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Lions of Sabi Sands
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 (01-31-2023, 03:38 AM)SMK350 Wrote: @Duco Ndona Can you cite a source for that definition of territorial male? Ever article I looked up has “dominating a pride” as a criteria of being a territorial male. There’s a difference between showing territorial behaviors and being a territorial male. Its just a observation. One problem with scientific definitions is typically that they try to come up with a overaching general theory of animal behavoir, neatly categorizing animal behavoirs in specific classes or categories. While in reality, these are very complex animals that just do as they please and can show behavoir in between these groups. Skorro and the Birminghams for example. are non territorial males dominating a pride. The PCmales also staked out northern Singita first and then worked on luring Nkuhuma lionesses towards them and taking over the Mhangeni. They even had a clash with Nym and Sym, which also were doing the same in singita back then. The Avocas took over large areas of Birmingham territory. Without making much gains if it comes to prides and the Nharu males were seen scentmarking on Nwas territory, just to see if they could. While it is true that male lions will eventually vacate a teritory if there is no prospect of any future mating opportunities. The mere prospect of mating is enough for them to lay claim to a piece of land. The whole must dominate a pride criteria should therefor not be seen as a checkbox before deeming a male lion territorial. Their actual behavoir is much to complex for that.   (01-31-2023, 03:20 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote:(01-31-2023, 03:38 AM)SMK350 Wrote: @Duco Ndona Can you cite a source for that definition of territorial male? Ever article I looked up has “dominating a pride” as a criteria of being a territorial male. There’s a difference between showing territorial behaviors and being a territorial male. These labels like “territorial males” are created by scientists so they can accurately study and understand a species. I can’t just decide young males still with their prides are CUBS because, well, why should I call a lion SUBADULT if he’s still sitting at home with his mom? Lol. That’s not how this works. No one has any confusion on when the Plains Camp males became territorial. They became territorial when they secured the two Nkuhumas in Singita. Every Singita guide will point to that event. The Avocas became territorial when they took over the Talamati pride… period. Long before that they roamed the Manyeleti where they roared, scent marked and even mauled the resident male of the Mbiri pride. But none of that matters. They were still nomads displaying territorial behavior but they still hadn’t secured a pride. It’s so simple and easy to understand. Literally no ranger or guide will tell you otherwise. No scientist will tell you otherwise. So let’s not over-complicate things. Even in outlier examples you can apply this basic criteria. Is scorro territorial? No. He associates with his daughters and they are living a nomadic existence at the moment keeping a low profile to avoid detection from other males…. Simple. 
Males can be territorial for months before taking over a pride. The pride isn't just gonna give in, a new coalition could dethrone a coalition and take that territory at which point they are territorial in my book. They may not be pride males at this point but if they are holding a territory and defending it, they are territorial. Sometimes both of these happen simultaneously, like the PCs case for example.
This is the study of animal behavoir or psychology. Not physics or chemistry. Any hope of creating simplefied but accurate theories on how animals behave should be tossed in the trash. As things are far more vague and complex in real life.
Why should we adher to weird checkboxes when the animals themselves dont  (02-01-2023, 08:14 AM)sik94 Wrote: Males can be territorial for months before taking over a pride. The pride isn't just gonna give in, a new coalition could dethrone a coalition and take that territory at which point they are territorial in my book. They may not be pride males at this point but if they are holding a territory and defending it, they are territorial. Sometimes both of these happen simultaneously, like the PCs case for example. I agree. And just to add, it's not just your book, because according to most articles, territoriality is generally defined as " “the defense of an area,” wherein the area being defended is known as the “territory.” " The definition is made general/open to interpretation on purpose so it can act as a building block to create more specific terms for different animals, like how you said "pride male", for a territorial male that has secured a pride. I think saying a male cannot be territorial without securing a pride first is mixing up one of the functions of a territory, which is acquiring mates, as a criteria to being considered territorial. The criteria is just defending an area. Lions typically become territorial and secure a pride at the same time because they typically form their territories to encompass a pride's territories. But acquiring mates can come after becoming territorial in some cases. 
Yea, in most cases, to become territorial, males need to takeover territory first from previous males, which could take months, then after they oust old males, then they can overtake the pride/females who live in that territory, which often is not simple if pride has cubs/subs.
In that case, prides can avoid new territorial males for months/years, but that doesnt mean that those new males are not territorial. As I said, Mongawane males are territorial around Shindzela for over a year now, they are roaring, scent marking and defending their territory, without having a full pride yet, because pride in the area, like Avocas, moved out and avoid them because they have cubs/subs. 
Monday, 23 January 2023
13 members of the Torchwood pride were found on Broken Dam Buffelshoek. Tuesday, 24 January 2023 Torchwood pride of 13 lions were waiting on the Northern end of Dolerite road waiting for the buffalo herd. Talamati Breakaways were found around Gowrie Gate, with 3 Lioness and the S8 Male. Wednesday, 25 January 2023 The Talamati Break away pride was found sleeping in Sandy Patch Road on Djuma, with 3 Lioness, 5 Cubs and the S8 male present. The Torchwood pride with 12 members present were found resting on Buffelshoek. Thursday, 26 January 2023 The Talamati Break aways were found on Djuma on weavers nest road very close to the young male leopard Maribye. Friday, 27 January 2023 The talamati break aways were resting on Ingwe alley on Djuma with 5 cubs, 3 Lioness and the S8 Male lion. Saturday, 28 January 2023 The Nkuhuma pride of lions were found on A main close to serengetti opening. 3 females and 3 cubs were present. Nkuhuma Sub Adults were also viewed on Drongo South with 3 Sub adult males, 3 females, 4 cubs and Mohawk Avoca present. Sunday, 29 January 2023 Nkuhuma sub adults consisting of 3 males, 3 females and 4 cubs were found resting in the middle of the road on Rhino Ring East. Mohawk Avoca Male lion was found trailing behind the Nkuhuma sub adults from Kraaines pan https://www.elephantplains.co.za/big-5-b.../02/10264/ Seems they're calling the youngest Nkuhuma sub a cub still (02-01-2023, 11:05 AM)Xiku_kutsu Wrote:(02-01-2023, 08:14 AM)sik94 Wrote: Males can be territorial for months before taking over a pride. The pride isn't just gonna give in, a new coalition could dethrone a coalition and take that territory at which point they are territorial in my book. They may not be pride males at this point but if they are holding a territory and defending it, they are territorial. Sometimes both of these happen simultaneously, like the PCs case for example. I guess we are getting terms mixed up here. Males can act territorial but they are not considered dominant males until they secure a pride. All males that reach sexual maturity will show dominance behaviors. Roaring and scent marking doesn't make one a dominant male anymore than the Talamati males are dominant even though they scent mark. I used the example of zoo animals displaying dominance behavior because it's really important to realize that these behaviors are instinctual in all lions. One of the most critical functions of a male lion is to protect the territory of PRIDES. Conquering empty territories is not a thing. It's definitely some kind of arrested developed if males don't have a strong interest in claiming a pride to the point that they will abandon an empty territory to actually go somewhere were there are females. "As I said, Mongawane males are territorial around Shindzela for over a year now, they are roaring, scent marking and defending their territory, without having a full pride yet, because pride in the area, like Avocas, moved out and avoid them because they have cubs/subs." This is definitely an issue because prime males would typically seek out females not stay in one area for over a year without a pride. There are adult females with the Avocas who have been mating for over a year so there was no reason to let them slip through their hands. Just today I saw that the 4 Black Dams are "hot on the trail" of the Avoca pride. That's why they are dominant males and Mongawanes are, as of now, just bachelor males. The 4 Black Dams are not the same status as the Mongawanes. (02-01-2023, 08:07 PM)SMK350 Wrote: This is definitely an issue because prime males would typically seek out females not stay in one area for over a year without a pride. There are adult females with the Avocas who have been mating for over a year so there was no reason to let them slip through their hands. Just today I saw that the 4 Black Dams are "hot on the trail" of the Avoca pride. That's why they are dominant males and Mongawanes are, as of now, just bachelor males. The 4 Black Dams are not the same status as the Mongawanes. Mongawane males where seen with few Avoca females when those females where in their territory, but Avocas are now hanging further west, more in BDM's, Mapoza and Hercules/Sumatra males territory. For Mongawanes to aquire them, they would need to expand in those males territory, which would lead to direct clash. Mongawane males maybe not being confident enough or any other reason to expand their territory and challenge other coalitions, doesnt mean they are not territorial in their area around Shindzela, because they dont have a pride. Being territorial and being dominant can be interpret as 2 different things, you are territorial over territory/area, while you are dominant over pride/other lions, but we often look at these 2 terms as the same. Mongawane males are not "bachelors", they are definetly territorial males of Shindzela area, you could say they are not dominant, as there is none they are "dominating". As far as im aware, BDM's still dont have full control over any pride yet, only seen occasionaly mating with few females, so they are in the same status as Mongawanes pretty much. I mean, if you consider males to be territorial/dominant only when they acquire pride, thats your point of view, my and prob many others is not, as period in between when males become territorial, by either ousting former males or taking free area, and time when they actually acquire pride/females in that area, can be very long, few months to even year/s, because of many reasons. For example, lets say NK/Nhenha ousted Tumbela, and they tried to overtook Othawas, but Othawas run away from western sector to save cubs, no other pride like Ximhungwes is in the area, east of them are territorial PC males and cant expand further east, so what are NK/Nhenha?? They are fully territorial males of western sector, they literally ousted territorial/dominant male, its not their fault that Othawas run away and there is no pride in the area, when new pride comes in, they will acquire them, as they will be in their territory.  (02-01-2023, 08:07 PM)SMK350 Wrote: Males can act territorial but they are not considered dominant males until they secure a pride. All males that reach sexual maturity will show dominance behaviors. Roaring and scent marking doesn't make one a dominant maleRoaring and scent marking will make those males pretenders. If however they manage to chase/beat/kill current dominant male(s) of that particular arena they are becoming new rulers there. If Black Dams would be roaring, but after that would be chased off by Avoca male then Avoca male would be still dominant male in the arena, through in this case it is otherway around.
Its more an open challenge and test of resolve than pretending.
You make your stand and now its up to the defending lions to do something about or lose part of the territory. If the newcomers manage to become powerfull enough. The local pride may be swayed to switch sides or atleast mate with them to confuse paternity. If the defending males dont flee entirely. Lots of takeovers follow this approach and neighbouring coalitions often have these sorts of low intensity conflicts. 
Everything is simple, there is a definition for "territorial lions" but the lions' behavior and the natural condition surrounding lions are more complex than the science definition. lions' behavior and the natural condition surrounding lions are not like chemistry, math or even law, where if you are missing an element, you end up with something different such as different compound, different math operation or different crime.
Therefore, if any lions protect against intruder the territory where they live in, how else could that be called if not territorials, owners?? lessee?? (02-01-2023, 08:07 PM)SMK350 Wrote:(02-01-2023, 11:05 AM)Xiku_kutsu Wrote:(02-01-2023, 08:14 AM)sik94 Wrote: Males can be territorial for months before taking over a pride. The pride isn't just gonna give in, a new coalition could dethrone a coalition and take that territory at which point they are territorial in my book. They may not be pride males at this point but if they are holding a territory and defending it, they are territorial. Sometimes both of these happen simultaneously, like the PCs case for example. Well, I won't be redundant since others have already mentioned how dominant males can refer to a dominance over an area or a pride, and I often hear guides using it interchangeably. But just to clarify, I don't think lions purposefully take over "empty" land. As I said, they typically take over the areas where the lionesses are. But there are circumstances when lionesses with young cubs don't want anything to do with them, which results in these new dominant males still lacking a pride for a period of time because they're busy playing a game of hide and seek to catch them. This period of time can be brief or take months, but this isn't really the males' "fault" and they can still be considered dominant as long as keep rivals out of the area. 
This might be relevant to the discussion of what a dominant male is, a Mala Mala report on the 2 eastern Mapogos:
February 2010 • 2 Mlowathi Males (8 years 3 months): (21 sightings) Success has come in small doses for these males so far. For such a completely dominant pair they have yet to produce a single cub or take complete control of any pride. The only pride under their complete dominance is the Marthly pride but this pride gets very little attention from the males has their attentions are taken by the prospect of more prides. The reality is that neither the Styx pride or the Eyrefield pride have accepted them and have gone into hiding leaving the males to bounce between the two Styx females in the Mlowathi and the two Eyrefield females around the airstrip. Besides ripping our lion prides apart these two males have to prove their worth and one begins to wonder if they ever will. Lets hope with all the mating they have been doing this month that cubs are just around the corner because otherwise we might be faced with a situation where the two prides will split which would be the worst scenario for the lion population. Mala Mala points out that despite being very dominant in Mala Mala ( and for a long time ) they lacked control over any prides there, their only pride was the Tsalala pride which is basically a Londolozi pride. So weren't they dominant over Mala Mala and also northern Sabi Sands before? They also never controlled any prides in Djuma besides mating with some Nkuhuma females, still they were considered dominant there before getting ousted by Gijimas. The fact is that they did had control over these lands, they chased off intruders, fought off intruders and even killed them sometimes. It's silly to say they weren't the dominant males just because the prides kept avoiding them. A dominant/territorial male and a pride male aren't necessarily the same thing. At this time the Eyrefield and Styx prides with the Rollercoaster male were basically nomads avoiding the Mlowathis, Rollercoaster wasn't territorial, he wasn't roaring or scent-marking, he was "ousted" multiple times by the Mapogos, still he was the pride male of the Eyrefield and Styx females, the same way Mlowathis were the dominant territorial males of the land but weren't pride males in that region. |
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