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Polar · 07-07-2016, 04:51 AM

No one, and I repeat, no one can determine a 2000-pound bear from a 2500-pound bear at a intensive stare from a photograph. They both are just heavy as can be for their species. A 1000-pound man doesn't look any different from a 1400-pound man from a pictoral glance.

Again, like I and Pckts suggested earlier, limb and chest measurements (and possibly other parts to determine weight) should be taken into account. We can then work from there.

As for Brotherbear, you are right that polar bears grow larger in the wild and vice-versa for other bear species (haven't we discussed this earlier?) But here, we are taking only wild bears, not captive ones.

So far, the biggest brown bear is of the Kodiak specimens (~1600 pounds?) and of the giant Kotzebue polar bear, it is uncertain, but I am guessing 1600-2000 pounds.

Polar · 07-07-2016, 05:02 AM

(07-07-2016, 04:47 AM)Pckts Wrote: You keep saying this...
"the heaviest polar bear weighed 1,541 pounds while the heaviest confirmed Kodiak bear weighed 1,653 pounds. "

But that is incorrect, you have multiple polar bears weighing 2000lbs plus and you still are unable to show me how the kodiak was weighed nor his body measurements, the same protocol you are asking for the polar bear you are refusing to accept are not being used for the kodiak bear you're accepting.

You also don't know how a kodiak would respond to a strictly carnivorous diet, especially a blubber rich diet. Polar bears have traveled down a different evolutionary path and thus their adaptions will not turn into automatic advantages for another bear. The bears also have morphological differences and while they may be "similar" they certainly aren't the same.

I agree that blubber will raise the brown bear's normal weight higher, but still not as high as the polar bear's normal weight. As Pckts suggested, polar bears could have genes which just automatically makes them heavier than a brown bear given an equal diet, but I don't know about the genealogy of polar bears. However, I definitely know almost everything else about their physicality and habits.

I think Brotherbear meant that the heaviest well-documented polar bear is 1541-pounds, but there definitely were ones ranging over 2000-pounds back then. Again, the Kotzebue specimen is not well-documented at all, or maybe its info is hidden and kept somewhere within a filing cabinet. Who knows? Same can be with the maximum Kodiak.

Well-documented measurements of animals usually provide the girths of various body parts, total length/height, as well as the weight if the system of weight-bearing is conclusive.

Pckts · 07-07-2016, 05:06 AM

Boone and crocket recognizes skull size and since the polar bear was cracked they didn't recognize it but that has nothing to do with body weight.
And the polar bears skull exists, it's body is mounted and its weight is accepted.

Polar · 07-07-2016, 05:21 AM

The Boone and Crocket Skull collection is not biased towards any bear in general, but it seems to skip over a few distinctions between skulls of different bears species. It only takes the length and width of the skull regardless of configuration.

For one, polar bear skulls have an increased condylobasal length/width ratio than any other modern bear skulls. Two, polar bears have a smaller head for their body size than a brown bear and panda.

@Pckts,

What do you mean "the polar bear was cracked"? Do you mean its skull?

Also, is "the polar bear skull exists" a reference to the Kotzebue specimen?

Pckts · 07-07-2016, 07:03 AM

Correct @Polar
The skull was cracked during the treating procedure and thus was unable to be used in the Boone and crocket scoring system but it still exists.

~~brotherbear~~ · 07-07-2016, 12:55 PM

The Boone and Crocket Skull collection is not biased towards any bear in general, but it seems to skip over a few distinctions between skulls of different bears species. It only takes the length and width of the skull regardless of configuration.

For one, polar bear skulls have an increased condylobasal length/width ratio than any other modern bear skulls. Two, polar bears have a smaller head for their body size than a brown bear and panda.

*I agree Polar. Even among brown bears, a bigger skull does not mean a bigger bear. But, skull-size is the best that the Boone and Crockett Club could come up with as a substitute for actual body measurements and weights. Sport-hunters do not carry the equipment needed to weigh a 1,000+ pound bear. Neither skull size nor footprint size determines the size of the bear.

~~brotherbear~~ · 07-07-2016, 01:10 PM

http://shaggygod.proboards.com/

In Hudson Bay, the mean scale weight of 94 males >5 years of age was 489 kg. The largest bear in that group was a 13-year-old, which weighed 654 kg (Kolenosky et al. 1992). The heaviest bear we have weighed in Alaska was 610 kg, and several animals were heavy enough that we could not raise them with our helicopter or weighing tripod. Some animals too heavy to lift have been estimated to weigh 800 kg (DeMaster and Stirling 1981). Females are smaller, with peak weights usually not exceeding 400 kg. Total lengths of males in the Beaufort Sea of Alaska ranged up to 285 cm. Such an animal may reach nearly 4 m when standing on its hind legs and is 1.7 m shoulder height when standing on all four legs. Chest girth for large males is close to 200 cm. Although smaller, females in the Beaufort sea were as long as 247 cm with chest girths up to 175 cm. Only prehistoric polar bears and the giant short-faced bear (Arctodus spp.) of the Pleistocene were of greater stature than today's polar bears (Kurten 1964; Stirling and Derocher 1990).

Manning (1971) suggested there is a cline in size of polar bears across the Arctic. Size increases, he suggested, with distance from east Greenland across the Nearctic to the Chukchi Sea between Alaska and Russia. Manning (1971) also suggested that polar bears from Svalbard may be larger than those from east Greenland. A cline in size across the Palearctic also might occur, but samples from the Russian Arctic are inadequate to confirm it (Manning 1971).

The hypothesized cline was based on measurements made from skulls housed in museums around the world. Unfortunately, the sources of skulls in the various collections were not similar. Of particular note was that many of the skulls originating in the Chukchi Sea may have been donated by trophy hunters. These hunters worked over the ice in teams of aircraft (Tovey and Scott 1957) and were quite effective in killing a great number of the largest polar bears (Amstrup et al. 1986). Another potential problem is that ages of bears in the sample were estimated only by class or life stage. Hence, older bears from one locale might have been compared to younger bears (of the same age class) in another.

Potentially non standardized collection methods prevent any meaningful conclusions about relative sizes of polar bears from different locales. Also, if there is a cline in skull sizes around the world, it appears that body sizes and weights of polar bears do not follow a similar cline. The largest bears for which actual scale weights are known have come from the Hudson and James Bay areas of Canada and from the Beaufort Sea of Alaska, not from the Chukchi Sea. That observation, too, may be subject to some bias, as the most prolonged and intensive polar bear studies have been conducted in Hudson Bay and the Beaufort Sea. Greater numbers of captures in those locations may have increased the probability that very large bears were included in the sample.

Here is the problem. A polar bear was weighed in at 610 kg ( 1,345 pounds ) and another at 654 kg ( 1,442 pounds ). These two huge bear weights are confirmed. Those bears too heavy to be weighed have estimated weights, thus unconfirmed. Again, I am not arguing that a polar bear can outweigh a brown bear.

~~brotherbear~~ · 07-07-2016, 01:16 PM

http://shaggygod.proboards.com/

Largest live bear handled by usfg was just in 2013 I believe - 1398 lbs - about same size as largest confirmed in churchill

~~brotherbear~~ · 07-07-2016, 01:25 PM

http://shaggygod.proboards.com/

The polar bear is the largest land carnivore with adult males measuring up to 280 cm in length, and up to 160 cm in height at its shoulders. Males typically weigh 400-600 kg, although the weight of an adult male has reached 800 kg in some reported cases. Females are smaller and lighter (130-300 kg), however, the weight of a pregnant female going into a den may reach 500 kg.

800 kg = 1,764 pounds.

Pckts · 07-07-2016, 09:27 PM