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Animal trainers
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I think the thing is though, is back in Beatty's time, tigers were harder to come by, there were far more lions around. So getting some big ones wasn't that hard. But I think its important to understand also that the tigers back then weren't mixed like they are now as much. His Bengals were straight Bengals, the Siberians were more pure bred, unlike now where there has been so many circus tigers used and bred for decades almost every captive tiger has Siberian mixed into them. Early on Beatty wanted to increase the numbers, if he didn't have enough tigers he'd just throw in more lions and more lioness's to fill up the arena. But pics later after the early 30s show a smaller more balanced act f about a dozen cats each.
So I think a purely bred Bengal in Beatty's time, not gorged doesn't always look so huge or thickly built. The Siberians as he said were bigger, I recall a particular one named Theba that he mentioned early on. There are also quite a few pics of Beatty with lions that look typically short and not that big compared to his size. From what Ive seen other people post on this that have looked into it, Beatty seemed to use untamed cats, he also got many from the wild as well, his whole act was could he survive this many cats situated in one ring, that was the drawing point for the ticket sales. The fans actually came to see if he might get hurt or die, handling untamed lions and tigers mixed of course makes it that much more dangerous. Early on Beatty wanted to increase the numbers, if he didn't have enough tigers he'd just throw in more lions and more lioness's to fill the ring, that's why some pics show mostly lions, it just depended whether at that time he had any tigers around. Here's some more pics of Beatty's tigers in his acts.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author There's about 9 tigers in this shot, 6 lions.  *This image is copyright of its original author 3 tigers two lions.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author It also depends on what side of the ring the shot is taken from, the two dark cats in silhouette in the foreground are sizeable tigers.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Beatty would often let in first 3 tigers to take the high seats, then the lions all together, and later the rest of the tigers. It appears in this photo, the picture is taken in the beginning of the act before the remaining tigers are let in. “In 1929. He followed the usual practice of letting in three tigers to take the high pedestals, and 20 lion:- and lionesses followed before he himself entered the safety gate. This period, he savs, although not realized the audience, is the high point of his- act. The animals mill around in the arena and Beatty’s job as he enters with whip, chair and revolver to take in.stan*, command and seat the animals. After he has - formed the living pyramid, he lets in the rest of the tigers.” https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/43641619/ The acts also can vary a lot, the 3 tigers are again seated on the high pedestals, the lions would be let in later, but in this particular show there is far more tigers.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author
 (03-30-2017, 04:37 PM)Rishi Wrote: About time we returned to topic!!! Whoaa man holy molly, this is some cool pics you guys gut in this thread, Ive heard of that guy Betty, great stuff. Sh!t load of cats in that rang. (12-14-2015, 11:56 PM)Pckts Wrote: Um liken that Bombay tiger, thang is pretty formidable bigleague to me. Seriously looks like a powerful tiger I'd have to say, great trainer stuff haven't heard of these guys before! (02-11-2016, 02:19 AM)Pckts Wrote: Next up is Courtney Ryley Cooper  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Ahh hey bro, just to let you no cool book and accounts & stuff, but I seen this one before, and that wrestling tiger Maybel Starks had was anything but a killer tiger. Tha thing was super small, like you said, born sick, no way it was slaying other full sized lions and tigers, I doubt that. They probally just said that stuff so when it jumped on Maybel the audience would think it was trying to attack her. But more like WWE wrestling tiger, not killer tiger, heh. (05-07-2017, 10:43 AM)Rishi Wrote:(05-07-2017, 09:22 AM)Garfield Wrote: Well they say it was 400lbs, just like they say it was a killer tiger, I'm just saying it wasn't tryin to kill her, it was super tame. It wasn't dangerous it all.  *This image is copyright of its original author
 (05-07-2017, 11:38 AM)Garfield Wrote:Quote: About he being tame, here's what he really used to do.. (Link ) Of Course It Wasn't Trying To Kill Her!!! Also, the tigers in the two photos are DIFFERENT (which apparently you can't tell) & both are CUBS, as young as 1-year-old. If one of them were her "Rajah" he could have easily, later in adulthood, reached 400lbs. Which i agree may not be that impressive, but that's what makes it easy. But..... YOU CAN'T JUST GO CALLING THE AUTHOR A LIAR or make those above statement i have emboldened, not with that level of "expertise". (05-07-2017, 01:04 PM)Rishi Wrote:(05-07-2017, 11:38 AM)Garfield Wrote:Quote: Hey bro, yeh, not sayin the author is lying just sayin most likely someone else told him the story so he may just be reapeating what he heard from somone else maybe a circus boss dude made it up. Becaz fo sure like youre saying, she raised that thing sick, sick cats don't grow as big usally, I heard that from somone no joke usually their size is stunted and body weakned, it probally should of been at least 480lbs not 400lb and my guess is it wasnt not even 400. That's why when you see the pics of it, you keep callin it a cub, but thats actually its full size she had white on when she wrestled it, cause of the mating jizz, , its a pretty famous cat so you can google all the pics of it. As far as it killin the other cats Maybel never said anything about this from another bro I saw debating this, she never spoke of it, so wed need a play by play of it, not just whoa this is killer tiger bro. And Ive seen some of these accounts debated on some other mad sites, and you gut a be skeptical. There just aint anyway a cat that shes sleepin with in a bed raisen from birth hangin in hotels, is that super tame, and its goin around slayin full size lions and tigers. Plus they say but with a string she can lead it around the ring in perfect safty, nah shes leadin it around because she raised the thing, yet they calling it a murderous tiger, I flunked math but this subtraction edition dont add up bro.
You guys probably seen this one but I figure it worth a repost, cuz I ain't never seen no other circus cat used for this trick. Lion pretty strong and sturdy to be able to hold this guy and leap in mid air with him. Um not sure if a tiger has ever done this.
 *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author Ok I just realized i posted this in the wrong thread I didnt realize it said captive weights, so I found a circus thread to post it back in sorry.  *This image is copyright of its original author And I think one thing that help the lion to do this is sometimes it have this really thick rear legs, super thick and chunky probably givin it a lot of power to hold these bros up on its back. This was Craig Busches lion, an I think Craig Busch is a pretty big dude. You can see here how strong the lions rear legs are, whoa.  *This image is copyright of its original author
 (03-30-2017, 08:45 AM)Haymaker Wrote: Ok, so is this the thread that were suppose to have debates in I was told?There is no such thing as being not bias. Everyone is always inclined to a side. Lion or tiger. Its pretty irrelevant if he likes tigers LOL. (05-05-2017, 09:24 AM)Garfield Wrote:What happened with tigers being "skinny"?(12-14-2015, 11:56 PM)Pckts Wrote: (12-04-2015, 06:21 PM)peter Wrote: 2 - Captive big cats This should back you up: "In order to detect tiger genes evolving under positive selection, we used the conserved genome synteny methodology19 (between human and other mammalian species (cat, dog, mouse and panda)) and a branch-site likelihood ratio test (Methods). A total of 178 positively selected genes out of 7,415 high-quality ortholog genes were identified in the Amur tiger (Supplementary Table S35, Supplementary Data 1). Functional categories for positively selected genes were over-represented in muscle filament sliding (GO:0030049, P=0.0049, Fisher's exact test, MYH7, TPM4 and TNNC2), filamentous actin (GO:0031941, P=0.0062, TPM4 and MYO1A) and stress fibre (GO:0001725, P=0.0039, MYH7, TPM4 and ACTN4) (Supplementary Table S36, Supplementary Data 2). We also identified GO categories, which are evolving under significantly high constraints19 (Supplementary Tables S37–S39, Supplementary Methods). Significantly altered Ka/Ks ratios of non-synonymous to synonymous substitutions for GO categories (P<0.01, Binomial test) revealed evidence of rapid evolution in the tiger for muscle strength (muscle contraction and actin cytoskeleton), energy metabolism (GTPase activity, ATP binding and energy reserve metabolic process), and sensory nerves (G-protein coupled receptor activity, olfactory receptor activity, visual perception and nervous system development)" https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3433 The specimen used was a 9 year old male amur tiger from Everland zoo. Go to table S42 to see everything.. https://images.nature.com/original/natur...433-s1.pdf Interesting to see. Obviously they are evolving for the worse. Use it or lose it. 
COOPER
Thanks for the link. Read the study yesterday. That is to say, I gave it a try. Although not that badly trained (Phd Geography), I have to admit I didn't understand one yota of what I saw. I know geography and magic are two different entities, but it is stunning to witness them formulas and all kinds of computations corrected for all kinds of errors flying all over the place time and again. Reading this type of study reminds me of watching Monty Python: after you saw an episode, you need some time to recover. I assume those involved in the study gave it their best, but I would recommend a course in transforming information into words and paragraphs that could be considered as accessable for the general public. An art in itself, I think. Conclusionwise, it wouldn't hurt to add a bit on reliability and reach as well. I mean, if only one Amur tiger was involved, chances are they caught the exception. Anyhow. Use it or lose it could be a decent summary, but we have to remember that we first need someone able in magic to get to any kind of conclusion. For now, I'd say the study, in a way, underlines that solitary big game hunters need to be able to adapt quickly to circumstances or else. In this respect, they could compare to us. Both are vulnarable. As to the remark on robustness of tigers and lions in the post you quoted. What I concluded, was based on what I saw in zoos and facilities in western Europe. The most robust tigers I saw were male Amur tigers. Most of them were larger (and heavier) than captive lions, but most lions were relatively as robust or even more so. This remark relates to head (circumference) and body (chest), not the neck, shoulders and limbs. Very large male lions can reach a weight of about 550 pounds (at least one was just over 600, but he was a white lion), but most males seem to range between 400-450 pounds. Male Amur tigers average 430-480 pounds, with some well over 600. In China and, perhaps, Korea, people could have a somewhat different idea about captive lions and tigers. The reason is quite a few large Amur tigers and a lot of smaller lions. I don't know why, but captive lions in that part of Asia seem to be smaller than in western Europe and the US. All bets are off when wild big cats come into play. Tigers just south of the Himalayas (Nepal and northern India) seem to be the largest and most robust wild big cats today, with central and southwestern India tied for second. Lions in southern parts of Africa are close. Kruger lions seem to be as heavy as Amur tigers, but the sample of Amur tigers is too small to get to conclusions. Crater lions could outaverage both (weight), but Kazirangha tigers also are very robust. Unknown entities for now. My guess is Gir lions are a bit underestimated. Same for Congo lions (now gone). I saw more than one skull with a greatest total length of 380,00 mm. and even slightly over from that region. Wild Amur tigers are unique in tigers in that they are smaller than their captive relatives. A result of habitat destruction, prey depletion and a population bottleneck in the twenties and thirties of the last century. Tigers respond to pressure by quickly losing size. Saw it in more than one region. If this is true, the opposite also is true. Today, the Russians are very serious about protection. Same for the Chinese, at least up north. When the conditions improve, chances are that males will get closer to the historic average (about 475 pounds) in one or two decades from now. In order to get there, the Russians need to tackle three problems: 60 000 hunters with a license, professional poachers and legislation. This thread is about trainers. Found anything of interest? Talked to people in the know? All of us are affected by preference, but there good information and there's something else. Over here, we like good information. It's there.
Tiger can do the same thing, but we rarely see these in the circus.
 *This image is copyright of its original author
"What we've found to be the case in the big cage may not be true of the veldt. There's a great difference between animals living in a six-by-ten foot cage and one exercising and fighting for his supper in the forest. For all i know, the tiger might be able to uncork a few surprises he cannot use within the confines of the arena bars."
-Clyde Beatty trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/169631002
BEWARE OF THE TIGER
This is the title of one episode of a Louis Theroux series on issues that made headlines. In the US, captive big cats did and still do. Time for a visit, Theroux concluded. One of the facilities he visited (JW, Oklahoma?) had over 160 captive tigers (...). The director, a former police officer, had invested everything he had in the facility. In spite of that, financial problems were always close. One way to get the bills paid is experiments. When the director explained Louis about an experiment in which a male lion and a tigress with a remarkable background feature, the male lion, protecting his girl, told them to move on. Now. Louis was impressed and so was the director. According to the director, the lion, when offered the opportunity, wouldn't kill him right away. Captive male lions play with their human victims. As long as possible. There's no salvation. A male lion confronted by armed keepers will cover his human victim with his body. The only way to get to the victim as fast as possible is to shoot the aggressor. As this is not easy, the director said he had instructed his staff to shoot him when a male lion would get hold of him. In line with the ideas of the trainers, keepers and directors I interviewed. They knew about captive male lions and my guess is the director of JW also knows. I'm not saying he witnessed an accident, but he was a bit too sure about captive male lions and humans. Just before Louis said goodbye, he was informed about another experiment. This time, the aim is to recreate a Pleistocene big cat. I visited a number of facilities in the northwestern part of Europe. I also saw a few documentaries and read a number of books. In my opinion, most directors of private facilities are quite similar. When they start, they have money. The problem is a lack of overview and, not sledom, a lack of knowledge. Sooner or later, financial problems emerge. In order to solve them, the owner often has no option but to do a few things he would have avoided when he would have had a choice. Not a few of us are quite tough when private facilities are discussed. My advice is to refrain from judgement. All owners I met are interested in animals. They know about the plight of wild animals and want to help in some way or another. The difference with others is they act when the opportunity offers itself. The problem is they often do not realize that a facility is not very different from any other business. As they often do not generate enough money to pay the bills, problems never are far away. When they realize that there's no way out, limits can evaporate. The Varty's of this world often struggle as a result of the reasons explained. I don't mind you raising your finger, as long as you remember they care. Going down as a result of a lack of overview and quality is different from going down as a result of bad intentions. Do the cats know? It depends. In the facilities I visited, most did. How do I know? I saw many, and I mean many, situations that could have ended in a tragic way. They never did, because the cats seemed to be able to distinguish between clumsyness and something else. I said 'most did', meaning not all. Meaning adult male lions are different from other big cats. Those who know about wild lions often talk with respect about them. There are plenty of examples of lions returning that respect. They know about the difference between different species of primates. For this reason, apart from a few regions, attacks on humans are few. Captive male lions, on the other hand, never had the opportunity to learn about that. When they see humans, they seem uninterested at best. When they're forced to work with them, I see a mix of fear, anger and something that seems to be close to disrespect. All captive big cats fear humans, but in male lions anger and disrespect seem as important, if not more so. Captive lions can't know about the African plains and nights, prides and the freedom to be a lion no matter what, can they? And yet they do. They also seem to sense we are involved in some way. The question is where the lack of respect started. |
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