There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
06-18-2022, 01:25 AM( This post was last modified: 06-18-2022, 02:06 AM by jrocks )
(06-17-2022, 08:16 PM)GuateGojira Wrote: Here is another comparative image between the biggest skulls from Panthera atrox, Smilodon populator and Smilodon fatalis:
*This image is copyright of its original author
The specimen of Panthera atrox used in the image is the one from Bone Clones that is a copy/reconstruction of the specimen 2900-3 (the second on size in the list of Rancho La Brea) but I escalated it to the size of the record one. The specimen of S. populator is the original one from Uruguay, and finally the specimen of S. fatalis is the 2001-225 one of the three biggest ones (second in GSL) but I scaled it to the size of the largest one (2001-24).
Interestingly, while we can see some difference in size in the numbers in the paper, in reality the difference is not that much when you see them in this form.
oh wow i never knew there was a 14.87 inch fatalis skull, i thought the largest one was BC-067A which is 14.05 inches from boneclones, because of that i think there is for sure a populator skull out there which is even larger than bonaerensis 10-1 as populator is much larger than fatalis, although that is unproven til a bigger skull is found
oh wait 377.9 mm was the gsl of the 2nd largest fatalis skull, whats the gsl for the largest fatalis skull
(06-18-2022, 01:25 AM)jrocks Wrote: oh wow i never knew there was a 14.87 inch fatalis skull, i thought the largest one was BC-067A which is 14.05 inches from boneclones, because of that i think there is for sure a populator skull out there which is even larger than bonaerensis 10-1 as populator is much larger than fatalis, although that is unproven til a bigger skull is found
oh wait 377.9 mm was the gsl of the 2nd largest fatalis skull, whats the gsl for the largest fatalis skull
No, let me explain. The biggest skull from S. fatalis is 2001-24 with a GSL of 377.9 mm. The second one is 2001-225 with a GSL of 376.3 mm. Now, as there is no picture of 2001-24 I used the picture of 2001-225 for reference and I scaled it to the size of 2001-24, that is the thing.
About the difference, I was checking that the common size quoted for S. fatalis it maybe actualy the "average" and not the "maximum". Time ago @epaiva shared and email with the body dimentions of the skeletons at the George C. Page Museum in California, these ones:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
This is the email:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Just becarefull with the inches, as the aproximation between milimiters and inches may cause exagerations, like you can see in the skull of Panthera atrox, which should be 18.4 inches, not 19 inches.
Here is the often quoted size for S. fatalis:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Now, check that the sizes are basically the same, but when we see the email of Epaiva we can see that the skull asociated is not the maximum reported, but close to the average reported by Berta (1985) which is of 336 mm, she used the 25 skulls reported by Merriam & Sotck (1932). In that case, the specimen 2001-24 should belong to a bigger specimen.
If this is correct, is possible that we had underestimate the body size of S. fatalis as we are using the "average" body size as if it was the "maximum" body size, you can check that the difference between S. fatalis and S. populator in skull and long bones are just like the ones between and Indochina tiger and a Bengal tiger, it is not as dramatic as we may thing. Check the tables from Berta (1985):
*This image is copyright of its original author
So it seems that mayor difference will be in the robustness of the bones and not so much at the body dimentions, as the study of Christiansen & Harris (2005) suggest. It will be good to see which specimens they used in the study.
(06-18-2022, 01:25 AM)jrocks Wrote: oh wow i never knew there was a 14.87 inch fatalis skull, i thought the largest one was BC-067A which is 14.05 inches from boneclones, because of that i think there is for sure a populator skull out there which is even larger than bonaerensis 10-1 as populator is much larger than fatalis, although that is unproven til a bigger skull is found
oh wait 377.9 mm was the gsl of the 2nd largest fatalis skull, whats the gsl for the largest fatalis skull
No, let me explain. The biggest skull from S. fatalis is 2001-24 with a GSL of 377.9 mm. The second one is 2001-225 with a GSL of 376.3 mm. Now, as there is no picture of 2001-24 I used the picture of 2001-225 for reference and I scaled it to the size of 2001-24, that is the thing.
About the difference, I was checking that the common size quoted for S. fatalis it maybe actualy the "average" and not the "maximum". Time ago @epaiva shared and email with the body dimentions of the skeletons at the George C. Page Museum in California, these ones:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
This is the email:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Just becarefull with the inches, as the aproximation between milimiters and inches may cause exagerations, like you can see in the skull of Panthera atrox, which should be 18.4 inches, not 19 inches.
Here is the often quoted size for S. fatalis:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Now, check that the sizes are basically the same, but when we see the email of Epaiva we can see that the skull asociated is not the maximum reported, but close to the average reported by Berta (1985) which is of 336 mm, she used the 25 skulls reported by Merriam & Sotck (1932). In that case, the specimen 2001-24 should belong to a bigger specimen.
If this is correct, is possible that we had underestimate the body size of S. fatalis as we are using the "average" body size as if it was the "maximum" body size, you can check that the difference between S. fatalis and S. populator in skull and long bones are just like the ones between and Indochina tiger and a Bengal tiger, it is not as dramatic as we may thing. Check the tables from Berta (1985):
*This image is copyright of its original author
So it seems that mayor difference will be in the robustness of the bones and not so much at the body dimentions, as the study of Christiansen & Harris (2005) suggest. It will be good to see which specimens they used in the study.
oh, is there a weight calculation for that 377.9 mm fatalis skull
The skull was mentioned on carnivora
Read it 8 months ago I have the screenshot But it was of his first 610 overexaggeration
332 kg is of American lion
Actually most of the sites whatever I have seen don't give the formulas by which they calculate
Possibility is that it could be true but they didn't showed their whole study
As it is difficult for fan bases to create sites and such an level of being a fan boy/ girl
(06-18-2022, 04:45 PM)Utkarsh Wrote: The skull was mentioned on carnivora
Read it 8 months ago I have the screenshot But it was of his first 610 overexaggeration
332 kg is of American lion
Actually most of the sites whatever I have seen don't give the formulas by which they calculate
Possibility is that it could be true but they didn't showed their whole study
As it is difficult for fan bases to create sites and such an level of being a fan boy/ girl
If it was mentioned there, did that person provided any evidence? I don't visit Carnivora and many other people here too, so, can you put that information here too?
An average if 332 kg for male Panthera atrox is an exageration, the real range was probably about 251 kg, check that like I showed you before with the comparative images of the skulls, the difference between the biggest specimens of each species is not as incredible as some people believe. Now, it you are quoting Wheeler & Jefferson (2009), you need to be careful, in table 5B they made several estimation of body mass using several formulas, so they result is that the average of the average figures is of 251 kg, the average of the maximum figures is of 332 kg and the average of the minimum figures is of 218 kg. In conclution, based in they study, the maximum weight using all the formulas is about 332 kg, and the average using all the formulas is of 251 kg. This is very close to the body mass estimations from Christiansen & Harris (2009).
If you see a body mass but the person that made the calculation did not provided any formula or the explanation about how they made it, don't trust on it, simple. Any published per-review document shows the method and they results, even many posters here, like me, did provide or methods so we can be 100% transparent with our results. Again, if some one "claim" something without hard evidence, is simple unreliable.
(06-18-2022, 04:45 PM)Utkarsh Wrote: The skull was mentioned on carnivora
Read it 8 months ago I have the screenshot But it was of his first 610 overexaggeration
332 kg is of American lion
Actually most of the sites whatever I have seen don't give the formulas by which they calculate
Possibility is that it could be true but they didn't showed their whole study
As it is difficult for fan bases to create sites and such an level of being a fan boy/ girl
If it was mentioned there, did that person provided any evidence? I don't visit Carnivora and many other people here too, so, can you put that information here too?
An average if 332 kg for male Panthera atrox is an exageration, the real range was probably about 251 kg, check that like I showed you before with the comparative images of the skulls, the difference between the biggest specimens of each species is not as incredible as some people believe. Now, it you are quoting Wheeler & Jefferson (2009), you need to be careful, in table 5B they made several estimation of body mass using several formulas, so they result is that the average of the average figures is of 251 kg, the average of the maximum figures is of 332 kg and the average of the minimum figures is of 218 kg. In conclution, based in they study, the maximum weight using all the formulas is about 332 kg, and the average using all the formulas is of 251 kg. This is very close to the body mass estimations from Christiansen & Harris (2009).
If you see a body mass but the person that made the calculation did not provided any formula or the explanation about how they made it, don't trust on it, simple. Any published per-review document shows the method and they results, even many posters here, like me, did provide or methods so we can be 100% transparent with our results. Again, if some one "claim" something without hard evidence, is simple unreliable.
How large is the average and maximum weights of both male and female North American lions?
hi @GuateGojira, was the smilodon fatalis specimen that christiansen and harris said reached 350 kg in the "Body size of Smilodon (Mammalia: Felidae)." study the 14.87 inch skull, or was it another specimen
It had proportionally sliggtly longer legs than even the modern lion. Scientists think this is because they adapted to open land habitat like the living lion. Anyways it probably had high stamina by big cat standards.
The largest recorded skull of American lion is 467.5 mm.
Compared to the African lion skull the American lion they both have a very alike cranium but the latter's skull in a bit more elongated. The lower jaw differs.
They might've hunted in pairs like the modern lion. There is a frozen bovid found in Alaska nicknamed "The Blue Babe". According to scientists it had been hunted by 2 or 3 lions. Claw marks are visible. However this might have been the Beringian cave lion as well.
American lions competed with Smilodon fatalis and the short faced bear. The latter was much larger than any American lion.
American lions probably had reddish fur. Scientists have found near the fossils of the animal reddish furs. Unlike the usually depicted cream colored beast.
The Tar Pits have less American lions than sabertooth Smilodon fatalis. It is believed that the Pantherine here was more intelligent than the Machairodont.
The American lion was first described as Felis atrox by the great Joseph Leidy. It was considered later as a jaguar or a cat more closely related to a jaguar than a lion. More recent studies desribe it as a lion. Also it was treated as a subspecies of the modern lion (Panthera leo). Later Dr Ross Barnett confirmed though they are seperated species.
You might not believe it, but my job as a park ranger in Alaska is usually quite dull. A lot of campers report strange encounters in the woods. Some claim to see things at night. Some hear things in the woods. There have been thousands of reports regarding supposedly suspicious incidents during my tenure. I have investigated a lot myself. But they always ended in reasonable explanations. From a bear shitting in the woods, to a pair of particularly passionate squirrels, there is always a reasonable explanation.
By now, you might have checked the Wikipedia page for the American Lion.
You might already know that it stood up to eight feet tall. You might know that it was 25% larger than the modern lion. You might know that it weighed half a ton, bore claws arguably deadlier than the saber-tooth, and traveled territory throughout the United States. You might even know that it delayed the migration of human beings across the Bering Sea. Because it hunted us.
This is all common knowledge. No bullshit. It’s available to anyone willing to seek it. Remains of the animal were identified via mitochondrial DNA in the La Brea Tar Pits, which are located in modern day Los Angeles. Cave markings confirmed that they could stretch up to twelve feet tall on their hind legs. Modern estimates insist they were wiped from existence approximately 11,000 years ago. Probably by us.
But there is one detail unavailable online.
The American lion did not go extinct. I encountered one two years ago.
’
It was a Saturday evening. My partner and I were stuck in the Ranger cabin for an overnight shift. We hoped nobody would call. A night without calls meant a night full of movies. RJ and I usually spent our time on the job watching Jurassic Park, or Godfather, or something similar. Plus, the snow storm in town was expected to pick up momentum throughout the evening. Neither of us wanted to go outside and test it.
Murphy’s Law won out in the end. The phone rang shortly after three in the morning. RJ groaned, walked over, and answered like it were any other loon on a Tuesday. Then his dark features turned white as a ghost.
“Slow down. Slow down. Ma'am, what is your location?”
My worker gestured to me wildly. Two fingers out and a thumb up. Time to load the guns. I scanned the cabin desperately for the keys and tried to get everything ready while RJ grabbed our jackets and swept out the door. White sheets of ice whipped at our uncovered faces from all directions as soon as it opened.
“We are heading over there now. Apply pressure to the wound.” He turned to me and tried to mute the receiver as I hopped inside and turned the keys in the ignition of our four-wheel drive. “Fuck, Matt, we’re going to need an ambulance.”
RJ barked the location to me like a drill Sergeant while he tried to keep the woman on the phone. I could hear her frantic cries through the receiver. It did not sound good.
“He’s bleeding. He’s bleeding so much. It was so big. So big, Sir.”
The moment we pulled up to the small campsite, it was evident that we had missed the worst of the slaughter. Blood seeped into the snow in a horrible trail that led from the fireplace to the cabin. I parked the car and opened the door. Then a fired a round into the air. I thought any predators would be deterred by the sound of gunfire.
RJ followed my lead and edged out of our SUV quietly. The snow obscured most of our vision. But the path to the cabin appeared to be clear. He gestured two fingers over his shoulder like a fucking GI Joe soldier. I stupidly followed his lead.
We were about halfway to the cabin when we were attacked. My partner was standing two feet in front of me. I never saw the animal until it was too late.
RJ screamed before the lion took out his jugular. It was a pitiful sound. Like the last bit of juice being sucked through a straw. Two quick swats from dinner plate sized paws shut him up quick.
The commotion must have drawn attention from people inside the cabin. Somebody opened the door and stared at the carnage in a dumbfounded stupor. I sprinted towards them and locked the bolt behind us.
Three teenagers stared at me stupidly as the lion audibly disemboweled RJ outside.
I broke down and cried in front of them.
The kids said nothing until the creature lumbered away a few minutes later. The tall boy stuck out a hand in my pitiful direction and quietly introduced himself as Brian. The boy on the bed was John. He was sitting up with a makeshift bandage pressed to his arm. Blood soaked through the cloth in red. But most of it looked dried. The girl crying by the bedside was Sadie.
They all wanted asked the same thing.
“What is it? We didn’t get a look look.”
I tried to supply the rational answers. Wolverines can look disturbing to those who have never seen one. Sightings of mountain lions this far north are rare, but possible. I tried to appear authoritative. I tried not to shake the horror of what just happened. Sadie didn’t believe it for a second.
“That thing was bigger than a mountain lion. You saw it. what is it?”
I fumbled for more rational answers. Sweat started to pour into my shirt as the seriousness of our situation started to creep in. I was about to reply with more bullshit answers when a loud, obnoxious scraping shook the cabin from head to toe.
“Oh my God… it knows we’re in here,” whimpered John.
“Why would it do this? Didn’t it just eat?” begged Brian.
“It’s doing it for fun,” whispered Sadie.
The noise stretched across the length of our room slowly. As if the lion were dragging its nails slowly across the walls. Then the sound started to rise. It started near ground level and slowly went higher. To the windows. To the loft. To the roof. After one final thud, it soon became clear that the lion was standing on top of the house.
Then it jumped.
The entire ceiling sagged generously. Bits and pieces of snow slipped in through unseen cracks. I beckoned for the kids to follow me towards the door before the beast jumped again.
When it did, the wood started to crack.
An entire panel fell onto the floor in front of us. A small pillar of snow started to leak openly into the kitchen sink. The lion jumped again, and again, as more planks from the ceiling fell haplessly to the floor. I opened our door gently, so as not to disturb the creature, before one final jump caused the entire ceiling to give way.
The four of us squeaked out of the collapsed cabin as the lion writhed and growled at the thousands of splinters assuredly sinking into its fur. We passed the remains of RJ. He did not leave much more behind than a shell of bones and rib cages. He looked like a spent lobster.
John’s horrified scream drew back the attention of the creature. I could hear it stirring in the rubble. I pulled my gun off my shoulder as the kids ran imto the car and fired a shot in the general direction of the cabin. The animal screamed. It sounded so human that it made me pause and reconsider. Then I raced towards the car, opened the door, and threw my key in the ignition.
We never looked back.
The car stalled out in a snowbank three quarters of the way back to my ranger cabin. I made the group get out and run. Part of me felt like it was watching us. Waiting for another opportunity to strike. When we made it back, I sounded every single Goddamn alarm I had.
“
The incident was thoroughly investigated by the National Park Service. My coworker’s death was determined to be a bear attack. The roof collapse caused by natural occurrences. I told them that was impossible. I told them no bear could cause injuries or damage like that. No bear could launch itself on top of a house. But we never had any evidence. And so our story was, for the most part, ignored.
Regardless, I know what I saw. The American Lion is still alive and well. It could be hunting people as we speak. It could be stalking the same south suburban woods we wander with so much blind trust.
Sometimes, I can still hear it scream at night. I know its not alone. [i][i](source) (story by FirstBreath1)[/i][/i] [i][i]http://scaryhorrorstories.net/post/179932553726/the-american-lion-is-not-extinct[/i][/i]
Cool, I remember listening to this on YouTube. It was a great story.
You might not believe it, but my job as a park ranger in Alaska is usually quite dull. A lot of campers report strange encounters in the woods. Some claim to see things at night. Some hear things in the woods. There have been thousands of reports regarding supposedly suspicious incidents during my tenure. I have investigated a lot myself. But they always ended in reasonable explanations. From a bear shitting in the woods, to a pair of particularly passionate squirrels, there is always a reasonable explanation.
By now, you might have checked the Wikipedia page for the American Lion.
You might already know that it stood up to eight feet tall. You might know that it was 25% larger than the modern lion. You might know that it weighed half a ton, bore claws arguably deadlier than the saber-tooth, and traveled territory throughout the United States. You might even know that it delayed the migration of human beings across the Bering Sea. Because it hunted us.
This is all common knowledge. No bullshit. It’s available to anyone willing to seek it. Remains of the animal were identified via mitochondrial DNA in the La Brea Tar Pits, which are located in modern day Los Angeles. Cave markings confirmed that they could stretch up to twelve feet tall on their hind legs. Modern estimates insist they were wiped from existence approximately 11,000 years ago. Probably by us.
But there is one detail unavailable online.
The American lion did not go extinct. I encountered one two years ago.
’
It was a Saturday evening. My partner and I were stuck in the Ranger cabin for an overnight shift. We hoped nobody would call. A night without calls meant a night full of movies. RJ and I usually spent our time on the job watching Jurassic Park, or Godfather, or something similar. Plus, the snow storm in town was expected to pick up momentum throughout the evening. Neither of us wanted to go outside and test it.
Murphy’s Law won out in the end. The phone rang shortly after three in the morning. RJ groaned, walked over, and answered like it were any other loon on a Tuesday. Then his dark features turned white as a ghost.
“Slow down. Slow down. Ma'am, what is your location?”
My worker gestured to me wildly. Two fingers out and a thumb up. Time to load the guns. I scanned the cabin desperately for the keys and tried to get everything ready while RJ grabbed our jackets and swept out the door. White sheets of ice whipped at our uncovered faces from all directions as soon as it opened.
“We are heading over there now. Apply pressure to the wound.” He turned to me and tried to mute the receiver as I hopped inside and turned the keys in the ignition of our four-wheel drive. “Fuck, Matt, we’re going to need an ambulance.”
RJ barked the location to me like a drill Sergeant while he tried to keep the woman on the phone. I could hear her frantic cries through the receiver. It did not sound good.
“He’s bleeding. He’s bleeding so much. It was so big. So big, Sir.”
The moment we pulled up to the small campsite, it was evident that we had missed the worst of the slaughter. Blood seeped into the snow in a horrible trail that led from the fireplace to the cabin. I parked the car and opened the door. Then a fired a round into the air. I thought any predators would be deterred by the sound of gunfire.
RJ followed my lead and edged out of our SUV quietly. The snow obscured most of our vision. But the path to the cabin appeared to be clear. He gestured two fingers over his shoulder like a fucking GI Joe soldier. I stupidly followed his lead.
We were about halfway to the cabin when we were attacked. My partner was standing two feet in front of me. I never saw the animal until it was too late.
RJ screamed before the lion took out his jugular. It was a pitiful sound. Like the last bit of juice being sucked through a straw. Two quick swats from dinner plate sized paws shut him up quick.
The commotion must have drawn attention from people inside the cabin. Somebody opened the door and stared at the carnage in a dumbfounded stupor. I sprinted towards them and locked the bolt behind us.
Three teenagers stared at me stupidly as the lion audibly disemboweled RJ outside.
I broke down and cried in front of them.
The kids said nothing until the creature lumbered away a few minutes later. The tall boy stuck out a hand in my pitiful direction and quietly introduced himself as Brian. The boy on the bed was John. He was sitting up with a makeshift bandage pressed to his arm. Blood soaked through the cloth in red. But most of it looked dried. The girl crying by the bedside was Sadie.
They all wanted asked the same thing.
“What is it? We didn’t get a look look.”
I tried to supply the rational answers. Wolverines can look disturbing to those who have never seen one. Sightings of mountain lions this far north are rare, but possible. I tried to appear authoritative. I tried not to shake the horror of what just happened. Sadie didn’t believe it for a second.
“That thing was bigger than a mountain lion. You saw it. what is it?”
I fumbled for more rational answers. Sweat started to pour into my shirt as the seriousness of our situation started to creep in. I was about to reply with more bullshit answers when a loud, obnoxious scraping shook the cabin from head to toe.
“Oh my God… it knows we’re in here,” whimpered John.
“Why would it do this? Didn’t it just eat?” begged Brian.
“It’s doing it for fun,” whispered Sadie.
The noise stretched across the length of our room slowly. As if the lion were dragging its nails slowly across the walls. Then the sound started to rise. It started near ground level and slowly went higher. To the windows. To the loft. To the roof. After one final thud, it soon became clear that the lion was standing on top of the house.
Then it jumped.
The entire ceiling sagged generously. Bits and pieces of snow slipped in through unseen cracks. I beckoned for the kids to follow me towards the door before the beast jumped again.
When it did, the wood started to crack.
An entire panel fell onto the floor in front of us. A small pillar of snow started to leak openly into the kitchen sink. The lion jumped again, and again, as more planks from the ceiling fell haplessly to the floor. I opened our door gently, so as not to disturb the creature, before one final jump caused the entire ceiling to give way.
The four of us squeaked out of the collapsed cabin as the lion writhed and growled at the thousands of splinters assuredly sinking into its fur. We passed the remains of RJ. He did not leave much more behind than a shell of bones and rib cages. He looked like a spent lobster.
John’s horrified scream drew back the attention of the creature. I could hear it stirring in the rubble. I pulled my gun off my shoulder as the kids ran imto the car and fired a shot in the general direction of the cabin. The animal screamed. It sounded so human that it made me pause and reconsider. Then I raced towards the car, opened the door, and threw my key in the ignition.
We never looked back.
The car stalled out in a snowbank three quarters of the way back to my ranger cabin. I made the group get out and run. Part of me felt like it was watching us. Waiting for another opportunity to strike. When we made it back, I sounded every single Goddamn alarm I had.
“
The incident was thoroughly investigated by the National Park Service. My coworker’s death was determined to be a bear attack. The roof collapse caused by natural occurrences. I told them that was impossible. I told them no bear could cause injuries or damage like that. No bear could launch itself on top of a house. But we never had any evidence. And so our story was, for the most part, ignored.
Regardless, I know what I saw. The American Lion is still alive and well. It could be hunting people as we speak. It could be stalking the same south suburban woods we wander with so much blind trust.
Sometimes, I can still hear it scream at night. I know its not alone. [i][i](source) (story by FirstBreath1)[/i][/i] [i][i]http://scaryhorrorstories.net/post/179932553726/the-american-lion-is-not-extinct[/i][/i]
Cool, I remember listening to this on YouTube. It was a great story.
That is a really interesting story that Ive seen before, and who knows if its out there. Until very recently, no one thought the last of the steppe bison survived until only 400 years ago in the yukon, and no one knew that mammoths survived until only 3900 years ago on an extremely northern part of mainland siberia, and not just on wrangel island. It sucks that mammoths, mastodons, cave lions, sabertooth cats, giant ground sloths and all the other megafauna and some non megafauna died out in the largest mass extinction event this planet has ever seen in 5 million years. We, and the animals that are still here today also had population crashes during that time, but 12900 years later, we and the animals alive today are fortunately still here. WE ARE SURVIVORS.
(07-15-2021, 09:10 AM)epaiva Wrote: Length of skull 46,7 cm, wide of skull 30,4 cm, length of upper fangs 74,8 and 74,3 mm, length of lower fangs 53,9 mm and 55,1 mm
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
What is the width of its muzzle in inches and mm? The width from its right canine tooth to its left canine?
American Lion (Panthera atrox)
