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American Lion (Panthera atrox)

Czech Republic Spalea Offline
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#46

(11-02-2018, 02:19 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(10-23-2018, 05:03 PM)Spalea Wrote: Two sources about the pantera atrox's size:

1) The lions of Tsavo by Bruce D. Patterson:



*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author


2)The big cats by Nancy A. Neff:


*This image is copyright of its original author

About the book of Dr Patterson: That book was made in 2004 (is an excelent one, byt he way), and those mass estimations of 340 - 522 kg came from the calculations made by Dr Anyonge in 1993. These weights are known to be gross exagerations and Dr Christiansen prove it very good in his document of 2005 (about the body mass of Smilodon); sadly in this days some documents still quote those erroneous figures. The best calculations on this animal estimate a maximum weight of c.360 kg, which make sense if we take in count that the heaviest modern tigers and lions captured/hunted in the wild had a maximum weight of 250-260 kg, "empty belly", not fat and not cattle-eaters.


Nancy A. Neff made a good estimation of the maximum total length for the largest Panthera atrox. The head-body length estimated for the largest specimen is of 250 cm (straigh or along the curves? it not known). So depending of the length of the tail, which is very variable even in modern great cats, a lenght of 360 cm is not out of question.

Agree... I have to say that I have never believed to a more-than-450-kilo lion. Thus a 522-kilo-lion is quite unreal. However, taking notice of all I have read about American lion, I think that 300-350 kilos is a reasonable figure. If the cat's body size is 250 cm, and if we add a tail of one meter, as the extant lions have, we have a lenght of 350 cm. Thus 360 cm lenght is anything but absurd.
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Canada Wolverine Away
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#47
( This post was last modified: 11-02-2018, 05:03 AM by Wolverine )

Yes, most probably Panthera atrox has never exceeded 400 kg. But its possible than the largest specimens of Panthera fossilis could touch or even exceed a little bit 400 kg margin. 
@GuateGojira you are good in weight calculations, do you have dimentions and data of the skeletons of the gigantic specimens of Panthera fossilis found not long ago in Northern Russia (Ural), what are your weight estimations?



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GuateGojira Offline
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#48
( This post was last modified: 11-04-2018, 09:34 AM by GuateGojira )

(11-02-2018, 04:58 AM)Wolverine Wrote: Yes, most probably Panthera atrox has never exceeded 400 kg. But its possible than the largest specimens of Panthera fossilis could touch or even exceed a little bit 400 kg margin. 
@GuateGojira you are good in weight calculations, do you have dimentions and data of the skeletons of the gigantic specimens of Panthera fossilis found not long ago in Northern Russia (Ural), what are your weight estimations?

In a previous post, don't remember where, I estimated that the only cat that probably weighed about 400 kg, or maybe more, was Panthera fossilis, based in the huge skulls found of this species. The other one that probably reached similar body masses were the largest specimens of Panthera spelaea from the transition phase.

Now, in a recent post in the cave "lion" topic (https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-the-cav...is?page=15 - post 213), using the isometrical equation of Sorkin (2008) and Christiansen & Harris (2009), but only with the method suggested by Sorkin (2008; using only the largest/average specimens from certain species) with the largest specimen reported from Panthera fossilis which is 484.7 mm Chateau skull (Marciszak et al. 2014), which is the largest skull from any Felidae on record, I obtained a body mass of 418.4 kg, with posible minimum and maximums of 394.3 kg and 441.5 kg, depending of what specimens we use. I think that a body mass of c.420 kg is a good estimation for the maximum weight for Panthera fossilis, which will make him the largest cat in history.
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India brotherbear Offline
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#49

418.4 kilograms is equal to

922.41 pounds (avoirdupois)
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GuateGojira Offline
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#50

Yes @brotherbear, is correct. But please take in count that this figure of 418.4 kg/922.4 lb for the largest Panthera fossilis is just an isometric calculation, and may be not very accurate. So treat it with caution.
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India brotherbear Offline
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#51

GuateGojira.... Would you agree that perhaps there is a size limit for big cats which numerous extinct species has reached such as the Ngandong tiger, the cave lion, and the American lion? From the scant size differences as seen in the fossils, I consider that even were they still living breathing animals, the biggest might would still be up for debate.
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Venezuela epaiva Online
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#52
( This post was last modified: 11-11-2018, 09:35 PM by epaiva )

Information taken from the book Pleistocene Mammals of North America Bjorn Kurten and Elaine Anderson

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*This image is copyright of its original author

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GuateGojira Offline
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#53

(11-11-2018, 09:32 PM)epaiva Wrote:
*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author

Wow! You also have the huge Panthera atrox skull from Bone Clones. I was checking the sizes in the website and its size is almoust the same (just a litle diferences in millimeters) to the specimen 2900-3 from Rancho La Brea, which suggest that is a copy of it (although restored as the original fossil is not 100% intact). This means that you have an accurate copy of the second largest skull from Panthera atrox in the world and the one the Christiansen and Harris used in the study of 2009!!!

You are very lucky @epaiva Like
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Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
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#54

(11-17-2018, 10:28 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(11-11-2018, 09:32 PM)epaiva Wrote:
*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author

Wow! You also have the huge Panthera atrox skull from Bone Clones. I was checking the sizes in the website and its size is almoust the same (just a litle diferences in millimeters) to the specimen 2900-3 from Rancho La Brea, which suggest that is a copy of it (although restored as the original fossil is not 100% intact). This means that you have an accurate copy of the second largest skull from Panthera atrox in the world and the one the Christiansen and Harris used in the study of 2009!!!

You are very lucky @epaiva Like


The specimen 2900-3 might have the broadest muzzle of all discovered lion-like felines so far.

But wasn't this title supposed to belong to Panthera spelaea instead?
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GuateGojira Offline
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#55

(11-17-2018, 10:55 PM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: The specimen 2900-3 might have the broadest muzzle of all discovered lion-like felines so far.

But wasn't this title supposed to belong to Panthera spelaea instead?

Nop, the specimen 2900-3 was found in the La Brea Tar pits in California, USA. Is from Panthera atrox, here is the table:

*This image is copyright of its original author


Here is an image of the BoneClones specimen:

*This image is copyright of its original author


I don't think that the muzzle is particularly large, remember that the pictures are deceptive. Maybe @epaiva can put images of him with the skull for comparison.
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Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
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#56

(11-17-2018, 11:10 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(11-17-2018, 10:55 PM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: The specimen 2900-3 might have the broadest muzzle of all discovered lion-like felines so far.

But wasn't this title supposed to belong to Panthera spelaea instead?

Nop, the specimen 2900-3 was found in the La Brea Tar pits in California, USA. Is from Panthera atrox, here is the table:

*This image is copyright of its original author


Here is an image of the BoneClones specimen:

*This image is copyright of its original author


I don't think that the muzzle is particularly large, remember that the pictures are deceptive. Maybe @epaiva can put images of him with the skull for comparison.


The muzzle breadth of this skull is 141.4 mm which is wider than the broadest Panthera spelaea muzzle at 138 mm.
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GuateGojira Offline
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#57

You are right, the muzzle of the specimen is the largest of all the ones in the list. shocked 


The largest Panthera atrox skull "Univ. Calif. 14001" is of 135.9 mm.
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Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
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#58
( This post was last modified: 11-18-2018, 04:53 AM by GrizzlyClaws )

(11-18-2018, 04:26 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: You are right, the muzzle of the specimen is the largest of all the ones in the list. shocked 


The largest Panthera atrox skull "Univ. Calif. 14001" is of 135.9 mm.

Except the obscure Chinese specimen, the specimen 2900-3 has the broadest muzzle of all.

Since Panthera atrox was highly convergent with Panthera onca, so I am not surprising that they had also evolved with massive robust snout.
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Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
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#59

The muzzle of some of the largest Cave lion skulls

- 484.7 mm Panthera fossilis skull from Chateau - 125.3 mm

- 465 mm Panthera fossilis skull from Chateau - 114.1 mm

- 475 mm Panthera spelaea skull from Mokhnevskaya Cave - 138 mm

- 451 mm Panthera spelaea skull from San River - 138 mm

- 467.5 mm Panthera atrox skull Univ. Calif. 14001 - 135.9 mm

- 458 mm Panthera atrox skull 2900-3 - 141.4 mm
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Venezuela epaiva Online
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#60
( This post was last modified: 11-18-2018, 09:47 PM by epaiva )

Big Panthera atrox replica skull

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