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Size comparisons
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 (08-26-2019, 03:22 AM)Styx38 Wrote: They're looking at the Mexican jaguar, calling it "huge" and being "200lb+" which are both wrong; they're not huge and weigh around 50kg (110lb). But when asking which is bigger, in this case it is indeed the leopard overall since they're not talking about which subspecies but still are comparing it with this particular Mexican jaguar. That's why this subject is so interesting; they overlap in size and weight which leads to such discussions. For example, I could claim that Indian leopards are bigger than Peruvian jaguars since 2 Peruvian Amazon males weighed 31 and 37kg. In this case I'm correct but when asking overall who's the bigger cat, it's the jaguar. I'm just against the general people claiming things like "jaguars are twice as big as a leopard"/ "jaguars weigh 100kg, leopards only 65kg"/ "jaguars are leopards on steroids". The reality is that the difference between them is closer than people really think.  (08-26-2019, 11:24 AM)Luipaard Wrote:(08-26-2019, 03:22 AM)Styx38 Wrote: This Joe Rogan program is never a good source for any facts :) I have watched some clips but it´s always the same, facts and fiction are mixed there and sloppy statements. Like now this Forrest Galante said, that leopards would be bigger and he said it after Joe Rogan was talking about 200 lbs Jaguars. That alone tells about quality of that.... is that "Joe Rogan show" or whatever. Also undermines credibility of this Forrest Galante as professional if he really is a biologist. Maybe it is that environment (studio with Rogan) and status which Joe Rogan has as an celebrity in USA which make people to get nervous and give odd statements. That show is more like some people in pub talking this and that and not paying too much attention what they say, so in a brief moment they can say things, which they wouldn´t say again after some consideration. Of course if someone is for instance marine biologist, they can have wrong impressions about terrestrial animals. We have also these quite low quality "documentaries" like Animal face-off etc. from past, which were only sloppy entertainment for kids, most probably catching viewers and money from advertisers. Same as that megalodon crap from shark week. Anyway yes, overlapping is a fact what comes to size and weight of jaguars and leopards. Another fact is, that after seeing this program, obviously Forrest Galante gave a good reason for people to ask, that does he know about what he is talking about, because in that program he said himself a statement, which is against common knowledge and I have never seen any big cat expert saying that. Obviously he isn´t a big cat expert.  (08-24-2019, 03:14 PM)Luipaard Wrote: From The Journal of the Bombay Natural History Society by W. S. Millard and R. A. Spence (date of publication 1st July 1920) (source) LUIPAARD There was quite a debate about this skull in the Journal of the Bombay Natural History Society. In the end, it was concluded that the skull of Mr. Limouzin belonged to a tigress. Large leopards have been shot and measured in India though. Some time ago, I posted about a book written by Lt.-Col. M.M. Ismael ('Call of the tiger', London, 1964). One of the chapters ('The old tiger and the big leopard of Magardeh', pp. 94-147) is about an alliance between a very old tiger and a large male leopard. Ismael shot the leopard: " ... I have never seen a leopard of that size and build. Later when I measured him he was 7 feet 10 inches between pegs, which is almost as big as a tigress. He had a massive head and a heavy and powerfully built body ... " (Ismael, pp. 136). I also posted about a large male leopard shot in India not so long ago. That male, well over 8 feet in total length measured 'over curves', was 85 kg. (188 pounds). CHUI Very interesting posts on the size of exceptional leopards. Appreciated. I knew about your table (got it from our member 'Luipaard'), but never saw a skull exceeding 245 mm. in greatest total length in natural history museums. Same for private collections. My guess is most skulls of exceptional individuals are in private collections. Same for tigers, so it seems. Sexual dimorphism seems to be quite outspoken in leopards. Same for individual variation. Any idea as to the reasons?  (08-25-2019, 09:56 PM)chui_ Wrote:(07-15-2019, 07:56 PM)GuateGojira Wrote: I will add something in this point. I had a direct conversation with Dr Hoogesteijn about the weight of the large jaguar of 148 kg. He mention that he used bait to capture him, so I told him that probably the weight of the animal was between 130 - 140 kg, however he corrected me and he told me that they used chickens to attract the jaguars so he personally told me that the amount eat by the jaguar was only about 4-5 kg, so the empty belly weight of that Pantanal jaguar was probably of no less than 143 kg, based on this evidence. As far I know, this is still the scientific record of any jaguar in the world. 1- About the weight of the 148 kg Jaguar: I had many conversations with Dr Rafael Hoogesteijn and I can tell you that he personally told me that the bait was no more than 4-5 kg and here is his email:  *This image is copyright of its original author The email is in Spanish, but as you can see, I also told him that the weight "empty" was probably of about 130 kg, but he corrected me. Also, if in the video (which I had saw and posted here in the past) says that it appeared fat, in any case mention that it was gorged, or full or anything, it just mention "fat" and that is all (certainly I will see the video again). If De Almeida (a very accurate observer) did not found any jaguar larger than 120 kg, that doesn't mean that in modern times bigger jaguars do not exist, exceptional or not, so the record of c.140 kg "empty, at least" stands very well for Pantanal jaguars. 2- Sunquist and the leopards of South Africa: I don't have the original document of Peter Turnbull-Kemp, so I just quoted what Sunquist & Sunquist (2002). However I remembered that they say "South Africa" but I was just quoting from memory and now that I checked they just say "African male leopards" overall:  *This image is copyright of its original author So my mistake. Actually is Nowell & Jackson (1996) who said that leopards in South Africa, specifically in Kruger NP, weighed over 91 kg:  *This image is copyright of its original author There is a tendency in popular litterature that leopards in South Africa did reached the 90 kg, but based in your statements this is without justification. 3- On the Persian leopards: I checked the document "Patterns of sexual dimorphism in the Persian Leopard (Panthera pardus saxicolor) and implications for sex differentiation" and I could not found any reference that the measurements and weights were taken from specimens that were killed. I think is posible as it says that they use several sources, but can you show the confirmation of your specific statements please? Now, about the method of capture, I mentioned because, as you can see, the other posters are debating about the reliability of the records from Iran, so I clearly stated that I don't know the capture methods and I guess that those captured where with snares, after all in my conversations with Dr Farhadinia I just asked him about the measuring methods, not about the origin of the specimens. Finally, about the 115 kg leopard, they vouched that is correct and confirmed but was excluded from the analisys just because is an exceptional figure. However, I see a discrepancy in the pictures, the first two shows a relatively large specimen but the third one shows a very small one:  *This image is copyright of its original author I this record reliable? I think it is as it is accepted by the experts in Iran, but it did included stomach content? I don't know, yet. (08-26-2019, 07:36 PM)GuateGojira Wrote: 2- Sunquist and the leopards of South Africa: Hello GuateGojira You can see the source for their statement about 90kg+ African leopards as indicated by the number 14 is Turnbull-Kemp’s 1967 book. However, they have slightly misquoted him, he did not say that most of those leopards had full stomachs. As I pointed out in my last post and as can be seen from the scan of the book, he said of the 7 records he considered reliable, 3 had at least some food in the stomach (not that they had full stomachs), for 3 he had no info on stomach content, and 1 was with empty stomach. Although, an excellent resource overall, there are some errors in Sunquist’s book, but that can be forgiven considering how comprehensive it is. But it is always best to go to the original source when possible. Unfortunately, Turnbull-Kemp did not provide specifics of the 7 records he was referring to so it would be hard to verify them. The only 200lb+ leopard I know of which was recorded before 1967 and thus may have been one of the 7 he’s talking about is the 212lb leopard shot by G. Munn on Mt Kenya in 1964 – this leopard had the biggest skull from Kenya recorded in Rowland Ward with a total score of 18.75”. It is the heaviest weight recorded for a leopard I consider reliable. All other leopards weighed around 200lbs or more I know of were recorded after 1967 and therefore would be different specimens than the ones Turnbull-Kemp was talking about. The confusion about those 90kg+ leopards being from South Africa (Kruger specifically) possibly comes from Ted Bailey’s excellent book, The African Leopard (based on his research in Kruger NP). In the book Bailey makes mention of Turnbull-Kemp’s statement about 90kg+ leopards while discussing the size of Kruger leopards he had collared. It’s possible some researcher’s while reading this book may have mistakenly assumed that the statement referred to Kruger leopards specifically since that was the main topic of the book and also becuase Turnbull-Kemp did work in Kruger NP as well. The greatest weight I know of for a Kruger leopard is 201lb, for a specimen captured alive by chief game warden Bruce Bryden. It was mentioned in the book, Country Boy in Africa by George Hoffman. No idea about stomach content. There are couple other reliable records around 85-90kg from Kruger or nearby areas but in my opinion 80kg (around 30% greater than average) would be the normal max for a Kruger leopard (equivalent to a 130kg Pantanal jaguar). Anything over would be very exceptional and probably with some stomach fill. They get bigger in other places IMO. Quote:1- About the weight of the 148 kg Jaguar: As can be clearly seen from the dates of the emails, Dr. Hoojensteijn told me (in 2016) after he had the discussion with you (in 2015) that 10-15kg could be subtracted for meat in the stomach (I simply asked him if it was empty stomach or not – I did not try to tell him what the empty stomach weight should be because I am in no position to tell him). So I don’t see why we must assume it was only 4-5kg since he has also stated up to 15kg, he’s obviously not too sure. We will probably never know exactly how much meat that jag had in the stomach as even those who weighed him can only speculate and arguing about that seems pointless. But in my opinion, with everything I have read on the subject, an empty stomach weight of 140kg is very extreme for a jaguar (Tony Almeida was even more conservative, he suggested absolute max of 130kg with empty stomach, 150kg with full stomach). I never said jaguar’s beyond Almeida’s recorded max of 119kg can’t exist. They probably do but the point is they would be pretty exceptional, definitely beyond 130kg, very exceptional. But if you look at online discussions people seem to think every other big male in the Pantanal is 140 or 150kg. Quote:Very interesting posts on the size of exceptional leopards. Appreciated. I knew about your table (got it from our member 'Luipaard'), but never saw a skull exceeding 245 mm. in greatest total length in natural history museums. Same for private collections. My guess is most skulls of exceptional individuals are in private collections. Same for tigers, so it seems. Hello Peter Most of those skulls including the very largest one are from museum collections – all are from scientific publications. Point is there are plenty of leopard skulls over 270mm in length or 17” total score (without even going into hunting records). The extreme sexual dimorphism in leopards would be due to a combination of intense inter male competition for mating along with more pronounced resource partitioning between the sexes. I think especially the latter, in Kruger for example, both males and females mostly prey on impala but the second most important prey for males is warthogs while for females it is duikers. Suids such as warthogs, bushpig, red river hogs, wild boar require long grueling struggles to take down requiring greater strength and size than is needed for even similar sized nimble prey. In Gabon, there are no impalas or anything similar, so it seems males have shifted more exclusively to suids (red river hogs) and females to smaller duikers – this seems to have lead to even more extreme sexual dimorphism. Males in Gabon often completely dwarf the females, they look like they’re 2-3x as big. In contrast, the relatively lower sexual dimorphism in jaguars is probably due to both reduced male to male competition and lack of resource partitioning between the sexes (males and females hunt the same prey mostly). Interestingly, male jaguars also completely lack any distinct secondary sex traits which are present in the other 3 big pantherines. The male lion of course has the mane, male leopards have dewlaps, and even male tigers have ruffs which are usually bigger than those of females. These features probably all help males signal their quality to potential rivals and mates – this is important when competition is intense for mating. The lion’s mane and the male leopard’s dewlap may also offer some protection during fights. (08-26-2019, 11:09 PM)chui_ Wrote: Hello GuateGojiraVery interesting information about the leopard studies, thank you for sharing that. So it seems that it was a confusion between sources and areas. Now, we have a better clarification of the case. When you make a book with such a huge quantity of sources, like those books of Sunquist & Sunquist of Nowell & Jackson, there are many posiblities of errors, but like you say, we need to understant that there is a great effort in the making of these big books and so we can can be forgiven this errors. About the stomach content of the jaguar, I originally estimated a weight of about 130 kg empty, also based in De Almeida, but after the conversation with Dr Hoojensteijn I returned with the figure of 143 kg, but I will double check with him again, just to see which is his final opinion now at 2019.
@peter
Quote:There was quite a debate about this skull in the Journal of the Bombay Natural History Society. In the end, it was concluded that the skull of Mr. Limouzin belonged to a tigress Do you have any prove for that? I received the link of Journal of the Bombay Natural History Society from a very knowledgeable person and he questions if it's a tigress although he does admit: Quote:It could be there are many strange skulls. keep in mind that skulls of big cats are extremely variable and sometime overlap phonologically - some leopards are lion-like, some more like tigers, the same of the jaguars , also some tiger skulls look like lions - what is written in the books and publications is simplified, reality is a lot more complex.  Quote:I never said jaguar’s beyond Almeida’s recorded max of 119kg can’t exist. They probably do but the point is they would be pretty exceptional, definitely beyond 130kg, very exceptional. But if you look at online discussions people seem to think every other big male in the Pantanal is 140 or 150kg.Jaguars in the Pantanal easily get over 130kg, Adriano is a 130kg Jaguar measured by Panthera and when discussing him with Paulo, Paulo said there are a few that are definitely larger than he is, I saw a couple with my own eyes. Jaguars and especially Caiman were hunted to near extinction and are still hunted but not nearly to the extent they were in the past. They were literally killing Caiman by the 100s of 1000s each year and the Jaguars suffered right along side. Also to note is that Panthera captures Jaguars on their private land which is flat and further away from the 3 rivers meeting point where you have the largest Caiman and Jaguars. It's also shown to be true since you have the highest density of Caiman and Jaguar there as well. Up to 65 adult individuals ID'd in this area alone. Can some Jaguar travel too and from the Panthera farm to the Meeting of the 3 rivers, of course. But regardless, the resident Males in the meeting of the 3 Rivers are the biggest and strongest Jaguars in the Pantanal and that is including North or South. Marley, the male I've mentioned before is an Outlier, he's smaller and was born and raised in the Pantanal, he never left. Almost all young Jaguars are kicked out of the Meeting of the 3 rivers and never seen again, it's a place that only the strongest males survive. I've seen large Leopards in person, I'm fairly confident in my estimations and I think I have enough experience to make a valid claim. The largest Leopard I've seen would probably be in that 70-80kg mark but in no way does it compare to Marley, the smaller Male Jaguar I spoke of earlier. But assuming Marley is the average 100kg Jaguar I can guarantee there are many Jaguars in N. Pantanal that are much larger than he is, I don't know if they all are 130kg+ but I know a few that I've seen are. Jaguars always look full, they are extremely stocky Cats with huge heads, the only time you'll ever see them looking "empty" is usually after an injury when hunting is tough. But more common they will be full to the brim but they are still extremely active, the most active cat I've viewed to date to be honest and even when you think they are "full" they are still out on the hunt so obviously they're hungry still. 142kg Jaguar weighed, caught via snare trap In regards to Cattle Kills, in the Pantanal some cattle is of course killed, but it's usually during the floods and it's actually females that are the more common culprit, usually females with cubs to be more specific. But nothing comes close to the Caiman, Caiman are by far the most predated animal in the N. Pantanal and there is direct correlation to Caiman number increases contributing to Jaguar number increases. Quote:In contrast, the relatively lower sexual dimorphism in jaguars is probably due to both reduced male to male competition and lack of resource partitioning between the sexes (males and females hunt the same prey mostly). Interestingly, male jaguars also completely lack any distinct secondary sex traits which are present in the other 3 big pantherines. The male lion of course has the mane, male leopards have dewlaps, and even male tigers have ruffs which are usually bigger than those of females. These features probably all help males signal their quality to potential rivals and mates – this is important when competition is intense for mating. The lion’s mane and the male leopard’s dewlap probably also offer protection during fights. Competition in the Pantanal is unlike any other place on earth that I've seen for Wild Big Cats. There is a reason why Jaguars leave and never return and the ones that do are massive and must come in right away and fight off all others in the area. Jaguar males are larger and have a much denser skull and body when compared to females. They also have a more "grumpy looking face," they almost look like their eyes are closed, their head is just filled with muscle and it causes them to squint almost. The Females are also very impressive in the Pantanal, that is due to the massive amount of prey available to them and the relative ease in which they can catch it. But like all big cats, I've seen huge males that would dwarf smaller females and I saw huge females that were almost the size of smaller males, even 1 female who I'd wager was as large as Marley, the smaller male. Sexual Dimorphism is ever present there just like it is in all locations, just not to the extent you'd see even in Los Llanos, But that is only because Los Llanos has similar sized males but the females are a decent amount smaller. But since both Male and Female in the Pantanal hunt similar sized Caiman and Capyvara for the most part you see the females starting to become larger. You even see this in Kanha, both my self and @Pantherinae have seen the largest females Cats in the wild there, but @Pantherinae said he thought the males were similar sized to males he'd seen elsewhere, I didn't have the same opinion as him when it came to the Males but with out a doubt the females there are huge. Kanha, like the Pantanal is a unique place with certain factors that contributes to a larger cat and some of those factors must benefit females even more so than Males. Or at least females have more room to grow while a Large male usually can be a large male no matter the location, but the abundance of large males seems to be location dependent. (08-27-2019, 12:31 AM)Pckts Wrote: Jaguars in the Pantanal easily get over 130kg, Adriano is a 130kg Jaguar measured by Panthera and when discussing him with Paulo, Paulo said there are a few that are definitely larger than he is, I saw a couple with my own eyes. Where do I begin. The video you've posted of the jaguar being weighed shows the same specimen we were talking about above. It was apparently weighed at 315lb (143kg) but then they said someone was holding the head so they added 5kg to account for that to get to 148kg. But they did not subtract for stomach content! The video you posted is edited and cuts off right before they say he’s just eaten and appears fat but not overly gorged. Here is the end of the video without that part being cut out. With regards to all the huge male jaguars in prime territories. Here is a video showing an interaction between Marely (a small, less impressive male according to you) and Scarface, a 12 year old dominant male. Not only does the dominant male not look any bigger, he is clearly more submissive. He literally has his tail between his legs, a well known sign of fear/anxiety, the only time I've seen a male big cat show such hesitation in a fight. So I don't buy your whole idea of super intense competition among these jaguars, I'll stick with the science. The jaguar is an incredibly powerful and impressive cat, it does not need exaggerations. Quote:The video you've posted of the jaguar being weighed shows the same specimen we were talking about above. It was apparently weighed at 315lb (143kg) but then they said someone was holding the head so they added 5kg to account for that to get to 148kg. But they did not subtract for stomach content!So you somehow decided to downgrade it based off a 5kg claim on holding a head and not deducting stomach content because he's "fat but not overly full" I suggest you read what I wrote about how Pantanal Jags actually look all the time. Now onto Marley, how do you think he compares to the Jaguar in this Video? This is Balwin, one of the Males Larger than Adriano for Comparison. He fights and beats Marley bad here, you can also see the large size difference between the two. Quote:He literally has his tail between his legs, a well known sign of fear/anxiety, the only time I've seen a male big cat show such hesitation in a fight. So I don't buy your whole idea of super intense competition among these jaguars, I'll stick with the science. And in that video you posted, Marley had already beaten up that exact male a week earlier as well, he is submitting while trying to save face. He actually wasn't seen really after this. I also fail to see a Cat being Submissive to another some how reflecting a "lack in competition?" Marley is an extremely impressive Cat, I've spoken about him here numerous times. What makes him impressive? 1. He was born in the Meeting of the 3 rivers and he never left, never was kicked out. 2.He's small yet territory holding and has fought and won many fights and lost as well. 3.He's just about 4 years old, still young and able to fight off the bigger, stronger Jags most of the time and refuses to be pushed out. So when it comes to "science" you might be better suited to listen to the Zoologist who's toured the Pantanal and Amazon all his life, and is one of 2 people in the entire Pantanal who keeps the up to date ID file on all the cats, Along with Paul Donahue instead of jumping to some conclusion based off a video you have no backstory on nor know what the entire encounter entailed. (08-27-2019, 11:49 PM)Pckts Wrote:Quote:The jaguar is an incredibly powerful and impressive cat, it does not need such silly exaggerations.I suggest you throw out your pompous attitude, I've seen these cats in person, you've not. I've spoken to all these guides in person, you've had an email responded to. About the "I've seen them in person so I know what I'm talking about" argument... Going on a trip and see them in real life for sure is something everyone wants to do here I assume. I for example simply don't have the budget while I would love to go to Sri Lanka or the Masai Mara. I would give everything I've got but I simply can't so I turn out to be an enthousiast with a passion for leopards. Kudos to you for seeing these magnificent animals, I'm really jealous. Also you're talking about attitude while you're talking to someone who helped Xavier Hubert-Brierre identify the leopards in Gabon so I suggest you too tone down. Being a traveller doesn't make anyone smarter. In fact he is. To be honest sometimes you can be stubborn/arrogant to others. Quote:Oh I was so waiting for that argument. The "I've seen them in person so I know what I'm talking about" argumentYou seem to be missing the point, outside of seeing habitat, prey and weather first hand you get to talk to people like Paulo, I get to sit down with him and all others who've been involved in the Pantanal for their lives and ask them all the questions I can muster and bounce ideas off them on top of getting their points of view. That is one of the major benefits of going to these places and that is the point I'm trying to make. Quote:Also you're talking about attitude while you're talking to someone who helped Xavier Hubert-Brierre identify the leopards in Gabon so I suggest you tone down the attitude. Being a touris doesn't make anything smarter. In fact he is.Whatever "attitude" I'm speaking with was a direct result of what was written prior. I'm not sure what ID'ing he's done with Xavier, but regardless it doesn't give you the right to speak in a condescending tone. I've never said I'm smarter than anyone, nor do a make claims that someone else is smarter than me or anyone else. So no need to do that. (08-28-2019, 12:40 AM)Pckts Wrote:Quote:Oh I was so waiting for that argument. The "I've seen them in person so I know what I'm talking about" argumentYou seem to be missing the point, outside of seeing habitat, prey and weather first hand you get to talk to people like Paulo, I get to sit down with him and all others who've been involved in the Pantanal for their lives and ask them all the questions I can muster and bounce ideas off them on top of getting their points of view. Quote:I get to sit down with him and all others who've been involved in the Pantanal for their lives and ask them all the questions I can muster and bounce ideas off them on top of getting their points of view. Well how about that, as you may have read in the 'Rainforest leopards' thread, I'm about to get in touch with Philipp Henschel once he's back in his office in Gabon. So I can "sit down with him' behind my computer and can finally prove to you that these particular leopards are larger than other leopard populations/species bar Persian leopards. Skull data or photographic evidence didn't convince you since you've seen leopards on safari in real life. The largest leopard you may have seen will most likely be average compared to a Central African leopard, just based on skull data alone. Quote:I'm not sure what ID'ing he's done with Xavier, but regardless it doesn't give you the right to speak in a condescending tone. Did he do anything wrong? If so describe? Sure it doesn't give him the right to speak in such a "in a condescending tone" but @chui_ is definitely knowledgeable enough since he has experience by helping Xavier Hubert-Brierre.
This thread is now closed for 1-2 hours. Consider it as time out. Now whatever personal issues there are, try to handle those so, that focus can be again in informative postings and debates so, that debates are backed up with good information and reasoning. Sometimes minor things heat up things way too much. Now is a good time to cool down.
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