Asian Wild Water-Buffalo (Bubalus arnee)

[Pckts]

Also, from what I remember about Kanha, it doesn't have gigantic watering holes and I assume like their name suggests, these guys prefer lots of Water.  Kanha is also a lot more hilly, which I'm not sure is a preference for Water Buffalo. I'm sure I'm not presenting any new information to the people that run the show, it's just a bit curious to me. @Rishi what's your take on this? Reply

[Jimmy]

Interesting news, so there should be enough reason to think why those buffaloes from Madhya Pradesh are hardground variety, it is pretty clear that these areas are not as swampy as those from Assam, even Barasingha I remember are hard ground variety in Kanha unlike those from Terai or Assam which are more broad footed and swamp oriented. Likewise there could possibly be morphological differences between swamp oriented Assamese buffaloes and hard ground central Indian ones in hooves for example, it will be good if they can make it but doesn't look like ideal habitat to me, water buffalo as far as I know are almost rhino like in their preference for georaphy, habitat and feeding. Kanha will present some challenges to The translocted Assamese buffaloes in this respect but after some generations I think they can get habituated to living in dry hard ground since water buffalo seem to adjust well for examples are srilankan types water buffaloes that have thrived in arid environment, also feral buffaloes northern Australia and in Komodo island, so there is hope. But I feel since it is central India they should have prioritized central Indian hard ground wild water buffaloes for translocation, this should be taken as a long run investment for the sub-species survival since once done they cannot look back, hybridizing two types of sub-species isn't an option and they should see the wild water buffaloes as not just another prey species and as a sensation for the park, at the moment it feels like that Reply

[Rishi]

(10-16-2018, 09:40 PM)Pckts Wrote: Also, from what I remember about Kanha, it doesn't have gigantic watering holes and I assume like their name suggests, these guys prefer lots of Water.  Kanha is also a lot more hilly, which I'm not sure is a preference for Water Buffalo. I'm sure I'm not presenting any new information to the people that run the show, it's just a bit curious to me. @Rishi what's your take on this?

Link: My map on habitations of Water Buffaloes in Indian sub-continent, with details on individual populations

Water buffalos that lived there & is the state animal of Chhattisgarh, are the "hardground" variety or Bubalus arnee arnee (RED) while the ones in Assam are swamp variety or Bubalus arnee fulvus (BLUE). However the ones living in Terai of Nepal are apparently hardground too, @Jimmy knows better than me.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

But presently their numbers are critically low in Central India.In the 1980s there were fewer than 100 in Madhya Pradesh and by 1992 this number dropped to 50. Current estimates put their number at around 200 (or lower) in Maharashtra and Chhattisgarh.

They are only found in limited pockets, the Udanti-Sitanadi, Barnawapara (dozen each) & Indravati (few dozens) TRs of southern Chhattisgarh, are the last strongholds. With the region being gripped by militant insurgency for last few dacades (might take another to be completely sanitised) wildlife in the region was left to fend for themselves.
There's a Central India Wild Buffalo Recovery Project carrying ex-situ & in-situ breeding but the population is far too low to ensure genetic diversity! (Updates & photos on Udanti breeding)


But due to extreme remoteness of the area some may have survived, we don't really know where... or how many. In recent years some herds were identified in Gadchiroli district's forest of Maharashtra, migrators from Chhattisgarh. During tiger estimation they were sighted too & numbers seem to have increased.

As other populations of Central India are in shambles themselves, there is no other option but to source them from Assam. Not only Kanha, but Barnawapara is supposed to recieve buffloes from Manas as well. Otherwise i doubt the fact that they are technically different subspecies was overlooked.
The ones living in Nepals Kosi Tappu Wildlife Sanctuary (430) being relocated to Chitwan National Park (15) should definitely be better candidates. If India gave Kazi rhinos to Nepal instead, recieving buffalos for MP, that would be best! Reply

[Jimmy]

Thanks @Rishi,  yup that's a nice perspective, Nepal lacks rhino's in several of it's lowland reserves and could really speed of recovery if it was to get several rhino's from kaziranga likewise, Kanha and other central Indian reserve could take some hard ground water buffaloes from Nepal's koshi reserve it would also be great for maintaing diverse Gene pool. Reply

[Rishi]

Rare footages of wild buffalo in Chhattisgarh state of Central India.

Reply

[Jimmy]

Mine yesterday’s pic and Video of wild water buffalo from Kathmandu zoo

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

The herd bull was quite a young specimen and a new addition from Koshi Tappu reserve since the previous dominant bull was sent to Chitwan for rewinding, all the females are calves of the lead female which must be quite old by now, to my knowledge I have seen no less than six calves(3 sent to Chitwan and these 3 now) already produced by her and I don’t know if she is still fertile to produce more, at one moment the young bull tried to court her but he was clearly not suprior enough to engage in a short tussle, the cow still nudged him in a dominant manner to wander off. Reply

[Sanju]

Fighting technique:

(click to play the video) Reply

[Jimmy]

(01-09-2019, 12:22 PM)Sanju Wrote: Fighting technique:

(click to play the video)

Second fight was between a long horned individual-07 against short horned individual -03, pretty interesting matchup Reply

[Sanju]

@Jimmy  this Asian buffalo match is more action packed than Cape buffalo fights... may be because of those long horns. They are able to lift and toss each other up. That moment was amazing. Those sharp and curved horns are very destructive to their mucular necks during pitting. Reply

[Jimmy]

(01-09-2019, 07:49 PM)Sanju Wrote: @Jimmy  this Asian buffalo match is more action packed than Cape buffalo fights... may be because of those long horns. They are able to lift and toss each other up. That moment was amazing. Those sharp and curved horns are very destructive to their mucular necks during pitting.

The most action packed fighting for now i think belongs to yaks, their horn is absolutely designed to catapult and the fact that the terrain itself is quite unforgiving with cliffs and falls which makes their fight thrilling, with cape buffaloes- the one video with one of the buffalo loosing it's horn is quite awesome as well- they are designed for more interlocking and throwing the opponent from the side hooking. Water buffalo dosn't have dramatic tightly curled horns like cape and like in your video they are involved in serious twisting and the reaping motion of their long horns produce so much cuts on the back of the neck probably this area is reinforced to counter this strategy, i ve see very graphic footage of  horns going deep on the flanks and unable to dislodge, those long curved horn once enters it enters deep, these fights in Vietnam and Thailand are controversial as animal cruelty on the other hand there is cultural aspect involved in it, if not for these festivals we would frankly not see a powerful specimen of domestic water buffaloes at all

*This image is copyright of its original author

Reply

[Spalea]

@Jimmy :

About #70: I believe this man, on the photo you show, would be unable to do the same thing with a Cape African buffalo, simply because the African buffalo's horns are more curved, shorter but more massive (wider). Thus, the man's hands would be closer to the neck/spinal column axis. Therefore the bovid would have much more strength to throw him... Even if the water buffalo's dimensions can be larger.

The fact that their horns are longer allows the man to hold them further from the neck/spinal column axis. But is this water buffalo, seeming very powerful, domestic or wild ? 


Nevertheless water buffalos are very impressive animals ! Reply

[Jimmy]

(01-10-2019, 04:16 PM)Spalea Wrote: @Jimmy :

About #70: I believe this man, on the photo you show, would be unable to do the same thing with a Cape African buffalo, simply because the African buffalo's horns are more curved, shorter but more massive (wider). Thus, the man's hands would be closer to the neck/spinal column axis. Therefore the bovid would have much more strength to throw him... Even if the water buffalo's dimensions can be larger.

The fact that their horns are longer allows the man to hold them further from the neck/spinal column axis. But is this water buffalo, seeming very powerful, domestic or wild ? 


Nevertheless water buffalos are very impressive animals !

This theory reminded about my science class at school which I had never thought of, kind of like force farther from fulcrum will be more efficient at cracking nut kind of thing you are talking about lol. However this buffalo is tamed, if it was a wild one mere human force is absolutely no match he could never manipulate the head of that beast by controlling horns absolutely not, buffalo lifts another buffalo on the tips of one horn so humans are no comparison, naturally short horned animal should generate more force for tossing eg bison. However this analogy is somewhat one sided as there are also other bio mechanics like muscle mass to withstand the strain of extra weight of horns, types of muscles, flexibility to consider, as we have seen from prehistory there were pelorovis and longhorned bison that had the biggest horns and it worked for them. So again cape buffalo would have certainly thrown the puny human in the air, as does water buffalo if it did not want to oblige.

Reply

[Shadow]

(01-10-2019, 06:56 PM)Jimmy Wrote:

(01-10-2019, 04:16 PM)Spalea Wrote: @Jimmy :

About #70: I believe this man, on the photo you show, would be unable to do the same thing with a Cape African buffalo, simply because the African buffalo's horns are more curved, shorter but more massive (wider). Thus, the man's hands would be closer to the neck/spinal column axis. Therefore the bovid would have much more strength to throw him... Even if the water buffalo's dimensions can be larger.

The fact that their horns are longer allows the man to hold them further from the neck/spinal column axis. But is this water buffalo, seeming very powerful, domestic or wild ? 


Nevertheless water buffalos are very impressive animals !

This theory reminded about my science class at school which I had never thought of, kind of like force farther from fulcrum will be more efficient at cracking nut kind of thing you are talking about lol. However this buffalo is tamed, if it was a wild one mere human force is absolutely no match he could never manipulate the head of that beast by controlling horns absolutely not, buffalo lifts another buffalo on the tips of one horn so humans are no comparison, naturally short horned animal should generate more force for tossing eg bison. However this analogy is somewhat one sided as there are also other bio mechanics like muscle mass to withstand the strain of extra weight of horns, types of muscles, flexibility to consider, as we have seen from prehistory there were pelorovis and longhorned bison that had the biggest horns and it worked for them. So again cape buffalo would have certainly thrown the puny human in the air, as does water buffalo if it did not want to oblige.

Here we come also to that one thing, what can´t be forgotten. Humans know weak spots of these animals. With some animals that doesn´t help if not with a gun. But with some animals that knowledge does help, if there is someone in good physical condition, knowing exactly what doing, then one can have possibility to force certain animals to ground at least for a moment. Long horns mean after all good leverage if able to grab and then make swift and determined move just in right time and right direction. This can be seen in rodeo performances and in many shows.

So it is not about pure strength but learned skills. Same thing can be seen when predators like lions and tigers hunt big prey. Of course they are weaker than big prey animals, they just are strong enough with needed skills and "weapons". Then again it is one thing to be able to take down some bull from horns, another thing is to keep it there and/or do it again when bull is really mad and paying attention.... Reply

[Jimmy]

(01-10-2019, 07:06 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(01-10-2019, 06:56 PM)Jimmy Wrote:

(01-10-2019, 04:16 PM)Spalea Wrote: @Jimmy :

About #70: I believe this man, on the photo you show, would be unable to do the same thing with a Cape African buffalo, simply because the African buffalo's horns are more curved, shorter but more massive (wider). Thus, the man's hands would be closer to the neck/spinal column axis. Therefore the bovid would have much more strength to throw him... Even if the water buffalo's dimensions can be larger.

The fact that their horns are longer allows the man to hold them further from the neck/spinal column axis. But is this water buffalo, seeming very powerful, domestic or wild ? 


Nevertheless water buffalos are very impressive animals !

This theory reminded about my science class at school which I had never thought of, kind of like force farther from fulcrum will be more efficient at cracking nut kind of thing you are talking about lol. However this buffalo is tamed, if it was a wild one mere human force is absolutely no match he could never manipulate the head of that beast by controlling horns absolutely not, buffalo lifts another buffalo on the tips of one horn so humans are no comparison, naturally short horned animal should generate more force for tossing eg bison. However this analogy is somewhat one sided as there are also other bio mechanics like muscle mass to withstand the strain of extra weight of horns, types of muscles, flexibility to consider, as we have seen from prehistory there were pelorovis and longhorned bison that had the biggest horns and it worked for them. So again cape buffalo would have certainly thrown the puny human in the air, as does water buffalo if it did not want to oblige.

Here we come also to that one thing, what can´t be forgotten. Humans know weak spots of these animals. With some animals that doesn´t help if not with a gun. But with some animals that knowledge does help, if there is someone in good physical condition, knowing exactly what doing, then one can have possibility to force certain animals to ground at least for a moment. Long horns mean after all good leverage if able to grab and then make swift and determined move just in right time and right direction. This can be seen in rodeo performances and in many shows.

So it is not about pure strength but learned skills. Same thing can be seen when predators like lions and tigers hunt big prey. Of course they are weaker than big prey animals, they just are strong enough with needed skills and "weapons". Then again it is one thing to be able to take down some bull from horns, another thing is to keep it there and/or do it again when bull is really mad and paying attention....

Yeah agreed most of your statement, but there is a difference between a tamed buffalo that lets you manipulate and then it gets mad and turns into a completely volatile animal , Lol to tell you the truth I had imagined such a scenario by looking at the massive stuffed head of a wild water buffalo imagined from 15 ft far a scenario where I met this buffalo in a forest, the buffalo stared at me and then decided to charge, those horns as thick as my legs, the span of the horns beyond my reach with even outstretched arms and tips that will tower over my head, the arc of the horn alone would cut off the escape route, it will be absolutely futile... ... .the safest option as a human is to play dead lol
Here is a good info and attack video concerning domestic water buffalo that changed in an instant.

Reply

[Shadow]

(01-10-2019, 08:29 PM)Jimmy Wrote:

(01-10-2019, 07:06 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(01-10-2019, 06:56 PM)Jimmy Wrote:

(01-10-2019, 04:16 PM)Spalea Wrote: @Jimmy :

About #70: I believe this man, on the photo you show, would be unable to do the same thing with a Cape African buffalo, simply because the African buffalo's horns are more curved, shorter but more massive (wider). Thus, the man's hands would be closer to the neck/spinal column axis. Therefore the bovid would have much more strength to throw him... Even if the water buffalo's dimensions can be larger.

The fact that their horns are longer allows the man to hold them further from the neck/spinal column axis. But is this water buffalo, seeming very powerful, domestic or wild ? 


Nevertheless water buffalos are very impressive animals !

This theory reminded about my science class at school which I had never thought of, kind of like force farther from fulcrum will be more efficient at cracking nut kind of thing you are talking about lol. However this buffalo is tamed, if it was a wild one mere human force is absolutely no match he could never manipulate the head of that beast by controlling horns absolutely not, buffalo lifts another buffalo on the tips of one horn so humans are no comparison, naturally short horned animal should generate more force for tossing eg bison. However this analogy is somewhat one sided as there are also other bio mechanics like muscle mass to withstand the strain of extra weight of horns, types of muscles, flexibility to consider, as we have seen from prehistory there were pelorovis and longhorned bison that had the biggest horns and it worked for them. So again cape buffalo would have certainly thrown the puny human in the air, as does water buffalo if it did not want to oblige.

Here we come also to that one thing, what can´t be forgotten. Humans know weak spots of these animals. With some animals that doesn´t help if not with a gun. But with some animals that knowledge does help, if there is someone in good physical condition, knowing exactly what doing, then one can have possibility to force certain animals to ground at least for a moment. Long horns mean after all good leverage if able to grab and then make swift and determined move just in right time and right direction. This can be seen in rodeo performances and in many shows.

So it is not about pure strength but learned skills. Same thing can be seen when predators like lions and tigers hunt big prey. Of course they are weaker than big prey animals, they just are strong enough with needed skills and "weapons". Then again it is one thing to be able to take down some bull from horns, another thing is to keep it there and/or do it again when bull is really mad and paying attention....

Yeah agreed most of your statement, but there is a difference between a tamed buffalo that lets you manipulate and then it gets mad and turns into completely volitile animal , Lol to tell you the truth I had imagined such a scenario by looking at the massive stuffed head of a wild water buffalo. I imagined from 15 ft far a scenario where I met this buffalo in a forest, the buffalo stared at me and then decided to charge, those horns as thick as my legs, the span of the horns beyond my reach with even outstretched arms and tips that will tower over my head, the arc of the horn alone would cut off the escape route, it will be absolutely futile... ... .the safest option as a human is to play dead lol
Here is a good info and attack video concerning dometic water buffalo that changed in an instant.

As I said, it is a different thing when animal is paying attention Many people have illusions about things which are possible and which are impossible, I know that. But what you say is self-evident to any sane person Reply