Persian Leopard (Panthera pardus saxicolor)

[Luipaard]

(02-08-2022, 02:31 AM)Pckts Wrote:

(02-08-2022, 02:12 AM)Luipaard Wrote: @Pckts@guate 

Quote:Yeah, considering that is exactly what I wrote. Neither specimen looks to be anything special to me.

So your answer is yes to my question (them being average-sized)?

Quote:In regards to the male I posted "M3", we all know the measurements claim was over the curves as well as him being between 4-6 years old in 2015 not to mention him having a longer BL than M2 or M1. He's a good sized male and said to be 70kg

Were the others measured differently then? I suppose not. M3 was longer, period. Heck, even M2 was almost identical to M4 but they didn't weigh him. Chances are he was as big as M4 (75kg). They stated M3 to be the biggest they had caught and again on paper the heaviest one was M4 with 75kg so he's certainly not 70kg.

Quote:Bickering over it saying "at least 70kg" means nothing, 70/75kg does it really matter?

It does matter since you tag M3 with a 70kg label whereas he's not. They didn't measure him according to the study GPS collars reveal trans-boundary movements by Persian leopards in Iran. Then again they claim he was the biggest male they caught in the area so he certainly weighs more than 75kg.

Quote:He's not near 100kg and looks more impressive to me than either of the Leopards posted.

First you said he was as impressive as the males LoveAnimals posted and now M3 suddenly becomes more impressive?

Quote:Not to mention if you're saying one comes from the same place and they said M3 was the largest in that region, how can you say the other is more impressive?

The one from the Youtube video is too from Tandoureh National park yes, just like M3, M4, ... On paper M4 is/was the largest in that region although again M3 was claimed to be the largest. I explained why the 'Youtube one' is more impressive; the adult wild boar kill says enough (i.e. perspective) IMO plus he looks bigger (e.g. ears are smaller relative to his head). Enough indicators to assume he's bigger than M3 which according to you is slightly above the average for Iranian males (66kg vs 70kg). Weird for a good sized Persian male to just weigh 70kg don't you think?

Quote:Lastly, the study you quote didn't measure any of their own cats specific to that study, it's just a collection of data. The idea that 1/5 Leopards measured reached more than 90kg is misleading.

This is why I explicitly said it was the most randomly selection there is since they didn't care about specific populations. You know very well by now that they're bigger in Northern Iran and smaller elsewhere (especially Southern/Central Iran). The probability of a +90kg Persian male is much higher in Northern Iran than elsewhere. There are circa 550 and 850 Persian leopards in Iran. Of course not 1/5 are 90kg since it includes males, females and young ones. But in Northern Iran I can guarantee you that indeed 1/5 of the males will be +90kg.

Quote:Not to mention Mohammad Farhadinia specifically states that males in the North in their prime weigh around 70kg

Pretty sure he's talking about averages just like those 4 prime males from Phinda Game Reserve (KwaZulu-Natal province in South Africa) weighed 72kg. I seriously doubt prime males from Northern Iran weigh just 70kg which is slightly more than de general average weight for Iranian males.

Quote:and Kambiz states the largest male he knows of was 88kg from the Caspian Hyrcanian to go along with the amputated leopard. Farhadinia also states the heaviest males were all under 90kg, between 75-88kg.

Again we got multiple males weighing more than 90kg despite the small sample and the weights being gathered from a whole country rather than a specific population. They literally gathered 0,06% (850 individuals at max) of the Persian leopard weights in Iran and even then 4 males weighed +90kg. It's an extremely small sample + a random selection considering weight data was gathered across the whole country of Iran. In other words, the figures would be more impressive if they were solely from Northern Iran. It would've been the equivalent of Pantanal jaguars. Those jaguars are the biggest in the world and at the same time the most studied one as well. All we need is more specific data regarding Northern Iranian leopard. Unfortunately we lack this data and even then +80kg males appear more common in Northern Iran.

Quote:So in closing, claiming those males as 90/100kg Males is most likely an exaggeration.

Maybe, but what you did is exactly the opposite. You called them nothing special after all. That's called downgrading.

"But in Northern Iran I can guarantee you that indeed 1/5 of the males will be +90kg."

No you cant, you have one cat at 91kg's and all others beneath that weight. What you can pretty much guarantee is that more often than not Leopards weighed from the north are going to be less than 90kg's and that's it.

Quote:No you cant, you have one cat at 91kg's and all others beneath that weight. What you can pretty much guarantee is that more often than not Leopards weighed from the north are going to be less than 90kg's and that's it.

As far as I know, we have 5-6 male weights specifically from Northern Iran; 64kg (young male), 70kg (4 year old), 86kg, 88kg, 91kg and 95kg/115kg injured male. Then there was an exceptional male captured in northern country back in the 1960s. It's very likely the 90kg male reported by Harrington 1977 since back then there was no other data available:

*This image is copyright of its original author

And of course they'll weigh less than 90kg more often than not. After all 90kg-100kg is basically the upper limit. However we're not talking about their specific maximum weight but about the frequency of such large males. It's a fact that they're the biggest in Northern Iran so it only increases the chance to reach said weights. Reply