Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project

[GuateGojira]

(02-01-2015, 03:56 AM)'teresek' Wrote: I respect your opinion but i totally disagree with you.
There are too many things you don't know and probably if i were in your position i would write the same stuff.

Greece is a small country with 24 national parks but still has room for a national park bigger than 700km2 far away from the big cities.
How exactly do i know it? I live here!

Kerkini lake (also a national park) for example has over 10.000 buffalos which weight range from 400 to 750kg in a 300km2 territory. It seems like they're waiting for the asiatic lion. Plus this area is near where Xerxes had fed the lions with his camels. 

Greek economy is bad but you can't imagine how many super-rich are out there. I mean billionaires who would gladly fund an extraordinary place like this. Profit is their leader after all.

Most people in greece love animals and especially cats. There is a greek forum about cats which has over 500.000 members. The population of Greece is 11 million. 

I could continue but i think you grasped the point. Greece must have lions because its people love cats. LoL

 

There is a big difference between "facts" and "feelings". I also respect your ideas and I am NOT trying to be rude, but I see more feelings than facts here, specially on the issue of "people loving cats" and "billionaires who would gladly fund lion introductions". If countries like India and Russia present great problems with they own native cats, Greek people should be very extraordinary if you think that they will just accept lions in they lands, just like that.

Introducing big predators is not an easy task, in any way, and despite your thoughts, I am pretty sure that the people that will probably live with the animals side-by-side, will not be agree to have lions like they neighbors, especially if you breed large animals like domestic buffaloes.

On the buffalo issue, I found this paper:
http://www.save-foundation.net/Conferenc...e_2011.pdf

Look this page too: http://www.mporas.gr/en/ellhnikos-vouvalos/

And this: http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/01/...or-greece/

Of course, there most be more information, but these show that those buffaloes are domesticated and introduced by humans, they are not native and predation of lions over them will be a big problem (cattle killing by large cats, the same story but in another place). Also, domestic buffaloes hardly weight more than 500 kg, and the healthy specimens average between 300 to 400 kg, depending of the feeding. Finally, check that the estimated population of buffaloes is of 3,137 specimens at 2010, still important but not as high as 10,000, according with the paper. In other words, your "solution" would be in fact, a GREAT problem, a "new bleeding in an already injured body", I don't see any of those farmers been very happy of lions killing they buffaloes.

People in forums is not the same that people living with the animals "directly". I repeat it, is not the same to "talk about the cat" and "live with the cat". Check that even in Indian, where large cats are not just "loved", but "worshiped" like gods, there is great conflict between humans and great cats.

I found that some "large" wild mammals exist in Greece, like wild pigs, red deer, fallow deer, roe deer and feral goats (no information on the weights yet). However, I would like to know which is they density and it the population will sustain direct predation by large cats. In Greece there are wolves, jackals and bears, but I think bears are more vegetarians in these regions and I have not found any data about wolf density yet.

Sorry, but you grasped no point here. We need evidence, data, prey density, habitat availability, climate disposition and human acceptance IN the area, not in the internet. If you present this data, then you will show your point.

Like I said before, I will love to see lions in Greece, but is not as easy as you think. Even the re-introduction of tigers in the Caspian region seems unlikely as those areas don't present the basic needs for tigers yet.
  Reply

[Amnon242]

I dont know much about the situation in Greece, but I think that the reintroduction of lions into Greece is just a nice romantic dream. Nothing more. Reply

[teresek]

(02-01-2015, 09:25 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote:

(02-01-2015, 03:56 AM)'teresek' Wrote: I respect your opinion but i totally disagree with you.
There are too many things you don't know and probably if i were in your position i would write the same stuff.

Greece is a small country with 24 national parks but still has room for a national park bigger than 700km2 far away from the big cities.
How exactly do i know it? I live here!

Kerkini lake (also a national park) for example has over 10.000 buffalos which weight range from 400 to 750kg in a 300km2 territory. It seems like they're waiting for the asiatic lion. Plus this area is near where Xerxes had fed the lions with his camels. 

Greek economy is bad but you can't imagine how many super-rich are out there. I mean billionaires who would gladly fund an extraordinary place like this. Profit is their leader after all.

Most people in greece love animals and especially cats. There is a greek forum about cats which has over 500.000 members. The population of Greece is 11 million. 

I could continue but i think you grasped the point. Greece must have lions because its people love cats. LoL




 

There is a big difference between "facts" and "feelings". I also respect your ideas and I am NOT trying to be rude, but I see more feelings than facts here, specially on the issue of "people loving cats" and "billionaires who would gladly fund lion introductions". If countries like India and Russia present great problems with they own native cats, Greek people should be very extraordinary if you think that they will just accept lions in they lands, just like that.

Introducing big predators is not an easy task, in any way, and despite your thoughts, I am pretty sure that the people that will probably live with the animals side-by-side, will not be agree to have lions like they neighbors, especially if you breed large animals like domestic buffaloes.

On the buffalo issue, I found this paper:
http://www.save-foundation.net/Conferenc...e_2011.pdf

Look this page too: http://www.mporas.gr/en/ellhnikos-vouvalos/

And this: http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/01/...or-greece/

Of course, there most be more information, but these show that those buffaloes are domesticated and introduced by humans, they are not native and predation of lions over them will be a big problem (cattle killing by large cats, the same story but in another place). Also, domestic buffaloes hardly weight more than 500 kg, and the healthy specimens average between 300 to 400 kg, depending of the feeding. Finally, check that the estimated population of buffaloes is of 3,137 specimens at 2010, still important but not as high as 10,000, according with the paper. In other words, your "solution" would be in fact, a GREAT problem, a "new bleeding in an already injured body", I don't see any of those farmers been very happy of lions killing they buffaloes.

People in forums is not the same that people living with the animals "directly". I repeat it, is not the same to "talk about the cat" and "live with the cat". Check that even in Indian, where large cats are not just "loved", but "worshiped" like gods, there is great conflict between humans and great cats.

I found that some "large" wild mammals exist in Greece, like wild pigs, red deer, fallow deer, roe deer and feral goats (no information on the weights yet). However, I would like to know which is they density and it the population will sustain direct predation by large cats. In Greece there are wolves, jackals and bears, but I think bears are more vegetarians in these regions and I have not found any data about wolf density yet.

Sorry, but you grasped no point here. We need evidence, data, prey density, habitat availability, climate disposition and human acceptance IN the area, not in the internet. If you present this data, then you will show your point.

Like I said before, I will love to see lions in Greece, but is not as easy as you think. Even the re-introduction of tigers in the Caspian region seems unlikely as those areas don't present the basic needs for tigers yet.
 



 

First of all, i want to say that i don't believe Greece is the best candidate in the world for the reintroduction of the asiatic lion.
I just said is a better option than Turkey and Iran. Makes sense if you think that countries with stoning as punishment today will care and protect better wild animals!

In summary i consider that the reintroduction of asiatic lion could be possible in Greece. 
Now I will not debate with you and surely i won't spend a few hours of my life to prove you my previous statement. It's pointless because i don't gain anything except that i have right in the end. Things change if you're a billionaire and you're reading this 
 
From your point of view there is no country on planet earth that meets the standards for the relocation of the asiatic lion. 

 

  Reply

[Amnon242]

One small remark: there is no stoning punishment in Turkey. Perhaps in Iran...but as far as I know, the animal conservation is quite good in Iran. BTW some people in Iran think about reintroduction of caspian tiger...in Golestan park, I think.

BTW I visited Iran couple of years ago, and I was pleasantly surprised by the country, its culture and its people. I personaly dont consider them to be some kind of barbarians. Reply

[Pckts]

(02-01-2015, 08:43 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote:

(01-31-2015, 11:58 PM)'Pckts' Wrote: I agree that greece is not fit for a Lion reintroduction program.
I am not sure what you mean with the Wolves in Yellowstone refference, but woves have absolutely become extremely successful there and infact, they have helped subside the ever growing elk population that became to much and started eating way many plants that used to grow frequent. I posted the story on another thread here.


 

What I mean with the wolves in Yellowstone is not about the wolves it selves, but about the people. The people protested against the release of wolves, they even tried to stop the releases with boycots, because they said that the wolves will attack they animals, living in the vicinities, that is what I tried to say. Wolves has been very successful in that area, alhtough the only problems has been for pumas, which are now under preasure of wolves and they normally steal they kills.

In november of 2013, an article of Douglas Chadwick in National Geographic Magazine stated that the behaviour of the cougars is changing in those areas where wolves has been reintroduced and they seems to be more "social" in order to protect they kills and they cubs. However, he also accept the fact the maybe, the "new" behaviour could be in fact, the real behaviour previous to the extermination of the wolves in so many parts of the USA. It is an interesting article, if you can found it, read it. I can scan the pages, but they are in Spanish.
 

 

"The people" were actually the wool farmers. Because the wolves would attack their sheep, but that is non sense. Wolves belong there and have stimulated the economy and over all health of the forest. Its like a smaller version of corporate non sense. The minute you affect somebodies monetary gain, it makes that thing "BAD". Which is absurd.

The Puma #s are actually stable and have not really shifted one way or another, and while some areas have seen the occasional puma predation by wolves other areas have seen wolves being preyed upon by puma. Depends on the tree cover which is a means for escape for the puma. But both of these animals have coexisted for ever, they will always find ways to survive together.

I would like to read that article if you ever find time. I great doc to watch is with Bone smith which was done a year or two ago.

Here is the doc title
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/wi...y-2075004/


  Reply

[Pckts]

(02-01-2015, 10:38 PM)'Amnon242' Wrote: One small remark: there is no stoning punishment in Turkey. Perhaps in Iran...but as far as I know, the animal conservation is quite good in Iran. BTW some people in Iran think about reintroduction of caspian tiger...in Golestan park, I think.

BTW I visited Iran couple of years ago, and I was pleasantly surprised by the country, its culture and its people. I personaly dont consider them to be some kind of barbarians.

 

Every time I go over seas I leave with the same feeling. You know nothing about a culture or country until you step foot there. Every place is different but the same. There are good peopel everywhere, most people want to do good I believe. But those stories don't make headlines nor do they help these poorer countries receive $ from news stations for their stories. News stations only want to show graphic viewer grabbing headlines and those are the only stories they will buy. Thats why americans perception is usually so different from what its actually like to go to these places. At least from my expierences.

  Reply

[GuateGojira]

(02-03-2015, 11:02 PM)'Pckts' Wrote: "The people" were actually the wool farmers. Because the wolves would attack their sheep, but that is non sense. Wolves belong there and have stimulated the economy and over all health of the forest. Its like a smaller version of corporate non sense. The minute you affect somebodies monetary gain, it makes that thing "BAD". Which is absurd.

The Puma #s are actually stable and have not really shifted one way or another, and while some areas have seen the occasional puma predation by wolves other areas have seen wolves being preyed upon by puma. Depends on the tree cover which is a means for escape for the puma. But both of these animals have coexisted for ever, they will always find ways to survive together.

I would like to read that article if you ever find time. I great doc to watch is with Bone smith which was done a year or two ago.

Here is the doc title
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/wi...y-2075004/

 

The important thing is that you finally get the point, people however they are, protested, that was my point. On the wolf side, there is no problem, like I stated before, they are going very well in many places where they have been reintroduced.

On the puma issue, the article from NatGeo magazine don't mention population numbers, but at least in Yellowstone, they are been affected, because wolves are dominant over pumas, in that particular area. I have never argue about the fact that wolves and pumas have coexisted, that is a obvious fact. What I said is that now that they are together again, and with scientific techniques, scientists are discovering "new" behaviors on pumas, but maybe those "new" are actually the "original" ones, before humans changed the primal habitat. That is the point of Chadwick too.
  Reply

[GuateGojira]

(02-01-2015, 08:44 PM)'teresek' Wrote: First of all, i want to say that i don't believe Greece is the best candidate in the world for the reintroduction of the asiatic lion.
I just said is a better option than Turkey and Iran. Makes sense if you think that countries with stoning as punishment today will care and protect better wild animals!

In summary i consider that the reintroduction of asiatic lion could be possible in Greece. 
Now I will not debate with you and surely i won't spend a few hours of my life to prove you my previous statement. It's pointless because i don't gain anything except that i have right in the end. Things change if you're a billionaire and you're reading this 
 
From your point of view there is no country on planet earth that meets the standards for the relocation of the asiatic lion. 

 

Definitely, you don't even understand what I tried to say to you.

This is not about who is right and who is wrong, is about evidence. You said that in Greece existed great parks and that in a particular place there were 10,000 buffaloes that could be prey for lions. The problem is that you misinterpreted this evidence, as the "parks" of Greece are not suited for great cats and the actually c.4,000 buffaloes are domestic, not even feral, so they CAN'T be prey for lions, that will be a huge problem and will create another human-lion conflict.

About the billionaire issue, I don't get the point of it. Are you billionaire??? Are you going to "invest" in the introduction of lions in Greece???

Finally, NO ONE is saying that there are no countries with suitable places to reintroduce lions. I only said that Greece is a bad place, that is all. Is you who are saying that Iran or Turkey are bad places, without knowing the situation in those areas.

Morocco is a good place for lion reintroduction, also Iran and of course, other areas in India. The point of this is that the lion get extinct from this places a "few" years ago. Barbary lions disappeared from the north of Africa in the early 90's and from Middle east between 1940 to 1960, as far I remember, so in Biological terms, the time is pretty short, but lions disappeared from Greece since the times of Christ. However, even in the places that I have mentioned, it will take time before any great cat could be released. I have already mentioned what is needed to make such a study, so I am not going to repeat the same thing again.

Hope you could use Science, evidence and logic, instead of the liver and the misguided patriotism.
  Reply

[Krillow]

I think Asian lions would thrive throughout India.  Their main threat being humans, and crossing into civilization.  I think tigers, and lions can coexist no problem.  Of course occasional conflicts may arrise.  That's the case with every animals though.  Sloth bears, rhinos, elephants, tigers.   Natural conflicts occur. Historically tigers, and lions coexisted in India, the way it should be.  If not for humans, and poaching.  And I do think that tigers, and lions would stay our of each others way for the most part.  Tigers wouldn't pose a risk to relocating the lions, but like with all animals a rare conflict may happen. Reply

[Roflcopters]

(03-28-2015, 03:54 AM)'Krillow' Wrote: I think Asian lions would thrive throughout India.  Their main threat being humans, and crossing into civilization.  I think tigers, and lions can coexist no problem.  Of course occasional conflicts may arrise.  That's the case with every animals though.  Sloth bears, rhinos, elephants, tigers.   Natural conflicts occur. Historically tigers, and lions coexisted in India, the way it should be.  If not for humans, and poaching.  And I do think that tigers, and lions would stay our of each others way for the most part.  Tigers wouldn't pose a risk to relocating the lions, but like with all animals a rare conflict may happen.


 

Tigers and Lions have never co-existed in the past and nor will they ever in the near future, also if you did your research on Asiatic Lions properly. you'd know that there's no place besides Gir Forest for them in India. Everywhere else is far too close to tiger territories and that is going to be chaotic for not only the conversationists but the species themselves. Ultimately, one cat will greatly suffer. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

some of the Tiger Reserves shown on the Map of India, tell me exactly where the lions would go for relocation. Also, the area north of Corbett is the Terai Arc Landscape with a large population of tigers in the forests. 





 

  Reply

[Pckts]

Its even pointless to discuss at this point since the Gir refuses to give up any individuals to relocate.
But my feeling about coexistence is this
-Tigers have spent milions of years evolving to a certain type of habitat and lions to a different type. Asiatic lions have already been forced to evolve towards a small pride and lone male or very small # coalition because of the way the Gir's terain is. If they moved on to a more tiger friendly place they are going to have to seperate into even smaller #'s.
A tiger or lion claims territory, these lions in tiger territories are going to be looked at as intruders. Fights will occur just like they do now with the same species. There is not enough space for the tigers in the reserves now, so unless they want to protect all of india and create large enough space for both incase one needs to escape and find new territory, this is a pipe dream I think.  Reply

[Amnon242]

(03-28-2015, 03:54 AM)'Krillow' Wrote: I think Asian lions would thrive throughout India.  Their main threat being humans, and crossing into civilization.  I think tigers, and lions can coexist no problem.  Of course occasional conflicts may arrise.  That's the case with every animals though.  Sloth bears, rhinos, elephants, tigers.   Natural conflicts occur. Historically tigers, and lions coexisted in India, the way it should be.  If not for humans, and poaching.  And I do think that tigers, and lions would stay our of each others way for the most part.  Tigers wouldn't pose a risk to relocating the lions, but like with all animals a rare conflict may happen.

 

I think that the relocation would be dangerous for both, especially for females and subadults.

Tigers and lions coexisted in Asia, but they lived in different habitat. If they are forced to share the same area, conflict would arise. Their relation would be different from the relation of tigers x leopards x bears. They would be direct competitors.

  Reply

[Spalea]

@Amnon242 Yes, I'm agree: Tigers and leopards are pure predator, this is not the case of the bears. Leopards can coexist with tigers because being clearly smaller their preys are different or if they are identical the tigers will hunt the adults while the leopards will prefer the youngs or subadults. However as concerns the lions the problem would be different, tigers and lions hunting the same preys, thus conflicts would be unavoidable, I think... Reply

[Pckts]

(03-30-2015, 09:47 PM)'Spalea' Wrote: @Amnon242 Yes, I'm agree: Tigers and leopards are pure predator, this is not the case of the bears. Leopards can coexist with tigers because being clearly smaller their preys are different or if they are identical the tigers will hunt the adults while the leopards will prefer the youngs or subadults. However as concerns the lions the problem would be different, tigers and lions hunting the same preys, thus conflicts would be unavoidable, I think...

 

I don't even think it matters what prey the other preys on, just look at lions and leopards or Tigers and leopards.
Both of them will kill a leopard any chance they get. Imagine what there response would be to another cat that would obviously be a threat to territory or their young.
  Reply

[Amnon242]

(03-30-2015, 09:57 PM)'Pckts' Wrote: I don't even think it matters what prey the other preys on, just look at lions and leopards or Tigers and leopards.
Both of them will kill a leopard any chance they get. Imagine what there response would be to another cat that would obviously be a threat to territory or their young.

 

Yes, tiger would attack and kill leopard anytime, but Spaleas point is that leopards can still coexist with tigers in the same area quite well because they hunt rather different prey, smaller animals...and they can escape to trees. This is ofc not the case of tigers and lions - same prey and unability to escape to trees.

I think quite interesting question is this: tigers are territorial and they respect territories of other tigers. Imagine that a tiger (lord of a territory) is killed by lion - immigrant. Would the lion respect the borders with his tiger neighbors? And would the lion be respected by tigers as a lord of a territory?

Yes, there are territorial fight among tigers, but usual result of this fight is draw (and respect of each other) or submission of one of the tigers. Yes, sometimes the fight ends with death of one of the combatants. But what would be the result of such a territorial fight between combatants of different species? Would they be able to accept draw as a result and respect the boundaries?
  Reply