleistocene species like ancient that is more primitive lion like Panthera leo/ Panthera vereshchagini or Beringian Cave Lion/Panthera Spelaea/modern Holocene lions like Asiatic lion(Panthera leo persica/leo) and European lion(Panthera leo europea/leo) in Pleistocene and Holocene Asia and South-eastern Europe.


These coexisted for over 50000-30000 of years preferring different habitats in the same ecoregion and it is the coexistence reason for the implementation of Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project to Madhya Pradesh’s Kuno and Rajasthan’s Sita, Khumbalgarh. Pack animals-Solitary animals coexist like Tiger-Dhole, Lion-Dhole in the past, Lion-Hyena(spotted/striped), Lion-African wild dog, Brown Bear-Wolf etc.., are some of the examples of recent times and tons of these examples are there since life origin. Animals particularly, Big cats are intelligent, they avoid fighting at all costs which leads to injuries and sometimes death directly or indirectly. They are extremely territorial. For Whom? for their own species. It's an Intra-specific aspect. They do this to ensure the mating rights and territorial dominance of their own species and competition for resources which are limited. Any animal species particularly predators see other predatorial species as threat/prey/competitor for resources. So, the superior one eliminates the inferior when given chance and the inferior one avoids confrontation or conflict/fight with the superior at all costs and controls competition by killing the juveniles as the other side does. when threatened for life or it's off-spring or feeding on killings, the inferior one leaves when there is an escape but when there is no escape fight is inevitable but this scenario is almost impossible in wild. inferior ones that are sick or injured or juveniles on either side to minimize the competition. animals are not killing or fighting machines they know their life value which is important to continue their own species. yes, competitive exclusion or extinction may happen of an inferior species in inter-specific competition in a particular region partially or entirely but that is in the case of solitary-solitary type conflict or competition in the same niche in the ecosystem. Tiger-Lion not even live in the same habitat of the same region even if sometimes overlapped the Lion pride and Tiger don't dare to fight and one of them back off or flee based on the situation. The direct evidence are the millions of examples of coexistence and Lion and Tiger coexisted in small part of Europe and much Asia. This is the truth and not my opinion but wildlife institute of India, NTCA, Wildlife fund trust and tons and tons of wildlife bodies or organizations at the national and international level, nature conservationists, experts, modern biologists and scientists, researchers and books. tiger didn't play literally any I mean any role in lion isolation to Gir it is the depleting mixed dry open deciduous forests, grasslands and killing spree of a psychopath ape of both the keystone species of the same environment that is Lion and Cheetah of grasslands are killed by humans which lead in decreasing their population and last in extinction. Only, Indian Wolf remain as a keystone species for very little Indian grassland ecosystems. It lead to collapsing the grassland ecosystem and the entire grasslands which are their habitats and gave no chance to recover due to their lack of habitats and then again human occupied most of that land. After that, since project Tiger 1973 the vacant gap in the collapsed ecosystem is occupied by Flora and Fauna of the forest ecosystem and the Tiger and Leopard are keystone species which protected and restored the forest ecosystem and spreading forests in place of grasslands and finally by start of this century the grassland ecosystem is the least and horribly decreasing environment in India, placing the grasslands ecosystem Flora and Fauna much extinct and many endangered like our herbivores like black buck, chausingha, chinkara and many though they can survive in both type of ecosystems, the tertiary predator is required for only one ecosystem for the stability. that's why the lion and cheetah reintroduction are proposed to restore all things to right. But, that is not going to happen because of political knots like corruption and money of Narendra Modi and his gang. Even though, even now!!!!!! too India has the capability to save Asiatic Cheetah and Lion from extinction in about ten years but filthy politicians are busy in killing them.

Lion and tiger don't fight for fun unlike in captivity, where the animals are starved and got no way to escape and avoid the fight but to fight until death. It's totally, 100% different in the wild. Both succeeded to live together for thousands of years until 18 or 19th-century human killed and separated them.

Opinions are welcomed in this thread... Lol
Well, it is difficult to see any reason, why these animals wouldn´t be able to live in same areas. balance would be easy to find if enough prey. People create often strange scenarios, but if there is enough prey, these animals should have no problem to co-exist.
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India Sanju Offline
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#4
( This post was last modified: 01-05-2019, 07:37 PM by Sanju )

(11-11-2018, 03:05 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(11-10-2018, 07:23 PM)Sanju Wrote: This thread should be about the coexistence between Pleistocene-Wanhesin tigers/ modern Holocene tigers like Amur/Bengal/Indochinese/Caspian tiger and Pleistocene species like ancient that is more primitive lion like Panthera leo/ Panthera vereshchagini or Beringian Cave Lion/Panthera Spelaea/modern Holocene lions like Asiatic lion(Panthera leo persica/leo) and European lion(Panthera leo europea/leo) in Pleistocene and Holocene Asia and South-eastern Europe.


These coexisted for over 50000-30000 of years preferring different habitats in the same eco-region and it is the coexistence reason for the implementation of Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project to Madhya Pradesh’s Kuno and Rajasthan’s Sita, Khumbalgarh. Pack animals-Solitary animals coexist like Tiger-Dhole, Lion-Dhole in the past, Lion-Hyena(spotted/striped), Lion-African wild dog, Brown Bear-Wolf etc.., are some of the examples of recent times and tons of these examples are there since life origin. Animals particularly, Big cats are intelligent, they avoid fighting at all costs which leads to injuries and sometimes death directly or indirectly. They are extremely territorial. For Whom? for their own species. It's an Intra-specific aspect. They do this to ensure the mating rights and territorial dominance of their own species and competition for resources which are limited. Any animal species particularly predators see other predatorial species as threat/prey/competitor for resources. So, the superior one eliminates the inferior when given chance and the inferior one avoids confrontation or conflict/fight with the superior at all costs and controls competition by killing the juveniles as the other side does. when threatened for life or it's off-spring or feeding on killings, the inferior one leaves when there is an escape but when there is no escape fight is inevitable but this scenario is almost impossible in wild. inferior ones that are sick or injured or juveniles on either side to minimize the competition. animals are not killing or fighting machines they know their life value which is important to continue their own species. yes, competitive exclusion or extinction may happen of an inferior species in inter-specific competition in a particular region partially or entirely but that is in the case of solitary-solitary type conflict or competition in the same niche in the ecosystem. Tiger-Lion not even live in the same habitat of the same region even if sometimes overlapped the Lion pride and Tiger don't dare to fight and one of them back off or flee based on the situation. The direct evidence are the millions of examples of coexistence and Lion and Tiger coexisted in small part of Europe and much Asia. This is the truth and not my opinion but wildlife institute of India, NTCA, Wildlife fund trust and tons and tons of wildlife bodies or organizations at the national and international level, nature conservationists, experts, modern biologists and scientists, researchers and books. tiger didn't play literally any I mean any role in lion isolation to Gir it is the depleting mixed dry open deciduous forests, grasslands and killing spree of a psychopath ape of both the keystone species of the same environment that is Lion and Cheetah of grasslands are killed by humans which lead in decreasing their population and last in extinction. Only, Indian Wolf remain as a keystone species for very little Indian grassland ecosystems. It lead to collapsing the grassland ecosystem and the entire grasslands which are their habitats and gave no chance to recover due to their lack of habitats and then again human occupied most of that land. After that, since project Tiger 1973 the vacant gap in the collapsed ecosystem is occupied by Flora and Fauna of the forest ecosystem and the Tiger and Leopard are keystone species which protected and restored the forest ecosystem and spreading forests in place of grasslands and finally by start of this century the grassland ecosystem is the least and horribly decreasing environment in India, placing the grasslands ecosystem Flora and Fauna much extinct and many endangered like our herbivores like black buck, chausingha, chinkara and many though they can survive in both type of ecosystems, the tertiary predator is required for only one ecosystem for the stability. that's why the lion and cheetah reintroduction are proposed to restore all things to right. But, that is not going to happen because of political knots like corruption and money of Narendra Modi and his gang. Even though, even now!!!!!! too India has the capability to save Asiatic Cheetah and Lion from extinction in about ten years but filthy politicians are busy in killing them.

Lion and tiger don't fight for fun unlike in captivity, where the animals are starved and got no way to escape and avoid the fight but to fight until death. It's totally, 100% different in the wild. Both succeeded to live together for thousands of years until 18 or 19th-century human killed and separated them.

Opinions are welcomed in this thread... Lol
Well, it is difficult to see any reason, why these animals wouldn´t be able to live in same areas. balance would be easy to find if enough prey. People create often strange scenarios, but if there is enough prey, these animals should have no problem to co-exist.

Yes, People often misinterpret fights in between male lions or male tigers over territory and mates in the wild and imagine same will happen if they both live in same area. They imagine this based on captive tiger and lion staged 'vs' matches published in Youtube which are unnatural in which predators have no way to escape and are starved to stress themselves, forced to battle.
Big cats are extremely territorial. Tiger and Lion can't communicate with each other like with their own kind by vocalizations or scent marking on objects by urine and face rubbing (Eg: A chimp can't communicate with a bonobo entirely). They can't convey messages to each other like something is their territory by roaring in their own style with different purposes/intentions like they do to communicate with their own individuals. It is because they are different species even the closest relative to lion i.e.., leopard can't communicate with lion by roaring or scent marking something to say that it belongs to its territory in the same way a distant relative of different lineage but same genus i.e.., tiger can't communicate with a lion saying or marking something as it's territory and fighting for that territory with a entirely different species is even impossible. A tiger don't care about leopard scent marks for an area. It only cares about other male and females tigers (i.e.., its own species communications).
Like in case of leopard-tiger interaction, if a tiger sees a leopard it chases away for some distance otherwise in the first only, leopard secures itself by avoiding confrontation before the tiger sees it. The tiger chases the leopard away not because it came into "it's" territory or it may mate with his/her females/males. It is because leopard may scavenge on tiger's kill in tiger's absence (Competition for resources or Kleptoparasitism) or to protect its cubs by chasing it away from the cubs scent as leopard can be a threat to its cubs when the tiger leave them and go for a hunt or other activity or over leopard population may lead to less prey availability to itself (Competition for resources).

It does apply to their own species members as territorial nature is intra-specific (conspecies) aspect not to other species like a lion don't bother a tiger around as it is not an intruder into its territory. Animals can find and recognize their own species from others and at the same time can differentiate other animals from their own kind. Big cats particularly are intelligent and to them, other predators are just another animal that may be categorised as prey/threat(very unlikely)/competitor. Mostly, big cat sees another predatorial species as competitor and threat depending on what it is. So they chase them away or sometimes kill them either juveniles/adults to keep resource competition in check. But they won't hunt and eat other inferior like meso predators (as it is dangerous and for other dietary reasons), leaving other prey animals like ungulates.

As they don't like to eat another predator meat unless there is no option when less prey available or starving (Ussuri brown bear-Amur Tiger in russian far east during prey scarce winter season).  Animals or Big cats particularly usually don't want to injure/die by themselves in fighting with equal or superiorly powered predator species unless there is a need. There is no need to fight between lion and tiger except to reduce competition as territory and mate aspects are not applicable. Things like Tiger is not as fast as lion so it may get caught and killed by a lion pride is not possible really because Tiger is not much less fast than a lion and sometimes even faster when considered on individual basis and Lion pride don't chase because neither there is no need to be worked, consuming energy which is essential for survival in wild nor tiger is a easy prey item to choose for hunt (eg: a solo hyena-lion pride interaction). Tiger won't risk going against a similar sized carnivore like lion on individual or group basis. If such situation occurs the weaker one submits by fleeing.

Tiger doesn't come in Lions habitat as it is more comfortable in denser regions whereas lion in open regions when given sufficient prey base. In buffer areas, predation may occur on both sides when an injured/sick/juvenile individual isolated and can't escape, or outnumbered leading to the death of inferior individuals as it is essential in nature to check the competition limited for limited resources. It is same as other inter-specific predator competition like leopard-lion,hyena-lion,dhole-tiger,leopard-tiger whatever you name it since, life birth.  There is no specialty in Lion-Tiger coexistence as they are not wwe fighters who get money to do so as people speculate sometimes things like tiger-hunter, lion-fighter. Some people materialize living things as real steel movie robots or warriors in hypothetical battles for fun and built to fight only leaving other things like food gathering and reproduction. It is natural survival out there, every animal has to take care of itself, live as long as it can and have a duty to continue and spread its race around the world. Is it difficult to a Lion gang to kill all the Nile crocodiles in the river by swimming like a jaguar with a pack? or a croc float to target a lion pride like doing to a buffaloes? They may do it sometimes rarely but neither of them considers each other as prey rather a dangerous opponent/competitor/threat. If they do either of them might have gone extinct now- just an example to say interactions in between carnivores/predators. It didn't because both of them avoid each other by backing down in such confrontations based on situation Every animal struggle for the basic needs.

Lion and Tiger (diff subspecies of tiger and species of the lion) did coexist from middle Pleistocene to late Holocene of Asia and Europe. I'm not sure that early Panthera leo (which has a subspecies-Sri-Lanka Lion (Panthera leo sinhaleyus)) coexisted for much long with the Bengal Tiger up to Srilanka which is regionally extinct including cheetah but not leopard (as in that time the climate is favourable with grasslands before India stated turning to forests spreading from eastern Asia) which is somewhat different from modern leo lived in India including and periphery which is first wave to occupy the subcontinent before Asiatic lion which is 2nd wave came after the the precedor's extinction but then after Bengal tiger and Asiatic lion coexisted for thousands of year except in southern India as lion didn't go that far as they didn't have that much time as modern civilized human started hunting for fun which before generations didn't do for in such celestial scale.


Big cats coexisted are:

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Like I said the last one the early leo which spread from Africa to Indian subcontinent from which the Srilanka lion differentiated and looked like the almost same might have lived very less time alongside Bengal and the Indochinese tiger after which they did the same with Asiatic Lion. Caspian with the Asiatic and European lion(almost as very very close to Asiatic lion). Wanhesian-spelaea and Beringian and after amur with the same lions.

Asia is the only continent in which 7 big cats (informal) coexisted.
Cheetah:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Leopard:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Snow Leopard:


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Clouded Leopard:

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Lynx:
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LION:

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*This image is copyright of its original author

Tiger:

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You can compare the overlapping areas/ranges with tiger and Lion and this is at the same time that is middle Pleistocene to late Holocene up to maybe 19th century or so..

So, India is trying to spread the lion and cheetah (Asiatic) and also Indian wolf keystone species to save continuously losing grasslands ecosystems, its fauna and flora from extinction.
When Need turns to Greed, our Extinction happens, lol.
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Finland Shadow Online
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#5

(11-11-2018, 05:44 PM)Sanju Wrote:
(11-11-2018, 03:05 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(11-10-2018, 07:23 PM)Sanju Wrote: This thread should be about the coexistence between Pleistocene-Wanhesin tigers/ modern Holocene tigers like Amur/Bengal/Indochinese/Caspian tiger and Pleistocene species like ancient that is more primitive lion like Panthera leo/ Panthera vereshchagini or Beringian Cave Lion/Panthera Spelaea/modern Holocene lions like Asiatic lion(Panthera leo persica/leo) and European lion(Panthera leo europea/leo) in Pleistocene and Holocene Asia and South-eastern Europe.


These coexisted for over 50000-30000 of years preferring different habitats in the same eco-region and it is the coexistence reason for the implementation of Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project to Madhya Pradesh’s Kuno and Rajasthan’s Sita, Khumbalgarh. Pack animals-Solitary animals coexist like Tiger-Dhole, Lion-Dhole in the past, Lion-Hyena(spotted/striped), Lion-African wild dog, Brown Bear-Wolf etc.., are some of the examples of recent times and tons of these examples are there since life origin. Animals particularly, Big cats are intelligent, they avoid fighting at all costs which leads to injuries and sometimes death directly or indirectly. They are extremely territorial. For Whom? for their own species. It's an Intra-specific aspect. They do this to ensure the mating rights and territorial dominance of their own species and competition for resources which are limited. Any animal species particularly predators see other predatorial species as threat/prey/competitor for resources. So, the superior one eliminates the inferior when given chance and the inferior one avoids confrontation or conflict/fight with the superior at all costs and controls competition by killing the juveniles as the other side does. when threatened for life or it's off-spring or feeding on killings, the inferior one leaves when there is an escape but when there is no escape fight is inevitable but this scenario is almost impossible in wild. inferior ones that are sick or injured or juveniles on either side to minimize the competition. animals are not killing or fighting machines they know their life value which is important to continue their own species. yes, competitive exclusion or extinction may happen of an inferior species in inter-specific competition in a particular region partially or entirely but that is in the case of solitary-solitary type conflict or competition in the same niche in the ecosystem. Tiger-Lion not even live in the same habitat of the same region even if sometimes overlapped the Lion pride and Tiger don't dare to fight and one of them back off or flee based on the situation. The direct evidence are the millions of examples of coexistence and Lion and Tiger coexisted in small part of Europe and much Asia. This is the truth and not my opinion but wildlife institute of India, NTCA, Wildlife fund trust and tons and tons of wildlife bodies or organizations at the national and international level, nature conservationists, experts, modern biologists and scientists, researchers and books. tiger didn't play literally any I mean any role in lion isolation to Gir it is the depleting mixed dry open deciduous forests, grasslands and killing spree of a psychopath ape of both the keystone species of the same environment that is Lion and Cheetah of grasslands are killed by humans which lead in decreasing their population and last in extinction. Only, Indian Wolf remain as a keystone species for very little Indian grassland ecosystems. It lead to collapsing the grassland ecosystem and the entire grasslands which are their habitats and gave no chance to recover due to their lack of habitats and then again human occupied most of that land. After that, since project Tiger 1973 the vacant gap in the collapsed ecosystem is occupied by Flora and Fauna of the forest ecosystem and the Tiger and Leopard are keystone species which protected and restored the forest ecosystem and spreading forests in place of grasslands and finally by start of this century the grassland ecosystem is the least and horribly decreasing environment in India, placing the grasslands ecosystem Flora and Fauna much extinct and many endangered like our herbivores like black buck, chausingha, chinkara and many though they can survive in both type of ecosystems, the tertiary predator is required for only one ecosystem for the stability. that's why the lion and cheetah reintroduction are proposed to restore all things to right. But, that is not going to happen because of political knots like corruption and money of Narendra Modi and his gang. Even though, even now!!!!!! too India has the capability to save Asiatic Cheetah and Lion from extinction in about ten years but filthy politicians are busy in killing them.

Lion and tiger don't fight for fun unlike in captivity, where the animals are starved and got no way to escape and avoid the fight but to fight until death. It's totally, 100% different in the wild. Both succeeded to live together for thousands of years until 18 or 19th-century human killed and separated them.

Opinions are welcomed in this thread... Lol
Well, it is difficult to see any reason, why these animals wouldn´t be able to live in same areas. balance would be easy to find if enough prey. People create often strange scenarios, but if there is enough prey, these animals should have no problem to co-exist.

Yes, People often think by imagining the fights between male lions fighting or (female-female;male-male;male-female) tigers fighting and applies the same to tiger-lion fight according to the youtube captive fights which are unnatural in which predators have no way to escape and are starved and forced to live together and communicate with other animal species is very limited even though they are of the same genus but still communication is intra-specific leading to stressful and unpleasant life for the captive animals merged together. Big cats are extremely territorial. It does apply to their own species members as territorial nature is intra-specific aspect not to other species like a lion don't bother a tiger around. Animals can find their own species from others and at the same time can differentiate other animals from their own kind. Big cats particularly are intelligent and to them, other animals are just another animal that may be categorised as prey/threat/competitor. Big cat sees another predatorial species as competitor and threat depending on what it is. As they don't like to eat another predator meat unless there is no option when less prey available or starving.  Animals or Big cats particularly don't want to injure/die by themselves in fighting unless there is a need. There is no need to fight between lion and tiger except to reduce competition as territory and mate aspects are not applicable. Tiger is not as fast as lion so it gets caught by a pride will be killed which is not possible because Tiger is not less fast than a tiger and sometimes even faster and Lion pride don't chase because there is no need to be worked, consuming energy which is essential for survival in wild and neither tiger is not a prey item. Tiger doesn't come in Lions habitat as it is more comfortable in denser regions whereas lion in open regions. Predation will occur on both sides when an injured/sick/juvenile individual isolated and can't escape, and outnumber leading to the death of inferior individuals as it is essential in nature to check the competition limited for limited resources. It is same as other inter-specific predator competition like leopard-lion,hyena-lion,dhole-tiger,leopard-tiger whatever you name it since, life birth.  There is no speciality in Lion-Tiger coexistence as they are not wwe fighters who get money to do so as people speculate sometimes things like tiger-hunter, lion-fighter. they do materialise living things as real steel movie robots in hypothetical battles for fun. It is natural survival out there, every animal has to take care of itself, live as long as it can and have a duty to continue and spread its race around the world. Is it difficult to a Lion gang to kill the Nile crocodiles in the river by swimming like a jaguar with a pack? or a croc float to target a lion pride like doing to a buffaloes? They may do it sometimes rarely but neither of them considers each other as prey. If they do either of them might have gone extinct now. just an example to say interactions in between carnivores/predators. They are not humans who have no fear to think about basic needs and can do anything for fun like extincting animals. Every animal struggle for the basic needs except most of us leading a way better life than a wild animal. Disclaimer: this is about survival. don't apply this to problems like getting educated, job, poverty like things in this aspect. every human has his own problems.

Lion and Tiger (diff subspecies of tiger and species of the lion) did coexist from middle Pleistocene to late Holocene of Asia and Europe. I'm not sure that early Panthera leo (which has a subspecies-Sri-Lanka Lion (Panthera leo sinhaleyus)) coexisted for much long with the Bengal Tiger up to Srilanka which is regionally extinct including cheetah but not leopard (as in that time the climate is favourable with grasslands before India stated turning to forests spreading from eastern Asia) which is somewhat different from modern leo lived in India including and periphery which is first wave to occupy the subcontinent before Asiatic lion which is 2nd wave came after the the precedor's extinction but then after Bengal tiger and Asiatic lion coexisted for thousands of year except in southern India as lion didn't go that far as they didn't have that much time as modern civilized human started hunting for fun which before generations didn't do for in such celestial scale.


Big cats coexisted are:

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Like I said the last one the early leo which spread from Africa to Indian subcontinent from which the Srilanka lion differentiated and looked like the almost same might have lived very less time alongside Bengal and the Indochinese tiger after which they did the same with Asiatic Lion. Caspian with the Asiatic and European lion(almost as very very close to Asiatic lion). Wanhesian-spelaea and Beringian and after amur with the same lions.

Asia is the only continent in which 7 big cats (informal) coexisted.
Cheetah:

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Leopard:

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Snow Leopard:


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Clouded Leopard:

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Lynx:
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LION:

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Tiger:

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You can compare the overlapping areas/ranges with tiger and Lion and this is at the same time that is middle Pleistocene to late Holocene up to maybe 19th century or so..

So, India is trying to spread the lion and cheetah (Asiatic) and also Indian wolf keystone species to ver and save losing grasslands ecosystems means saving its fauna and flora.

May I ask a little bit, that what is the main issue, that what you are wanting to discuss here? I think, that captive animals are meaningless to discuss, when issue is animal behavior. Those are all in unnatural environment there. But are you interested to get more information about co-existence of big cats in prehistoric times  or opinions about something? You asked about opinions, but I am not quite sure, that about what? :)
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India Sanju Offline
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( This post was last modified: 01-05-2019, 07:40 PM by Sanju Edit Reason: Remove unnecessary quoting )

(11-12-2018, 02:23 AM)Shadow Wrote: May I ask a little bit, that what is the main issue, that what you are wanting to discuss here? I think, that captive animals are meaningless to discuss, when issue is animal behavior. Those are all in unnatural environment there. But are you interested to get more information about co-existence of big cats in prehistoric times  or opinions about something? You asked about opinions, but I am not quite sure, that about what? :)

Yes, I already said captive animal behaviour is not in this. It's a complete different thing. I think you should read what i have written. I want to discuss here about the coexistence of the two big cats that is lion and tiger in prehistory. I don't know what are you and why are you saying about captive things when I am saying all these things in the wild.☺️
When Need turns to Greed, our Extinction happens, lol.
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Finland Shadow Online
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( This post was last modified: 11-12-2018, 09:40 PM by Shadow Edit Reason: Remove unnecessary quoting )

(11-12-2018, 07:59 AM)Sanju Wrote: Yes, I already said captive animal behaviour is not in this. It's a complete different thing. I think you should read what i have written. I want to discuss here about the coexistence of the two big cats that is lion and tiger from prehistoric time to 19th century. I don't know what are you and why are you saying about captive things when I am saying all these things in the wild.☺️
I was asking a little bit because you write very long paragraphs, or should I say long text without paragraphs and in that way you make it much more difficult to read and find main issues, what you want to discuss. Actually that is maybe one reason why after I read your second posting and you started with animal fights and captive animals, it got too big attention in my mind :) Subject is interesting, but obviously nothing to do with captive animals.

I didn´t mean to criticize the subject or anything. But you really write in a way, which isn´t the easiest one for the reader. Using paragraphs makes the text so much more clear and different subjects are easier to separate and comment, when reader can find easier different sections in text. Subject is interesting.
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India pateluday Offline
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Why would a tiger and lion co exists certainly not being prime predators there would be a territorial battle and deadly on as well. Albeit they both subscribe to different habitats there is a grand possibility of them encountering in scrub and dry deciduous torn types of forests. The habitat preference does limit the conflict but for sure some habitats would invite both species to visit and hence the conflict. These animal do not tolerate their own kind, lesser cats and leopards forget them being kind to each other.
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India Sanju Offline
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( This post was last modified: 12-31-2018, 12:08 PM by Sanju )

(12-31-2018, 07:48 AM)pateluday Wrote: Albeit they both subscribe to different habitats there is a grand possibility of them encountering in scrub and dry deciduous torn types of forests. The habitat preference does limit the conflict but for sure some habitats would invite both species to visit and hence the conflict.

You are right. For some extent, they may come in confrontation and it is the truth as they are not in fenced environments, they may come to each other's habitat. Particularly Tiger is more versatile when compared to Lion coz Lion "prefers" mostly arid zones. I think I mentioned about it in previous posts. When they meet in same area:

Quote:@pateluday

These animal do not tolerate their own kind, lesser cats and leopards forget them being kind to each other.

Quote:@pateluday 

Why would a tiger and lion co exists certainly not being prime predators there would be a territorial battle and deadly on as well.

"See" One thing I wanted to remind all here.
TerritoryIn ethology, territory is the sociographical area that an animal of a particular species consistently defends against conspecifics. Animals that defend territories in this way are referred to as territorial. Territoriality is only shown by a minority of species.

Here Lion and Tiger both are different Species and belong to different phylogenitic lineages of the same genera.

More commonly, an individual or a group of animals has an area that it habitually uses but does not necessarily defend; this is called the home range or territory. The home ranges of different groups of animals often overlap, or in the overlap areas, the groups tend to avoid each other rather than seeking to expel each other. Within the home range there may be a core area that no other individual group uses, but, again this is as a result of avoidance.

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See the territorial battle happens b/w two animals of same species to defend:
  • Food and Water resources, 
  • Nests and offspring, 
  • Mating opportunities,
It will be never a territorial fight/battle between lion and tiger. I don't know why people use this word territorial fight often (because it is famous?). This is called "Inter-specific Interaction" (you can't decide it as conflict before) arises due to "Inter-specific Competition" for same resources like food (prey in this case and in that too lion will prefer bigger prey to satisfy the pride as in lion home range, lions/per sq.km are more as they are social when compared to solitary tiger) and water too. This thing too will happen occasionally when any of the species either lion or tiger stray out of their habitat.

Conflicts (inter specific) occur due to one thing:
  • Competition for resources only.
The animals (Big cats and other territorial animals of different species when come in interaction) are called competitors. Like other territorial animals, Tiger don't want to mate with a female lion (which is another species unlike in captivity in which they are raised together to overcome the species differentiation knowledge and intraspecific behaviour of mating to create hybrids) and doesn't consider as Lion's territory as a tiger's territory coz it is a lion. Big cats are intelligent and not blind like all other animals. They can distinguish their own species from other types. A lions home range can have a leopard or hyena's (apex predator too) or a cheetah territory entirely or in overlap. It is nothing like a territory means an animal species thing in which no other animal can enter.

A Lion is not blind to see a predator like tiger, as a prey to chase with its pride. A tiger is not an inferior opponent has similar build and size. If they are of same size they will fight, even sometimes, one is bigger than other. But the problem here is they are different species. They don't to fight over females to mate.

(Although there are some millions of crores of inter specific competition and interactions examples since amphibians and carnivorous apex dinosaurs species like territorial animals time to age of mammals) For instance and convenience, I give a simple example:

Lion-Hyena (both can be called as apex predators): In this case, Lion is bigger and superior in some qualities. Did the spotted hyena extinct? No. why? it is because it strengthens by living in clans (n>lion pride) as a defense strategy. The same goes to lions as they do so to live efficiently in savanna mode of ecosystem. The wild dog group individuals number is even more indication as the predator size in savanna decreases it is becoming more social as defense, to hunt and live efficiently.
Now some points:
1. Hyena (spotted) speed: around 60 km/hr
2. Lion speed: around sometimes 80 km/hr

Can't lions demolish whole hyena species if they want? will the lions try to chase a hyena clan, separate a hyena from clan, and kill it? It may happen in exceptional and extreme cases. It won't happen mostly even Lion can hunt buffalo herd like giants coz Hyena is not a prey (it is also predator, difficult to tackle as strong opponent even as single too in which lion may be injured to give a disability for its survival, as it is tertiary consumer so may not have essential nutrients/taste,etc..,).

They may eliminate each other like all other competitions existing in the world (whats so special? coz it is lion and tiger? which are super beings having special powers?) like sick/injured/disabled etc.., ones are cornered and surrounded without any giving any chance of flee or escape to run. They will certainly kill it or if sub adult/juveniles are seen without any protection. They do so to eliminate too much competition for resources like food and water.

Similar like these cheetah benefits from speed to avoid interspecific conflicts with larger prey/predators. A leopard does the same thing by climbing trees. Wild dog pack has strength in packs and has more endurance than lion. sometimes, lions don't even bother black backed jackals around them. Cant they kill them? They don't coz it is not about fun. It is about survival in the harsh wilderness, every animal should take care of itself, should pass on its progeny, defend for itself, gather food for its own kind etc.., these type of important things are there for every animal of them. Every calorie of Energy matters. It is universal for all animals.

What I'm trying to say is.... Tiger is not a prey for lion and vice versa, They are different species prefer different habitats. Even though they come in contact rarely. They will avoid each other and they did avoid each other. Here Lions strategy is group as defense so the tiger avoids it, Tiger strategy is avoiding confrontation by fleeing (if they meet), its size, it is not considered as a prey/competition for mating rights to waste energy fighting and chasing on it, it is not a nomad male to defend for its mate and offspring. It is just a competitor for lions like a leopard passing by.

If we just remove Lion vs tiger internet fights, considering animals as kings and queens and most importantly, animals as machines/robots like in real steel built to fight for fun like in captivity and staged fights, We will then understand why researches are saying Lion and tiger coexisted for thousands of years in the same region not necessarily same food chain or habitat. The situations are different out there in the wild, it is all about survival. It is not an enclosure, every animal has to do all for itself in the wild.

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This will happen only in captivity Like
They don't do anything for fun like fighting with another species kind in which either sides have no use (they can recognize other species from their own) of defending mating opportunities/offspring but both sides will sustain mortal injuries (detrimental) as both lion and tiger are similar sized which will be a big blow and disability for survival to hunt. They play only during infant or juvenile stage for fun in which in that too they do so to improve and sharpen/prowess their skills which are helpful when they become adults.
Thank you.
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seems like they don't really have a preferred habitat,but rather seek areas where potential prey roam,which are mainly herd animals..won't find many tigers or any lions in areas with say only hog deer or muntjac
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India Sanju Offline
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(12-31-2018, 02:23 PM)Rage2277 Wrote: seems like they don't really have a preferred habitat,but rather seek areas where potential prey roam,which are mainly herd animals..won't find many tigers or any lions in areas with say only hog deer or muntjac
I agree with you but I'm replying this just because you said this "seems like they don't really have a preferred habitat". They do have a preferred habitat. A tiger don't want to live in a desert and a Lion don't want live in a Ever green Tropical Rain Forest. They may live based on abiotic and biotic factors (may or may not be successful to survive it depends on various things though) but I'm saying "prefer".

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https://web.archive.org/web/201203101741...ENTID=8073

Pocock thought that it was unlikely that serious competition between them regularly occurred, and that even if Indian lions and tigers met, the chance that they would fight for survival was as good as the chance that they would choose to avoid each other, and that their chances of success, if they were to clash, were as good as each other's.

https://archive.org/stream/PocockMammali...1/mode/2up

Tigers requires more water and drinks water daily when compared to lion. They evolved for their own environment and habitat and specialized their coats according to the cover and surroundings of their habitat to camouflage, ambush, stalk and hunt their game. So yes, they have preferred habitat
When Need turns to Greed, our Extinction happens, lol.
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( This post was last modified: 01-02-2019, 11:49 AM by Rage2277 )

karanth said pretty much what i said "their distribution seems to be determined primarily by the availability of large prey rather than by vegetation types" also tigers don't require water any more than lions do..they're not like elephants that need to drink everyday,they get moister from their prey..we know they're both highly adaptable if huge pack hunting carnivores like lions that need alot of meat can live in an area like kgalagadi tigers can easily thrive there being able to tolerate high temperatures themselves @Sanju
"ssshhh...listen to the rain"...
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( This post was last modified: 01-05-2019, 12:17 AM by Sanju )

(01-01-2019, 10:15 PM)Rage2277 Wrote: karanth said pretty much what i said "their distribution seems to be determined primarily by the availability of large prey rather than by vegetation types" also tigers don't require water any more than lions do..they're not like elephants that need to drink everyday,they get moister from their prey..we know they're both highly adaptable if huge pack hunting carnivores like lions that need alot of meat can live in an area like kgalagadi tigers can easily thrive there being able to tolerate high temperatures themselves @Sanju
I heavily agree with the last sentence in particular @Rage2277 . It is a fact. Apart from that...

Karanth Said that in their habitats, Tigers "prefer prey densities over vegetation to live or establish territories and home ranges". It means... for instance, say, in a forest, prey is abundant in open grassy areas of that ecoregion, then tiger prefers inhabiting in that region even if it has dense jungle environment in other parts of territory to provide hide and well camouflage in the same ecoregion zone coz it didn't has much prey. Even it has best habitat and cover to live, if food is not available it can't live there.

It doesn't mean tiger prefers a desert (low vegetated) to live if that area has 1000's of prey ungulates per sq.km.

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Saw this? this is kutch of Gujarat. It has Asian wild ass. A good prey in good density in Holocene and Pleistocene. But tiger didn't inhabitate there. coz it's body looks like that above^. Almost negligible chance to camouflage and water scarce climate (it can tolerate heat but its not a camel to live without water). and then there is this lion's range...

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The same Kutch, or take desert if you want more intensity...

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even desert environment suits a lion to camouflage where ever you take throughout Africa and west Asia to India.
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Perfect if crouched and excellent camouflaged plain coat without spots or stripes easily blend in environment of tropical arid to semi arid climates and habitats. (eg: Namibian, Palestine and Persian  desert lions etc..,)






That how much Lion camouflage in open plains...
A Tigers stripes are to breakdown outline in their vegetated habitats like grasslands, woodlands, forests, sloped and hilly terrain and jungles with semi arid to non arid areal range. Without vegetation/cover hunting is almost impossible and tiger can't do the leopard stuff of pouncing from tree to hunt (sorry this is plain and desert habitats it don't even has grass, how can we expect trees, lol). The most arid area in the world modern tiger living is Ranthambore with almost semi arid environment. That's all.

It doesn't suit and live in tropical arid low vegetated areas like deserts, plains, steppes etc.., I said all this for you said prefer. solitary lifestyle is also a disadvantage in that type of environments where social behavior is required to increase survival chances in hunting, cub rearing and defense against other pack predators.

Quote:"tiger was tied closely to water sources, prey, and their adjacent tugai habitat of tall riparian vegetation."- https://www.researchgate.net/publication...is_a_tiger


Throughout the evolution of Tiger, it didn't live in Tibetan plateau area coz it has Gobi desert. Tiger evolved as versatile predator throughout Eurasian tropical, temperate regions interlinked with semi arid and non arid regions like wet lands and jungles. It didn't live in Arid regions like lion or particularly cheetah does. open environment ungulates evolved faster as it has less vegetation to obstruct their speed limits when compared to forest associated prey animals and it's carnivores. so tiger has to rely even more on ambush in an area with low vegetation to provide camouflage like open plains.


Quote:Tiger chooses areas near water bodies (like human civilization) and drinks water for every 2-3 days after a full meal after a successful hunt to feed. The tiger occupies a wide range of habitat types, but will usually require sufficient cover, proximity to water, and an abundance of prey. It prefers dense vegetation, for which its camouflage colouring is ideally suited, and where a single predator is not at a disadvantage compared with the multiple cats in a pride. - Miquelle, D. (2001). "Tiger". In MacDonald, D. The Encyclopedia of Mammals (2nd ed)


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Tigers are comfortable in water and frequently bathe

Quote:It is a strong swimmer and often bathes in ponds, lakes and rivers, thus keeping cool in the heat of the day (Hydrophilic).- Sunquist, M.; Sunquist, F. (1991). "Tigers". In Seidensticker, J.; Lumpkin, S. Great Cats.

(pls, don't make this silly by comparing it to camel or elephant, I compared it with the arid cat lion). Tiger and Lion are not the same, they evolved for their environments specially in different phylogenetic lineages.

They both may have evolved further like Tiger in deserted or low vegetated areas like steppes, fully open plains with nil vegetation like kutch and lion evolving into the India and Congo deep jungles in future by changing their coats to camouflage which helps in stealth attacks/ambush or stalk prey of that regions respectively through natural selection. But their range expansion stopped since, late holocene in which human impact started showing on them (literally all animals significantly) by over hunting, climate change and habitat degradation by humans. They may not evolve for that habitats in future too coz first they should be alive till then. They will go extinction and be wiped out in few centuries by humans based on current population losing rate.


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https://books.google.co.in/books?id=T37sFCl43E8C&lpg=PP1&pg=PA825&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false


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There were no tigers in lesser Arabian nations coz it has deserts of Arabian peninsula. They only lived in temperate (upper) central Asia and south eastern Europe due to availability of their habitats i.e.., forests and grasslands but didn't spread other areas like lesser Arabian peninsula further from pak's Baluchistan deserts, Tibetan plateau etc.., The same goes for lion, deserts are not much a barrier for lion but jungles (didn't say forest) are their barrier and hence, their further extension into china, south east Asia, eastern India and ghats of South India was restricted due to presence of south east Asian jungles.

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An animals/prey having 2 simple type of eyes (even if color blind/compound eyed) can easily see that big beast (lion) in that greenery due to the unmatched color coat and no spots/striped hide/fur to divide the outline. as an plain habitat related species evolved with more speed to hunt fast game compared to vegetated environment prey. like in the case of tiger, lion has to rely on ambush than chase or speed in an area where it's camouflage does not work in the surrounding greenery coz vegetation offers resistance for high speed chases
Even though massive prey animals live and available  in great densities in places like Deserts and ever green forests, A tiger and lion can't live or most importantly "prefer" in that environments or habitats respectively. they may live in those habitats, tolerate temperatures and climatic conditions but can't hunt their properly to sustain themselves and survive. lion social behavior in this terrain is a draw back as co ordination during hunting fails in this environment. You misunderstood what karanth said. Best wishes Like
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According to the following authors, lions and tigers, whether modern or prehistoric, did indeed coexist, or at least co-occur in Eurasia:

1) Craig Packer (https://cbs.umn.edu/research/labs/lionresearch/faq): the Asiatic lion (Panthera leo leo according the the Cat Specialist Group's 2017 classification (https://repository.si.edu/bitstream/hand...sAllowed=y), formerly Panthera leo persica) and Bengal tiger (Panthera tigris tigris) in "many parts of India until the end of the 19th century, but today Asiatic lions are restricted to the Gir Forest in Gujarat State of western India—an ecosystem without tigers. A controversial proposal to translocate Gir lions to Kuno Palpur in Madhya Pradesh has been delayed, partly because of fears that tigers living in Kuno would kill the incoming lions. Only a few 19th century reports are available of wild lions fighting with wild tigers, and it is unclear if one species regularly defeated the other. Many fights were staged between captive lions and tigers during the first decades of the 20th century, and some of these are posted on YouTube. However, the outcomes are difficult to interpret because so little information is available about the contestants (e.g., sex, age and prior experience). Several clips show fights pitting a subadult or female tiger against a full-grown male lion; others show subadult male lions against adult tigers."

Asiatic lion 'Devaraj' in Devaliya Safari Park, a satellite of Gir Forest National Park in the Kathiawar-Gir dry deciduous forests' ecoregion of northwest India, which also includes the tiger areas of Ranthambore and Sariska in Rajasthan and Kuno Wildlife Sanctuary in Madhya Pradesh (where lions were supposed to have been translocated to): https://www.worldwildlife.org/ecoregions/im0206





Bengal tiger at Ranthambore:




2) Pocock (https://archive.org/stream/PocockMammali...1/mode/2up), who rubbished the idea that Indian tigers were responsible for the near-extinction of the Asiatic lion, for reasons like that lions were in places where the Bengal tiger wasn't recorded, like Southwest Asia.

3) Heptner and Sludskiy (https://archive.org/stream/mammalsofsov2...6/mode/2up) said that in the past, the ranges of the lion and tiger often overlapped, that 2 Caspian tigers caught in southwestern Tajikistan harboured tapeworms of the species Taenia bubesei, which was also recovered from the African lion (interestingly), and aside from that both Asiatic lions and Bengal tigers are in India (and that lion's range extended to the Bengal), they mentioned the following places as having both Asiatic lions and Caspian tigers: Anatolia (Asian Turkey), Iran, the tugai forests of the Trans-Caucasus (Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia), and that the lion possibly occurred in Afghanistan and Central Asia, particularly what is now Turkmenistan on the border with Iran, and the banks of the Amu Darya, which were definitely tiger areas, Pages 82202: 

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Skin of Shirea that Persian lioness, brought to Dublin by King Edward VII in 1902, at the National Museum of Ireland in Dublin: https://www.museum.ie/The-Collections/Do...an-Lioness

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Young lion in Iran photographed by Antoin Sevruguin in circa 1880, adapted from http://collections.si.edu/search/detail/...nline=true

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Caspian tiger in northern Iran, early 1940s: http://www.tigers.ca/Foundation%20overview/caspian2.htm

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A Persian tiger which invaded Georgia: http://kavehfarrokh.com/heritage/the-las...n-georgia/

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The Araks River on the border of Azerbaijan and Iran, where Heptner and Sludskiy said that both lions and tigers occurred: https://www.flickr.com/photos/australian...5194351616

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The national park of Absheron Peninsula on Azerbaijani coast of the Caspian Sea, again, Heptner and Sludskiy pointed to both being here: http://visitbakuazerbaijan.com/visit-bak...-park.html

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4) Sir James Abbott wrote in the 19th century that the lion and tiger were in the region of 'Khaurism' (https://www.wdl.org/en/item/17720/view/2/342/). According to Meyer (https://archive.org/stream/journalofbomb...6/mode/2up), Khaurism is a region between Afghanistan and the Caspian Sea, so 'Khaurism' appears to be 'Khwarezm', an oasis region along the Amu Darya in Central Asia, which includes parts of Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan, which would support Heptner and Sludskiy's assumption that the lion was indeed there.

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Dr Meyer as quoted by Kinnear: https://archive.org/stream/journalofbomb...6/mode/2up

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5) Massetti (https://zookeys.pensoft.net/articles.php?id=2126) said that both the Asiatic lion and Caspian tiger were in Syria.

6) Look at this Middle Eastern book from the 17th century on display at the Harvard Art Museum: https://www.harvardartmuseums.org/art/216239

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author


7) Yamaguchi et al., suspected that the the social structure of the Upper Pleistocene Eurasian cave lion (Panthera leo spelaea or Panthera spelaea), similar to modern lions, had an impact on other predators, including the tiger: https://zslpublications.onlinelibrary.wi...6904005242

Spartak, one of the frozen cave lion cubs found in Yakutia, Russian Far East, this makes me wonder if there are also frozen tigers in this region: https://siberiantimes.com/science/casest...f-yakutia/

*This image is copyright of its original author


The Wanhsien tiger (Panthera tigris acutidens) of China: https://www.scribd.com/doc/201368987/Val...eet#scribd

*This image is copyright of its original author
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India Sanju Offline
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#15

about #14 post: Great Findings...
When Need turns to Greed, our Extinction happens, lol.
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