There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
This brown bear sow chased and caught an adult cow moose in our driveway May 6th '07. The bear was estimated to be about 500 lbs and the cow moose an older animal. After dragging the moose a ways the bear dug into the chest cavity and pulled the heart out and ate it. She then left but came back that night a few times looking for the moose which had been towed down the road by a state trooper and a fish and wildlife guy until the next in line on the moose kill list was notified to come salvage the meat.There is a lot of moose hair in the driveway you can see as it's being towed away.
10-08-2018, 10:44 PM( This post was last modified: 10-11-2018, 11:17 AM by ShadowEdit Reason: Little bit more information.
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Here is a link to video, where adult male moose has been killed by a brown bear in Russian Karelia 2015. Video is filmed near the summer cottage of a finnish man, who spends holidays there. He went to see the carcass with his neighbour who is old hunter living there, so experienced woodsman. In video you can see the area messed up in fight of bear and moose. That carcass is about 1,5 months old (estimation) and tracks showed, that there had been visited 2 adult bears and 2 cubs eating. Man is saying, that he won´t go closer because smell is hideous. Woman which can be heard is saying, that bear feces in many places nearby.
Just if you happen to have interest to see this kind of cases. Text and talking in finnish, so I think, that most people here won´t understand :)
Ps. This link to site giving some information about bears (also about wolf, wolverine and lynx) in Finland in english. Site is maintained and supervised by officials and wildlife experts, so information is valid.
(05-22-2018, 07:35 AM)Shir Babr Wrote: I was looking forward to this thread, but to put it mildly, is fanboyish. There are some appreciated and on point contributions, but most pages are filled by those dubious old stories about giant bears who would karate-chop charging bulls à la Masutatsu Oyama movie, pretended as proof of the brown bear prowess as predator. Are you kidding me?
Honestly, how is that different from statements by people from the same period of time or even later claiming that wolves and pumas were bloodthirsty man-eaters, that lions killed prey by breaking their necks with a paw strike, that a lion would jump a 2 meter tall fence carrying a bull in its mouth, a tiger killing a tusker or a wolverine killing a polar bear? Is nonsense!
Funny thing. In the same tales you have these monster bears that can kill any bull with a single paw swipe, whilst at the same time could be safely captured by three men with ropes or be overwhelmed by rats in the same type of events where a 12 kilo terrier would kill a hundred without risk...
In Spain people used to pit their bulls against wild animals, and according to them, the bull was victorious, while in America people claimed that bears were the winners. Isn't it weird? Is almost like people were biased towards their respective national animals... Not to mention how uneducated people were and have always been known for greatly exaggerate animal sizes and feats in a way to satanize them by pretending they're monsters and justify their slaughter, and present themselves as "brave hunters".
The difference is, there are videos of Spanish fighting bulls gutting horses bigger than themselves with a single gore. Unlike wild animals, these kind of bulls were artificially breed for aggression and wont back down even injured. Yet you claim that a brown bear can kill any bull hands down. Is just not realistic.
At this point I'm surprised you haven't claimed that those images of brown bears feeding on beached whales prove that they can capture big cetaceans...
Besides, is it supposed to be astounding that a big bear, protected by a lot of fat, that isn't psychologically inhibited to avoid injuries (that could hamper its abilities and lead it starvation), can displace lighter animals that can't afford such injuries? Is not, if they have an advantage is not because they're "better".
Big brown bears can only develop in northern places were highly nutritious food is plentiful, of easy access, and competition is low, i.e. only where salmon is a keystone species. So let's stop pretending that bears in the Southwest US were giants.
You even went as far as dismissing someone that brought up sloth bears, when in fact sloth bears are proportionally tougher because they evolved among larger predators and mega herbivores. They're also better armed than browns.
I'm curious about the cognitive dissonance when comparing those old wive's tales about grizzlies to the actual forensic and video evidence. Because in the videos posted here and many others I've watched, we have (mostly) successful predation on calves, piglets and small bears and cubs, attacks on weakened ungulates (like that boar that wasn't even trying to fight back), attempts on swimming (helpless) moose, and I remember a documentary where a grizzly attacked an already tired caribou (caribous aren't big) that had been previously injured by wolves, and the bear had a hard time bringing it down, even suffering a few antler blows, luckily antlers aren't as effective or deadly as bovine horns... even humans that have survived being mauled in the head. In all cases the bears used their (relatively short) canines -as all carnivores- as its main means to do damage. No great efficiency, no masterfully placed bull killing karate chops to be found neither. How telling.
I love brown bears, because they're an amazing polymorphic species, not because I anthropomorphize them as "fighters", neither I'm deluded to declare they're the most "badass" carnivores alive, when in fact, they're among the less carnivore and most mediocre predators in the Order.
And by the way, I'm just pointing out that this thread is mostly comprised of anecdotes unrelated to real bear predation; I don't mean to start one of those dumb and pointless "X vs. Y" discussions. I LOATHE THOSE. That's why I stopped visiting Carnivora forum years ago, there was nothing but fanboys irrationally cheering their favorite team. Just pointing out that the title is misleading and ought to be named "grizzly bear stories". Regards.
THE BEAR - History of a Fallen King - by Michel Pastoureau.
About #220: according to a common belief during the Middle Ages, the male brown bear was sexually attracted by the women. It grabed and raped them, and from this sexual intercourse some creatures, half-man half-bear, were born and were destined to become invincible warriors. This is perhaps one of the reasons which explains why the bear was considered as the king of the beasts before the lion.
(05-22-2018, 07:35 AM)Shir Babr Wrote: I was looking forward to this thread, but to put it mildly, is fanboyish. There are some appreciated and on point contributions, but most pages are filled by those dubious old stories about giant bears who would karate-chop charging bulls à la Masutatsu Oyama movie, pretended as proof of the brown bear prowess as predator. Are you kidding me?
Honestly, how is that different from statements by people from the same period of time or even later claiming that wolves and pumas were bloodthirsty man-eaters, that lions killed prey by breaking their necks with a paw strike, that a lion would jump a 2 meter tall fence carrying a bull in its mouth, a tiger killing a tusker or a wolverine killing a polar bear? Is nonsense!
Funny thing. In the same tales you have these monster bears that can kill any bull with a single paw swipe, whilst at the same time could be safely captured by three men with ropes or be overwhelmed by rats in the same type of events where a 12 kilo terrier would kill a hundred without risk...
In Spain people used to pit their bulls against wild animals, and according to them, the bull was victorious, while in America people claimed that bears were the winners. Isn't it weird? Is almost like people were biased towards their respective national animals... Not to mention how uneducated people were and have always been known for greatly exaggerate animal sizes and feats in a way to satanize them by pretending they're monsters and justify their slaughter, and present themselves as "brave hunters".
The difference is, there are videos of Spanish fighting bulls gutting horses bigger than themselves with a single gore. Unlike wild animals, these kind of bulls were artificially breed for aggression and wont back down even injured. Yet you claim that a brown bear can kill any bull hands down. Is just not realistic.
At this point I'm surprised you haven't claimed that those images of brown bears feeding on beached whales prove that they can capture big cetaceans...
Besides, is it supposed to be astounding that a big bear, protected by a lot of fat, that isn't psychologically inhibited to avoid injuries (that could hamper its abilities and lead it starvation), can displace lighter animals that can't afford such injuries? Is not, if they have an advantage is not because they're "better".
Big brown bears can only develop in northern places were highly nutritious food is plentiful, of easy access, and competition is low, i.e. only where salmon is a keystone species. So let's stop pretending that bears in the Southwest US were giants.
You even went as far as dismissing someone that brought up sloth bears, when in fact sloth bears are proportionally tougher because they evolved among larger predators and mega herbivores. They're also better armed than browns.
I'm curious about the cognitive dissonance when comparing those old wive's tales about grizzlies to the actual forensic and video evidence. Because in the videos posted here and many others I've watched, we have (mostly) successful predation on calves, piglets and small bears and cubs, attacks on weakened ungulates (like that boar that wasn't even trying to fight back), attempts on swimming (helpless) moose, and I remember a documentary where a grizzly attacked an already tired caribou (caribous aren't big) that had been previously injured by wolves, and the bear had a hard time bringing it down, even suffering a few antler blows, luckily antlers aren't as effective or deadly as bovine horns... even humans that have survived being mauled in the head. In all cases the bears used their (relatively short) canines -as all carnivores- as its main means to do damage. No great efficiency, no masterfully placed bull killing karate chops to be found neither. How telling.
I love brown bears, because they're an amazing polymorphic species, not because I anthropomorphize them as "fighters", neither I'm deluded to declare they're the most "badass" carnivores alive, when in fact, they're among the less carnivore and most mediocre predators in the Order.
And by the way, I'm just pointing out that this thread is mostly comprised of anecdotes unrelated to real bear predation; I don't mean to start one of those dumb and pointless "X vs. Y" discussions. I LOATHE THOSE. That's why I stopped visiting Carnivora forum years ago, there was nothing but fanboys irrationally cheering their favorite team. Just pointing out that the title is misleading and ought to be named "grizzly bear stories". Regards.
THE BEAR - History of a Fallen King - by Michel Pastoureau.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Yeah, that is all in the book mentioned. There were many reasons. The two most common animals on such things as banners and shields were the bear and the boar. Lions and tigers were, for the most part, unknown in Europe at this time. Because of so many bear cults spread throughout all of Europe, the Church actually declared war upon the bear and in the end, declared the lion as the new King of Beasts.
03-08-2019, 02:20 AM( This post was last modified: 03-08-2019, 02:29 AM by Wolverine )
(03-07-2019, 03:15 PM)brobear Wrote: THE BEAR - History of a Fallen King - by Michel Pastoureau.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
I've also red somewhere that Ancient Romans called brown bear "The King of the beasts" and that brown bears were victorious on the arenas against any other beast including lions. Romans were cruel people and they for sure knew the power relations between different animals much better than we know. But does Michel Pastoureau give any sources, from what Roman authors or texts he has got his information?? I would prefer to read the original Roman texts.
03-08-2019, 12:08 PM( This post was last modified: 03-08-2019, 12:10 PM by brobear )
I've also red somewhere that Ancient Romans called brown bear "The King of the beasts" and that brown bears were victorious on the arenas against any other beast including lions. Romans were cruel people and they for sure knew the power relations between different animals much better than we know. But does Michel Pastoureau give any sources, from what Roman authors or texts he has got his information?? I would prefer to read the original Roman texts. No, but a poster, Charger1 once posted some from it. He no longer posts on any of these sites because he got so fed-up with the fan-boy crap-fights. He posted where it told of the rhino killing the grizzly and some other stuff. It was translated into English, but worded - strangely for us. That was several years ago. He is among my facebook friends, so I can ask if he can still find it. Charger1 ( Thomas ) was, and still is I'm sure, a tiger enthusiast, but he and I could discuss the animals without any fights. Great guy. I will message him right now. Edit and add, you would probably enjoy "BEAR, History of a Fallen King". Low Price at Amazon.
03-10-2019, 05:57 AM( This post was last modified: 03-10-2019, 05:57 AM by Wolverine )
(03-07-2019, 03:15 PM)brobear Wrote: THE BEAR - History of a Fallen King - by Michel Pastoureau.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
According to Michel Pastoureau the largest brown bears in the Roman arenas were coming from Carphatians, Dinaria and Caledonia. Its known that Carphatian brown bear from Romania even today is among the largest Eurasian bears, but for me is new that bears from Scotland (than called Caledonia) who has disapeared a centuries ago were so large. This means probably that Scotish rivers were plenty of salmon, otherwise have no explanation.
Bears as Predators ~
