There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(08-28-2014, 07:31 AM)'chaos' Wrote: That email was to Tigris. OK.............. Could the issue of fabrication or editing possibly
be a factor? Its common knowledge Paul's not exactly, ahhhh.....on the level shall I say.
Take the email away, you still have Christina specifically saying it was not weighed.
I also am curious why you don't say the same in regards to Bolds email??
Well if you looked at Christina's email, you''ll see the lion she referred to was captured in 2011.
The lion that was weighed, was after Christina had left. It's all there in the email from Almero
Bosch. Christinas info was outdated. It appears Roflcopters did a little research on it himself
and according to his earlier post in this very thread, concluded the weight is legit. Any further
questions? Of course some choose to refuse its legitimate. To each his own.
Guys, I think we have enlarged this theme of the 280/250 kg lion too much. There are other larger males on record (hunting ones, at least), so there is no point here.
I think that we should return to the point of the topic, which is the largest subspecies/population of lion in the present world.
I still think that the lions from Zimbabwe are the largest, according with the available data, although those from South Africa, overall, are very close to them.
(08-29-2014, 09:09 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote: Guys, I think we have enlarged this theme of the 280/250 kg lion too much. There are other larger males on record (hunting ones, at least), so there is no point here.
I think that we should return to the point of the topic, which is the largest subspecies/population of lion in the present world.
I still think that the lions from Zimbabwe are the largest, according with the available data, although those from South Africa, overall, are very close to them.
One point I'd like to make is that this Timbavati male is just one of many seemingly huge wild lions living in South Africa, so there's bound to be quite a few more specimens around this size.
(08-29-2014, 09:09 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote: Guys, I think we have enlarged this theme of the 280/250 kg lion too much. There are other larger males on record (hunting ones, at least), so there is no point here.
I think that we should return to the point of the topic, which is the largest subspecies/population of lion in the present world.
I still think that the lions from Zimbabwe are the largest, according with the available data, although those from South Africa, overall, are very close to them.
I agree Guate. Time to move on. I'm of the belief crater and/or okovangos could surpass the zimbabwe's
as the largest subspecies. Just not enough solid info as of yet to support that.
(08-29-2014, 04:26 PM)'chaos' Wrote: I'm of the belief crater and/or okovangos could surpass the zimbabwe's
as the largest subspecies. Just not enough solid info as of yet to support that.
Crater and Okavango lions are indeed large, but the problem is that there are no records of that area yet. The same analogy came for tigers (sorry to mention it here, but is my best example), as the largest tigers, according with witnesses are those from Kaziranga, but as there are no weights from there, Nepalese tigers still have the official record.
In this case, I could say, and I agree with you, that Crater and Okavango lions could be a little heavier on average than other populations, according with witnesses, but in plain numbers, Zimbabwe lions are still the heavier ones. On body measurements, I don’t see a large difference, in fact, although the Southern African lions are indeed longer, the difference on averages is minimal in comparison with those of East African and West Africa: 276 cm against 274 cm and 270 cm respectively, which is practically nothing.
In top records, both East and Southern African lions reach the same maximum lengths which are of c.310 cm between pegs, but those from West Africa and India also reach about the same lengths, which are of 294-297 cm respectively. I have found that the records of lions of 333 cm in total length in East Africa, often quoted in Guinness and by Tom Brakefield, are a wrong figure and a misconception of the original records, as in fact these are NOT measured between pegs, but the original text state that the length came from “skins pegged out”. Somehow, Guggisberg misunderstood this and he stated in his book that those were taken in straight line, when in fact it wasn’t the case.
(08-29-2014, 10:11 AM)'Richardrli' Wrote: One point I'd like to make is that this Timbavati male is just one of many seemingly huge wild lions living in South Africa, so there's bound to be quite a few more specimens around this size.
Yes, there is no doubt that other males over there can reach that weight, but for the moment, this is the first male that reaches this weight and based in a pretty large sample, recorded from several years.
Like Guate has said, it's possible for males to reach that weight (according to hunting records) but not verified. The only reason I wanted that to be shown was because Pantherinae used it as a verified record and Richard said it wasn't the same lion after I posted that it was estimated. I just wanted to clear up any misconceptions and post that proof of it being estimated and it being the same lion.
Back to the topic-
Zimbabwe lions seem to be the largest, but lions don't really change much according to body weight. One lion chart, had lions from all over and Kruger had the 3rd largest avg. population but it had the largest individual weight of the entire study.
African lions just don't seem to change much in terms of average size, outside of India and Waza of course.
08-29-2014, 09:33 PM( This post was last modified: 08-29-2014, 11:54 PM by Pckts )
(08-29-2014, 05:26 AM)'chaos' Wrote:
(08-28-2014, 09:30 PM)'Pckts' Wrote:
(08-28-2014, 07:31 AM)'chaos' Wrote: That email was to Tigris. OK.............. Could the issue of fabrication or editing possibly
be a factor? Its common knowledge Paul's not exactly, ahhhh.....on the level shall I say.
Take the email away, you still have Christina specifically saying it was not weighed.
I also am curious why you don't say the same in regards to Bolds email??
Well if you looked at Christina's email, you''ll see the lion she referred to was captured in 2011.
The lion that was weighed, was after Christina had left. It's all there in the email from Almero
Bosch. Christinas info was outdated. It appears Roflcopters did a little research on it himself
and according to his earlier post in this very thread, concluded the weight is legit. Any further
questions? Of course some choose to refuse its legitimate. To each his own.
Christina was absolutely there for the "ALLEGED" weighing, she wasn't there later on. The lion "ALLEGEDLY" (In caps for Kaos) weighed on 2011 is the specific lion that is being discussed. Backed by image dates and email dates. Almero Bosch email is not any more trust worthy than any others and he wasn't even there during the capture.
The end of the day, Christina was there, backed by date, pictures, her profile at the reserve is proof, here quotes are shown.
She is the end all in this conversation IMO, of course.
I don't know what info Copters has, but all the info that is available shows it to be estimated. If he or anybody else has something we haven't seen that proves it otherwise, I would be happy to accept it after we see it.
(08-28-2014, 07:31 AM)'chaos' Wrote: That email was to Tigris. OK.............. Could the issue of fabrication or editing possibly
be a factor? Its common knowledge Paul's not exactly, ahhhh.....on the level shall I say.
Take the email away, you still have Christina specifically saying it was not weighed.
I also am curious why you don't say the same in regards to Bolds email??
Well if you looked at Christina's email, you''ll see the lion she referred to was captured in 2011.
The lion that was weighed, was after Christina had left. It's all there in the email from Almero
Bosch. Christinas info was outdated. It appears Roflcopters did a little research on it himself
and according to his earlier post in this very thread, concluded the weight is legit. Any further
questions? Of course some choose to refuse its legitimate. To each his own.
Christina was absolutely there for the weighing, she wasn't there later on. The lion weighed on 2011 is the specific lion that is being discussed. Backed by image dates and email dates. Almero Bosch email is not any more trust worthy than any others and he wasn't even there during the capture.
The end of the day, Christina was there, backed by date, pictures, her profile at the reserve is proof, here quotes are shown.
She is the end all in this conversation IMO, of course.
I don't know what info Copters has, but all the info that is available shows it to be estimated. If he or anybody else has something we haven't seen that proves it otherwise, I would be happy to accept it after we see it.
Excuse me, am I missing something? Christina WAS there for the weighing? You've adamantly stated time and again
the lion WASNT weighed, and that WAS based on Christinas email. I need to terminate any further correspondence on
this. Its become a farce debating with you. You started the holiday weekend already, I see. Have another for me. lol
Enjoy the holiday Pockets!
The Timbavati Leopard Project ultimately reports back to Timbavati Nature Reserve headquarters, and a representative from the headquarters (who would know what's going on inside the park) has stated that this lion was weighed.
08-29-2014, 10:19 PM( This post was last modified: 08-29-2014, 10:40 PM by chaos )
(08-29-2014, 09:27 PM)'Pckts' Wrote: Like Guate has said, it's possible for males to reach that weight (according to hunting records) but not verified. The only reason I wanted that to be shown was because Pantherinae used it as a verified record and Richard said it wasn't the same lion after I posted that it was estimated. I just wanted to clear up any misconceptions and post that proof of it being estimated and it being the same lion.
Back to the topic-
Zimbabwe lions seem to be the largest, but lions don't really change much according to body weight. One lion chart, had lions from all over and Kruger had the 3rd largest avg. population but it had the largest individual weight of the entire study.
African lions just don't seem to change much in terms of average size, outside of India and Waza of course.
Thats not true at all. I've seen countless photos of malnourished lions, opposed to healthy ones.
Different regions reflect different weights. The common thread being food supply. During the dry
season, many lions loose weight as the migratory herds move on. In prey rich regions of S Africa,
lions grow larger and appear much more robust. As stated earlier in this thread, certain lion pops,
eg. crater and Okovango, haven't been stiudied enough to comparitively guage their size to lion
groups from other regions. Most agree these lions appear larger and more muscular.
08-29-2014, 11:40 PM( This post was last modified: 08-29-2014, 11:49 PM by Pckts )
(08-29-2014, 10:18 PM)'Richardrli' Wrote: The Timbavati Leopard Project ultimately reports back to Timbavati Nature Reserve headquarters, and a representative from the headquarters (who would know what's going on inside the park) has stated that this lion was weighed.
Once again, the reserve responsible, the people who were there, the photographs shown all show and say the lion was estimated.
Unless you have anything that proves otherwise, the lion was estimated.
(08-29-2014, 09:27 PM)'Pckts' Wrote: Like Guate has said, it's possible for males to reach that weight (according to hunting records) but not verified. The only reason I wanted that to be shown was because Pantherinae used it as a verified record and Richard said it wasn't the same lion after I posted that it was estimated. I just wanted to clear up any misconceptions and post that proof of it being estimated and it being the same lion.
Back to the topic-
Zimbabwe lions seem to be the largest, but lions don't really change much according to body weight. One lion chart, had lions from all over and Kruger had the 3rd largest avg. population but it had the largest individual weight of the entire study.
African lions just don't seem to change much in terms of average size, outside of India and Waza of course.
Thats not true at all. I've seen countless photos of malnourished lions, opposed to healthy ones.
Different regions reflect different weights. The common thread being food supply. During the dry
season, many lions loose weight as the migratory herds move on. In prey rich regions of S Africa,
lions grow larger and appear much more robust. As stated earlier in this thread, certain lion pops,
eg. crater and Okovango, haven't been stiudied enough to comparitively guage their size to lion
groups from other regions. Most agree these lions appear larger and more muscular.
"Thats not true at all"
*This image is copyright of its original author
Yes it absolutely is true.
Notice once again, Kruger has the 3rd highest average and yet it still has the Largest lion weighed at 225kg.
08-29-2014, 11:52 PM( This post was last modified: 08-29-2014, 11:57 PM by Pckts )
(08-29-2014, 10:07 PM)'chaos' Wrote:
(08-29-2014, 09:33 PM)'Pckts' Wrote:
(08-29-2014, 05:26 AM)'chaos' Wrote:
(08-28-2014, 09:30 PM)'Pckts' Wrote:
(08-28-2014, 07:31 AM)'chaos' Wrote: That email was to Tigris. OK.............. Could the issue of fabrication or editing possibly
be a factor? Its common knowledge Paul's not exactly, ahhhh.....on the level shall I say.
Take the email away, you still have Christina specifically saying it was not weighed.
I also am curious why you don't say the same in regards to Bolds email??
Well if you looked at Christina's email, you''ll see the lion she referred to was captured in 2011.
The lion that was weighed, was after Christina had left. It's all there in the email from Almero
Bosch. Christinas info was outdated. It appears Roflcopters did a little research on it himself
and according to his earlier post in this very thread, concluded the weight is legit. Any further
questions? Of course some choose to refuse its legitimate. To each his own.
Christina was absolutely there for the weighing, she wasn't there later on. The lion weighed on 2011 is the specific lion that is being discussed. Backed by image dates and email dates. Almero Bosch email is not any more trust worthy than any others and he wasn't even there during the capture.
The end of the day, Christina was there, backed by date, pictures, her profile at the reserve is proof, here quotes are shown.
She is the end all in this conversation IMO, of course.
I don't know what info Copters has, but all the info that is available shows it to be estimated. If he or anybody else has something we haven't seen that proves it otherwise, I would be happy to accept it after we see it.
Excuse me, am I missing something? Christina WAS there for the weighing? You've adamantly stated time and again
the lion WASNT weighed, and that WAS based on Christinas email. I need to terminate any further correspondence on
this. Its become a farce debating with you. You started the holiday weekend already, I see. Have another for me. lol
Enjoy the holiday Pockets!
Obviously a misprint Chaos. [img]images/smilies/dodgy.gif[/img]
Take note, I show data, images, emails, Chaos shows^^^
Once again, in case there are any misunderstandings,
The lion was NOT weighed until PROVEN otherwise.
Largest Living wild lions ?
