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(01-27-2022, 04:42 AM)SpinoRex Wrote: The tigers in Panna are measured over curves as Sunal Told me. The only areas where straight line is used is in UP (Pillibhit) and Corbett at least from the infos we have now. The method used by Sunquist is a mixture which should have just slight differences.
About M105 i agree. Using his daily food intake and possibility of being gorged his empty weight must have been exactly c.260 kg and i got also 256 kg. Even if he would be totally full (30 kg region) he still wouldnt be lower than 250 kg ig, which justifies the estimate. And combined with the Chest Girth - Weight calculation there should be no problem at all.
Also i was recently checking some datas. There was a 6-7 year old male weighed in Bhutan by the GTC. Found a twitter post by a wildlife biologist who is working "there" reporting about that as well. It was collared in 2018
I will like to add a few remarks.
Technically all the great cats are measured "over curves" by scientists so we need to know specific details of the measurement method used, if they hold the tape straight, or if they pressed the tape in all the curves of the back, or it they press it just in a few points to hold the tape, etc. (Yes, measuring over curves is a mess, it depends of who made the measurements). I saw the answer from Sunal and is a very short one and we will need more details. The straigh line method used by Dr Sunquist is the closest one to the method "between pegs", he explained this to me twice, and those from north of India look like if they used the same method. We will need more details from the tigers of Panna to actually be sure that they pressed the tape in all the contours of the back, or if they only hold the tape on the back, in a straigh form from the tip to tip, with no pressing. Those are the important details.
About the food intake of Nepalese tigers, you need to remember that none of the tigers was fully feed at the capture, again confirmed by Dr Sunquist. Also, as Fiona Sunquist describes in the book "Tiger Moon", all the tigers were disturbed at they kills, so none of them had the daily food intake, in fact if you take in count that the baits were prepared in the afternoon before sunset, that tigers killed the tigers in the pure nigh at about 8 pm (maybe latter than that) and that the capture party drived the tigers as earlier than 5 am and captures are all in the very morning, the tigers had a window of just 10 hours more or less to eat, that is not enough time to get the 14-19 kg calculated to be eat in a day. Take in cound that those meausrements of food intake were not taken during the tiger captures, as they focused in the tigers itselfs, they weighed the carcases in different situations, from tigers that were already tagged. Dr Sunquist recorded 38 events, that is more than the 15 capture events during his work time. So, capture of tigers were focused on that, and measurement of food intake was done in a different event. In conclution, the amount of food of 14 - 19 is in a 24 hours period and captured tigers that all were disturbed at they kills do not had the time to eat in full (in fact, some of them returned to continue to eat after they capture and collaring), so the amount in each tiger was less than the 24 hours intake. I explained all this process in previous posts for clarification.
I have the information of the 3 tigers from Bhutan (one male and 2 females), but I did not use it because I still don't have personal confirmation of the numbers. However I will include them now as I will add a note that these weights are reported but still not verified by me. Maybe in the future we could see a document with details of they captures.
Thanks for your answer.
I said worst case, that is, even if they had been full, the estimate of about 260 kg would be correct. It was more or less a "confirmation" from my side
Also, I don't think tigers need 24h to eat their food. 10 hours are therefore normally enough, if one calculates their sleep time (65%). But on the whole, these are only speculations, since we do not know the exact backgrounds.
As for the curve measurements I am sure most use the Classic Method. But I will ask Sunal again about this. He is relatively stressed at the moment so I can't promise if I will get the answer quickly.
(01-27-2022, 04:42 AM)SpinoRex Wrote: The tigers in Panna are measured over curves as Sunal Told me. The only areas where straight line is used is in UP (Pillibhit) and Corbett at least from the infos we have now. The method used by Sunquist is a mixture which should have just slight differences.
About M105 i agree. Using his daily food intake and possibility of being gorged his empty weight must have been exactly c.260 kg and i got also 256 kg. Even if he would be totally full (30 kg region) he still wouldnt be lower than 250 kg ig, which justifies the estimate. And combined with the Chest Girth - Weight calculation there should be no problem at all.
Also i was recently checking some datas. There was a 6-7 year old male weighed in Bhutan by the GTC. Found a twitter post by a wildlife biologist who is working "there" reporting about that as well. It was collared in 2018
I will like to add a few remarks.
Technically all the great cats are measured "over curves" by scientists so we need to know specific details of the measurement method used, if they hold the tape straight, or if they pressed the tape in all the curves of the back, or it they press it just in a few points to hold the tape, etc. (Yes, measuring over curves is a mess, it depends of who made the measurements). I saw the answer from Sunal and is a very short one and we will need more details. The straigh line method used by Dr Sunquist is the closest one to the method "between pegs", he explained this to me twice, and those from north of India look like if they used the same method. We will need more details from the tigers of Panna to actually be sure that they pressed the tape in all the contours of the back, or if they only hold the tape on the back, in a straigh form from the tip to tip, with no pressing. Those are the important details.
About the food intake of Nepalese tigers, you need to remember that none of the tigers was fully feed at the capture, again confirmed by Dr Sunquist. Also, as Fiona Sunquist describes in the book "Tiger Moon", all the tigers were disturbed at they kills, so none of them had the daily food intake, in fact if you take in count that the baits were prepared in the afternoon before sunset, that tigers killed the tigers in the pure nigh at about 8 pm (maybe latter than that) and that the capture party drived the tigers as earlier than 5 am and captures are all in the very morning, the tigers had a window of just 10 hours more or less to eat, that is not enough time to get the 14-19 kg calculated to be eat in a day. Take in cound that those meausrements of food intake were not taken during the tiger captures, as they focused in the tigers itselfs, they weighed the carcases in different situations, from tigers that were already tagged. Dr Sunquist recorded 38 events, that is more than the 15 capture events during his work time. So, capture of tigers were focused on that, and measurement of food intake was done in a different event. In conclution, the amount of food of 14 - 19 is in a 24 hours period and captured tigers that all were disturbed at they kills do not had the time to eat in full (in fact, some of them returned to continue to eat after they capture and collaring), so the amount in each tiger was less than the 24 hours intake. I explained all this process in previous posts for clarification.
I have the information of the 3 tigers from Bhutan (one male and 2 females), but I did not use it because I still don't have personal confirmation of the numbers. However I will include them now as I will add a note that these weights are reported but still not verified by me. Maybe in the future we could see a document with details of they captures.
As for the curve measurements I am sure most use the Classic Method. But I will ask Sunal again about this. He is relatively stressed at the moment so I can't promise if I will get the answer quickly.
Actually the most common protocol in India that I’ve seen is over the curves. This was mentioned by M.P. Tiger foundation when I got MV2’s weight from Kanha.
The Sugar cane male from Pilibhit was dead unfortunately when the measurements were taken during the autopsy.
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(01-27-2022, 08:35 PM)SpinoRex Wrote: I said worst case, that is, even if they had been full, the estimate of about 260 kg would be correct. It was more or less a "confirmation" from my side
Also, I don't think tigers need 24h to eat their food. 10 hours are therefore normally enough, if one calculates their sleep time (65%). But on the whole, these are only speculations, since we do not know the exact backgrounds.
As for the curve measurements I am sure most use the Classic Method. But I will ask Sunal again about this. He is relatively stressed at the moment so I can't promise if I will get the answer quickly.
If you check modern documents, the figure of 260 kg is normally used as the maximum weight for bengal tiger (Sunquist, 2010; Karanth, 2013; Jhala & Sadhu, 2017; Castello, 2020). So it seems that is accepted that 260 kg is the maximum for Bengal tigers adjusted for any stomach content. Of curse, maybe in the future this may change, but for the moment is what we have.
About the food intake, there is defintelly an schedule time to eat, as in this 10 +/- hours the tiger is not going to eat constantly, they may eat one or two hours, then rest, then other hour, than going to drink, as that, so from the 10 hours it may eat only half of the time, without taking in count the time of remouving the skin and hair. Also, we need to remember that some tigers may gorge themselves up to 34 kg, while other may eat just a mere 10 kg and leave it like that, but those individual differences are not taken in count in these studies. So, at the end, we can only speculate based in the facts, and what we have is an intake of 14 - 19 kg in 24 hours, than no tiger was gorged or fully fed, and that all tigers at kills were disturbed and did not eat in full at the baits (some returned to eat more).
On the measurement method, it is really hard to know, because I had conversations with several scientists and I can tell you that none use 100% the same method, or maybe is the form that they describe it. if Mr Sunal is bussy, don't push it, take your time, after all, is not that we can't continue with the tables. After all, I decided not the include the Panna measurements in the overall table and just live them in the modern records.
01-27-2022, 09:19 PM( This post was last modified: 01-27-2022, 09:20 PM by GuateGojira )
(01-27-2022, 09:05 PM)Pckts Wrote: Actually the most common protocol in India that I’ve seen is over the curves. This was mentioned by M.P. Tiger foundation when I got MV2’s weight from Kanha.
The Sugar cane male from Pilibhit was dead unfortunately when the measurements were taken during the autopsy.
Not quite sure:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Plus, there are two videos (one posted by SpinoRex) where it shows that they follow the straigh line in the back or at one side of the body.
So, is at some point confusing to just say "over curves", because like I said before, technically all these are meaurements "over the curves" of the body, everybody will tell you this, but the issue is IF they hold the tape straight or if they press it in a few points to hold it, or if they press the entire tape in all the curves. So especific details are very important and very few people (like Dr Sunqusit, Dr Farhadinia and Dr Athreya, for example) will take the time to fully explain the method used.
(01-27-2022, 04:42 AM)SpinoRex Wrote: The tigers in Panna are measured over curves as Sunal Told me. The only areas where straight line is used is in UP (Pillibhit) and Corbett at least from the infos we have now. The method used by Sunquist is a mixture which should have just slight differences.
About M105 i agree. Using his daily food intake and possibility of being gorged his empty weight must have been exactly c.260 kg and i got also 256 kg. Even if he would be totally full (30 kg region) he still wouldnt be lower than 250 kg ig, which justifies the estimate. And combined with the Chest Girth - Weight calculation there should be no problem at all.
Also i was recently checking some datas. There was a 6-7 year old male weighed in Bhutan by the GTC. Found a twitter post by a wildlife biologist who is working "there" reporting about that as well. It was collared in 2018
I will like to add a few remarks.
Technically all the great cats are measured "over curves" by scientists so we need to know specific details of the measurement method used, if they hold the tape straight, or if they pressed the tape in all the curves of the back, or it they press it just in a few points to hold the tape, etc. (Yes, measuring over curves is a mess, it depends of who made the measurements). I saw the answer from Sunal and is a very short one and we will need more details. The straigh line method used by Dr Sunquist is the closest one to the method "between pegs", he explained this to me twice, and those from north of India look like if they used the same method. We will need more details from the tigers of Panna to actually be sure that they pressed the tape in all the contours of the back, or if they only hold the tape on the back, in a straigh form from the tip to tip, with no pressing. Those are the important details.
About the food intake of Nepalese tigers, you need to remember that none of the tigers was fully feed at the capture, again confirmed by Dr Sunquist. Also, as Fiona Sunquist describes in the book "Tiger Moon", all the tigers were disturbed at they kills, so none of them had the daily food intake, in fact if you take in count that the baits were prepared in the afternoon before sunset, that tigers killed the tigers in the pure nigh at about 8 pm (maybe latter than that) and that the capture party drived the tigers as earlier than 5 am and captures are all in the very morning, the tigers had a window of just 10 hours more or less to eat, that is not enough time to get the 14-19 kg calculated to be eat in a day. Take in cound that those meausrements of food intake were not taken during the tiger captures, as they focused in the tigers itselfs, they weighed the carcases in different situations, from tigers that were already tagged. Dr Sunquist recorded 38 events, that is more than the 15 capture events during his work time. So, capture of tigers were focused on that, and measurement of food intake was done in a different event. In conclution, the amount of food of 14 - 19 is in a 24 hours period and captured tigers that all were disturbed at they kills do not had the time to eat in full (in fact, some of them returned to continue to eat after they capture and collaring), so the amount in each tiger was less than the 24 hours intake. I explained all this process in previous posts for clarification.
I have the information of the 3 tigers from Bhutan (one male and 2 females), but I did not use it because I still don't have personal confirmation of the numbers. However I will include them now as I will add a note that these weights are reported but still not verified by me. Maybe in the future we could see a document with details of they captures.
As for the curve measurements I am sure most use the Classic Method. But I will ask Sunal again about this. He is relatively stressed at the moment so I can't promise if I will get the answer quickly.
Actually the most common protocol in India that I’ve seen is over the curves. This was mentioned by M.P. Tiger foundation when I got MV2’s weight from Kanha.
The Sugar cane male from Pilibhit was dead unfortunately when the measurements were taken during the autopsy.
Yeah MV2 for his age was really big. The one from Pillibhit was a good sized male at least was genentically gifted in the chest area believing the numbers. How chest girth exactly collerates with weight... i personally think it does really well but only combined with length and a empty stomach.
I was cheking this other table from the asme document of the Panna tigers and I found a lot of problems, again:
*This image is copyright of its original author
The information of the females is ok, also the data of the tigers 3 and 8. So they are usefull. The problem came with the males 4 to 7, the measurements, again, do not match.
Tiger No. 4 says that is over 3 years old, so while the weight of 16 kg is very low, we can justivy it that it was not in good shape, or maybe as is a young old that was in search for a territory. However the body emasurements are too small for a tiger of that size, with a head-body of only 169 kg looks more like a subadult. The case of male 5 is even worst, with also over 3 years of age and 199 kg (which seems normal), they report a head-body of 151 cm, that is like a big leopard, not an adult tiger! However if we continue we found that make 6 and 7, which are cubs of less than 2 years, they are reported with head-body lenght os over 180 cm! So, what is going on here???
The best explanation that I can give is that they guy that make this tables mix all the data, again. Those body measuments are certainly for males 4 and 5, and the small sized correspond with the cub tigesr 6 and 7.
This is really dissapointing because we are making a lot of corrections and assumptions from this document, that at every time that I see it, it si frustrating. I don't know if I should include the males 4 and 5, with the correction, or just ignore them and include only females 1 and 2, plus male 8, as are the only ones that actually make sense.
(01-27-2022, 09:05 PM)Pckts Wrote: Actually the most common protocol in India that I’ve seen is over the curves. This was mentioned by M.P. Tiger foundation when I got MV2’s weight from Kanha.
The Sugar cane male from Pilibhit was dead unfortunately when the measurements were taken during the autopsy.
Not quite sure:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Plus, there are two videos (one posted by SpinoRex) where it shows that they follow the straigh line in the back or at one side of the body.
So, is at some point confusing to just say "over curves", because like I said before, technically all these are meaurements "over the curves" of the body, everybody will tell you this, but the issue is IF they hold the tape straight or if they press it in a few points to hold it, or if they press the entire tape in all the curves. So especific details are very important and very few people (like Dr Sunqusit, Dr Farhadinia and Dr Athreya, for example) will take the time to fully explain the method used.
The first Tiger shown is dead and the last cub as well.
Also the first Tiger actually looks to be more curved than straight, you can see the bend in the tape over the neck and shoulder.
The middle one is already collared and they look to be in the process of measuring but of course some may try "in a straight line"
But the M.P. Tiger Foundation for instance is involved in almost all of the Tiger captures throughout Kanha. Over the curves is also standard protocol for Oncafari and they've captured more modern Jaguars than any other research organization.
Most will say that between the pegs is the most accurate of any measurements which will pretty much be impossible during a capture for research purposes since that's not the point of the capture. They have a limited time and generally it's for a different reason other than measurements.
(01-27-2022, 04:42 AM)SpinoRex Wrote: The tigers in Panna are measured over curves as Sunal Told me. The only areas where straight line is used is in UP (Pillibhit) and Corbett at least from the infos we have now. The method used by Sunquist is a mixture which should have just slight differences.
About M105 i agree. Using his daily food intake and possibility of being gorged his empty weight must have been exactly c.260 kg and i got also 256 kg. Even if he would be totally full (30 kg region) he still wouldnt be lower than 250 kg ig, which justifies the estimate. And combined with the Chest Girth - Weight calculation there should be no problem at all.
Also i was recently checking some datas. There was a 6-7 year old male weighed in Bhutan by the GTC. Found a twitter post by a wildlife biologist who is working "there" reporting about that as well. It was collared in 2018
I will like to add a few remarks.
Technically all the great cats are measured "over curves" by scientists so we need to know specific details of the measurement method used, if they hold the tape straight, or if they pressed the tape in all the curves of the back, or it they press it just in a few points to hold the tape, etc. (Yes, measuring over curves is a mess, it depends of who made the measurements). I saw the answer from Sunal and is a very short one and we will need more details. The straigh line method used by Dr Sunquist is the closest one to the method "between pegs", he explained this to me twice, and those from north of India look like if they used the same method. We will need more details from the tigers of Panna to actually be sure that they pressed the tape in all the contours of the back, or if they only hold the tape on the back, in a straigh form from the tip to tip, with no pressing. Those are the important details.
About the food intake of Nepalese tigers, you need to remember that none of the tigers was fully feed at the capture, again confirmed by Dr Sunquist. Also, as Fiona Sunquist describes in the book "Tiger Moon", all the tigers were disturbed at they kills, so none of them had the daily food intake, in fact if you take in count that the baits were prepared in the afternoon before sunset, that tigers killed the tigers in the pure nigh at about 8 pm (maybe latter than that) and that the capture party drived the tigers as earlier than 5 am and captures are all in the very morning, the tigers had a window of just 10 hours more or less to eat, that is not enough time to get the 14-19 kg calculated to be eat in a day. Take in cound that those meausrements of food intake were not taken during the tiger captures, as they focused in the tigers itselfs, they weighed the carcases in different situations, from tigers that were already tagged. Dr Sunquist recorded 38 events, that is more than the 15 capture events during his work time. So, capture of tigers were focused on that, and measurement of food intake was done in a different event. In conclution, the amount of food of 14 - 19 is in a 24 hours period and captured tigers that all were disturbed at they kills do not had the time to eat in full (in fact, some of them returned to continue to eat after they capture and collaring), so the amount in each tiger was less than the 24 hours intake. I explained all this process in previous posts for clarification.
I have the information of the 3 tigers from Bhutan (one male and 2 females), but I did not use it because I still don't have personal confirmation of the numbers. However I will include them now as I will add a note that these weights are reported but still not verified by me. Maybe in the future we could see a document with details of they captures.
As for the curve measurements I am sure most use the Classic Method. But I will ask Sunal again about this. He is relatively stressed at the moment so I can't promise if I will get the answer quickly.
Actually the most common protocol in India that I’ve seen is over the curves. This was mentioned by M.P. Tiger foundation when I got MV2’s weight from Kanha.
The Sugar cane male from Pilibhit was dead unfortunately when the measurements were taken during the autopsy.
Yeah MV2 for his age was really big. The one from Pillibhit was a good sized male at least was genentically gifted in the chest area believing the numbers. How chest girth exactly collerates with weight... i personally think it does really well but only combined with length and a empty stomach.
Definitely the strongest correlation is HBL but chest girth is also very strong. Generally speaking no Tiger sub 500lbs will have a girth lower than 130 cm, it happens occasionally but not often. I believe of all the Cooch Behar Tigers captured, only 1 or 2 had sub 130 cm Chest girths but reached close to 500lbs.
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(01-27-2022, 09:46 PM)GuateGojira Wrote: I was cheking this other table from the asme document of the Panna tigers and I found a lot of problems, again:
*This image is copyright of its original author
The information of the females is ok, also the data of the tigers 3 and 8. So they are usefull. The problem came with the males 4 to 7, the measurements, again, do not match.
Tiger No. 4 says that is over 3 years old, so while the weight of 16 kg is very low, we can justivy it that it was not in good shape, or maybe as is a young old that was in search for a territory. However the body emasurements are too small for a tiger of that size, with a head-body of only 169 kg looks more like a subadult. The case of male 5 is even worst, with also over 3 years of age and 199 kg (which seems normal), they report a head-body of 151 cm, that is like a big leopard, not an adult tiger! However if we continue we found that make 6 and 7, which are cubs of less than 2 years, they are reported with head-body lenght os over 180 cm! So, what is going on here???
The best explanation that I can give is that they guy that make this tables mix all the data, again. Those body measuments are certainly for males 4 and 5, and the small sized correspond with the cub tigesr 6 and 7.
This is really dissapointing because we are making a lot of corrections and assumptions from this document, that at every time that I see it, it si frustrating. I don't know if I should include the males 4 and 5, with the correction, or just ignore them and include only females 1 and 2, plus male 8, as are the only ones that actually make sense.
It really goes to show that the hunters in past were the true experts. Researchers today aren't focused on measurements but hunters of yester-year were only focused on measurements. And when you measure 10s-100s of cats, your expertise cannot be questioned.
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01-27-2022, 10:36 PM( This post was last modified: 01-27-2022, 10:39 PM by SpinoRex )
(01-27-2022, 09:07 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(01-27-2022, 08:35 PM)SpinoRex Wrote: I said worst case, that is, even if they had been full, the estimate of about 260 kg would be correct. It was more or less a "confirmation" from my side
Also, I don't think tigers need 24h to eat their food. 10 hours are therefore normally enough, if one calculates their sleep time (65%). But on the whole, these are only speculations, since we do not know the exact backgrounds.
As for the curve measurements I am sure most use the Classic Method. But I will ask Sunal again about this. He is relatively stressed at the moment so I can't promise if I will get the answer quickly.
If you check modern documents, the figure of 260 kg is normally used as the maximum weight for bengal tiger (Sunquist, 2010; Karanth, 2013; Jhala & Sadhu, 2017; Castello, 2020). So it seems that is accepted that 260 kg is the maximum for Bengal tigers adjusted for any stomach content. Of curse, maybe in the future this may change, but for the moment is what we have.
About the food intake, there is defintelly an schedule time to eat, as in this 10 +/- hours the tiger is not going to eat constantly, they may eat one or two hours, then rest, then other hour, than going to drink, as that, so from the 10 hours it may eat only half of the time, without taking in count the time of remouving the skin and hair. Also, we need to remember that some tigers may gorge themselves up to 34 kg, while other may eat just a mere 10 kg and leave it like that, but those individual differences are not taken in count in these studies. So, at the end, we can only speculate based in the facts, and what we have is an intake of 14 - 19 kg in 24 hours, than no tiger was gorged or fully fed, and that all tigers at kills were disturbed and did not eat in full at the baits (some returned to eat more).
On the measurement method, it is really hard to know, because I had conversations with several scientists and I can tell you that none use 100% the same method, or maybe is the form that they describe it. if Mr Sunal is bussy, don't push it, take your time, after all, is not that we can't continue with the tables. After all, I decided not the include the Panna measurements in the overall table and just live them in the modern records.
Personally i think scientists should adjust the stomach content based on estimation from protocols (i.e Bertram). Yeah and i decided not asking him for some time to not spamming him.
About food intake we should just take the numbers. Overall using the average numbers for all animals should be enough. Maybe some ate more in the 3rd day than in the 2nd day as Sunquist told me. So by using the normal ranges as you said we are automatically assuming that maybe some tigers out of around 15(idk actually as some were recaptured) ate less and some ate more.
Also i was asking is the weight of c.260 kg is really just a estimate? Whats the number in Smith table... isnt it a actual weight? I would appreciate it if you can enlighten me in that regard.
(01-20-2022, 09:27 PM)GuateGojira Wrote: Weights of modern tigers - Updated
Here is an updated list of the modern records of tigers. It includes only males over 3 years old (classified as adults). This table still don't include the male of 1|70 kg from Malaysia (yet to confirm) but did include the other 5 males reported to other posters here, even the male of 285 kg gorged (I put it at 250+ kg "empty" but could be heavier).
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Save it for your records and if new information is available, I will update the tables again.
Greetings and cheers.
The information provided by Khan85 definitelly changed the results of my tables. However, while there is no problem to add the weights, the measurements did caused controversy and are problematics in some points.
The following tables contain all the body meaurements of modern Bengal tigers. The first table in each pair present the raw measurements like they are in the original document, while the second one shows the average of all the measurements (when the animals were measured more than one time). You can see the differences.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Please take in count that these are just preliminary tables made just to show the results and how they will look in the two posibilities.
I will try to contact the authors through the email in the document, but I can't guarantee anything at this moment.
Hello,
I have some more interesting data here that you might like. The tigers have been measured in a straight line in this case.
Also, the weight of M102 was 200 kg or not? Or is this based on an empty stomach? In my personal communication with Sunquist, I came to the conclusion that M105 and M102 ate an average of 19 kg of meat. One ate 56 kg and the other 57 kg in 3 days.
1- Male tiger from Corbett
Quote:Length: 190.5 cm , Total Length: 297 cm, Girth: 127 cm, Weight: 184 kg
Quote:Length: 167 cm , Total length: 269 cm, Chest Girth: 144cm, Weight: 192 kg
*This image is copyright of its original author
The old, injured Corbett male is standard size for an average Tiger. Probably around 200 kg- ish during his younger years.
The 2nd male, looks young to me, also looks to be measured very lazily. I notice that you made adjustments to the length and height to try and correct these mistakes.
For one, his shoulder height is to the bottom of the paw as well as his leg being bent and not straight and the way his body is measured is not with an extended head nor to the tip of the nose as well as his body curved and on it's side. It's almost like a mix between a straight line and curves.
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01-27-2022, 10:46 PM( This post was last modified: 01-27-2022, 10:48 PM by SpinoRex )
(01-27-2022, 10:26 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(01-27-2022, 09:21 PM)SpinoRex Wrote:
(01-27-2022, 09:05 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(01-27-2022, 08:35 PM)SpinoRex Wrote:
(01-27-2022, 06:22 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(01-27-2022, 04:42 AM)SpinoRex Wrote: The tigers in Panna are measured over curves as Sunal Told me. The only areas where straight line is used is in UP (Pillibhit) and Corbett at least from the infos we have now. The method used by Sunquist is a mixture which should have just slight differences.
About M105 i agree. Using his daily food intake and possibility of being gorged his empty weight must have been exactly c.260 kg and i got also 256 kg. Even if he would be totally full (30 kg region) he still wouldnt be lower than 250 kg ig, which justifies the estimate. And combined with the Chest Girth - Weight calculation there should be no problem at all.
Also i was recently checking some datas. There was a 6-7 year old male weighed in Bhutan by the GTC. Found a twitter post by a wildlife biologist who is working "there" reporting about that as well. It was collared in 2018
I will like to add a few remarks.
Technically all the great cats are measured "over curves" by scientists so we need to know specific details of the measurement method used, if they hold the tape straight, or if they pressed the tape in all the curves of the back, or it they press it just in a few points to hold the tape, etc. (Yes, measuring over curves is a mess, it depends of who made the measurements). I saw the answer from Sunal and is a very short one and we will need more details. The straigh line method used by Dr Sunquist is the closest one to the method "between pegs", he explained this to me twice, and those from north of India look like if they used the same method. We will need more details from the tigers of Panna to actually be sure that they pressed the tape in all the contours of the back, or if they only hold the tape on the back, in a straigh form from the tip to tip, with no pressing. Those are the important details.
About the food intake of Nepalese tigers, you need to remember that none of the tigers was fully feed at the capture, again confirmed by Dr Sunquist. Also, as Fiona Sunquist describes in the book "Tiger Moon", all the tigers were disturbed at they kills, so none of them had the daily food intake, in fact if you take in count that the baits were prepared in the afternoon before sunset, that tigers killed the tigers in the pure nigh at about 8 pm (maybe latter than that) and that the capture party drived the tigers as earlier than 5 am and captures are all in the very morning, the tigers had a window of just 10 hours more or less to eat, that is not enough time to get the 14-19 kg calculated to be eat in a day. Take in cound that those meausrements of food intake were not taken during the tiger captures, as they focused in the tigers itselfs, they weighed the carcases in different situations, from tigers that were already tagged. Dr Sunquist recorded 38 events, that is more than the 15 capture events during his work time. So, capture of tigers were focused on that, and measurement of food intake was done in a different event. In conclution, the amount of food of 14 - 19 is in a 24 hours period and captured tigers that all were disturbed at they kills do not had the time to eat in full (in fact, some of them returned to continue to eat after they capture and collaring), so the amount in each tiger was less than the 24 hours intake. I explained all this process in previous posts for clarification.
I have the information of the 3 tigers from Bhutan (one male and 2 females), but I did not use it because I still don't have personal confirmation of the numbers. However I will include them now as I will add a note that these weights are reported but still not verified by me. Maybe in the future we could see a document with details of they captures.
As for the curve measurements I am sure most use the Classic Method. But I will ask Sunal again about this. He is relatively stressed at the moment so I can't promise if I will get the answer quickly.
Actually the most common protocol in India that I’ve seen is over the curves. This was mentioned by M.P. Tiger foundation when I got MV2’s weight from Kanha.
The Sugar cane male from Pilibhit was dead unfortunately when the measurements were taken during the autopsy.
Yeah MV2 for his age was really big. The one from Pillibhit was a good sized male at least was genentically gifted in the chest area believing the numbers. How chest girth exactly collerates with weight... i personally think it does really well but only combined with length and a empty stomach.
Definitely the strongest correlation is HBL but chest girth is also very strong. Generally speaking no Tiger sub 500lbs will have a girth lower than 130 cm, it happens occasionally but not often. I believe of all the Cooch Behar Tigers captured, only 1 or 2 had sub 130 cm Chest girths but reached close to 500lbs.
I personally think that the chest circumference (on average) combined with the length can be valuable in a significant way. Length alone doesnt cut it as there is individual body structure, lifestyle.
Of course there are exceptions. With us humans it is meanwhile so that the weights are extremely random due to the individual differences in food and lifestyle.
Thanks i saw it now. The measurement methodon the one corbett male isnt the best. The length is ok but shoulderheight isnt so i recommend to exclude it.
(01-27-2022, 04:42 AM)SpinoRex Wrote: The tigers in Panna are measured over curves as Sunal Told me. The only areas where straight line is used is in UP (Pillibhit) and Corbett at least from the infos we have now. The method used by Sunquist is a mixture which should have just slight differences.
About M105 i agree. Using his daily food intake and possibility of being gorged his empty weight must have been exactly c.260 kg and i got also 256 kg. Even if he would be totally full (30 kg region) he still wouldnt be lower than 250 kg ig, which justifies the estimate. And combined with the Chest Girth - Weight calculation there should be no problem at all.
Also i was recently checking some datas. There was a 6-7 year old male weighed in Bhutan by the GTC. Found a twitter post by a wildlife biologist who is working "there" reporting about that as well. It was collared in 2018
I will like to add a few remarks.
Technically all the great cats are measured "over curves" by scientists so we need to know specific details of the measurement method used, if they hold the tape straight, or if they pressed the tape in all the curves of the back, or it they press it just in a few points to hold the tape, etc. (Yes, measuring over curves is a mess, it depends of who made the measurements). I saw the answer from Sunal and is a very short one and we will need more details. The straigh line method used by Dr Sunquist is the closest one to the method "between pegs", he explained this to me twice, and those from north of India look like if they used the same method. We will need more details from the tigers of Panna to actually be sure that they pressed the tape in all the contours of the back, or if they only hold the tape on the back, in a straigh form from the tip to tip, with no pressing. Those are the important details.
About the food intake of Nepalese tigers, you need to remember that none of the tigers was fully feed at the capture, again confirmed by Dr Sunquist. Also, as Fiona Sunquist describes in the book "Tiger Moon", all the tigers were disturbed at they kills, so none of them had the daily food intake, in fact if you take in count that the baits were prepared in the afternoon before sunset, that tigers killed the tigers in the pure nigh at about 8 pm (maybe latter than that) and that the capture party drived the tigers as earlier than 5 am and captures are all in the very morning, the tigers had a window of just 10 hours more or less to eat, that is not enough time to get the 14-19 kg calculated to be eat in a day. Take in cound that those meausrements of food intake were not taken during the tiger captures, as they focused in the tigers itselfs, they weighed the carcases in different situations, from tigers that were already tagged. Dr Sunquist recorded 38 events, that is more than the 15 capture events during his work time. So, capture of tigers were focused on that, and measurement of food intake was done in a different event. In conclution, the amount of food of 14 - 19 is in a 24 hours period and captured tigers that all were disturbed at they kills do not had the time to eat in full (in fact, some of them returned to continue to eat after they capture and collaring), so the amount in each tiger was less than the 24 hours intake. I explained all this process in previous posts for clarification.
I have the information of the 3 tigers from Bhutan (one male and 2 females), but I did not use it because I still don't have personal confirmation of the numbers. However I will include them now as I will add a note that these weights are reported but still not verified by me. Maybe in the future we could see a document with details of they captures.
As for the curve measurements I am sure most use the Classic Method. But I will ask Sunal again about this. He is relatively stressed at the moment so I can't promise if I will get the answer quickly.
Actually the most common protocol in India that I’ve seen is over the curves. This was mentioned by M.P. Tiger foundation when I got MV2’s weight from Kanha.
The Sugar cane male from Pilibhit was dead unfortunately when the measurements were taken during the autopsy.
Yeah MV2 for his age was really big. The one from Pillibhit was a good sized male at least was genentically gifted in the chest area believing the numbers. How chest girth exactly collerates with weight... i personally think it does really well but only combined with length and a empty stomach.
Definitely the strongest correlation is HBL but chest girth is also very strong. Generally speaking no Tiger sub 500lbs will have a girth lower than 130 cm, it happens occasionally but not often. I believe of all the Cooch Behar Tigers captured, only 1 or 2 had sub 130 cm Chest girths but reached close to 500lbs.
I personally think that the chest circumference (on average) combined with the length can be valuable in a significant way. Length alone doesnt cut it as there is individual body structure, lifestyle.
Of course there are exceptions. With us humans it is meanwhile so that the weights are extremely random due to the individual differences in food and lifestyle.
Thanks i saw it now. The measurement methodon the one corbett male isnt the best. The length is ok but shoulderheight isnt so i recommend to exclude it.
I forget which hunter it was but he used an equation involving length and girth to give an idea of mass. So I agree, it's good to combine both to paint a clearer picture.
(01-27-2022, 10:30 PM)Pckts Wrote: It really goes to show that the hunters in past were the true experts. Researchers today aren't focused on measurements but hunters of yester-year were only focused on measurements. And when you measure 10s-100s of cats, your expertise cannot be questioned.
I am fully agree with you on this. And that is why I decided do not mix the new body measurements with the old ones, because those were actually taken between pegs and those are going to be reflected in the final comparative image.
However, for knowledge purposes I have the other table with only modern tigers that will include the measurements of the new specimens, but definelly those small size are not going to be included as under any logic, they do not belong to adults of more than 3 years, that is sure.
(01-27-2022, 10:36 PM)SpinoRex Wrote: Also i was asking is the weight of c.260 kg is really just a estimate? Whats the number in Smith table... isnt it a actual weight? I would appreciate it if you can enlighten me in that regard.
This it the thing, the real weight of the two males from Nepal was over 272 kg as they bottomed the scale of 600 lb used by Dr Dave Smith. Sunquist used an scale of only 500 lb when he worked with male M-105, but tak in count that male M-126 was not weighed by Sunquist but by Smith. So there are two males of over 272 kg.
Now, Dr Smith made a chest girth-weight equation and got to the calculation of 261 kg for the biggest males and that is the figure that you can see in the table of Smith et al. (1983) and that is often quoted in other books. However is a calculation, not the real weight.
From my part, using the method that I explained to you, I got that the minimum weight for these two large males was of 260 kg emtpy, which is very very close to the calculation of Smith.
So, at the end, the real weight is 272+ kg, the calculated weight is 261 kg for both males, and the used figure of 260 kg is based in al this.
Modern weights and measurements on wild tigers
